Bonneville America Forums Forums Technical Forums General Tech Starter turns, engine doesn't......

Hi, new to the site, hope someone has some thoughts on what could be wrong...
I have a 2005 America, started it up inside my garage, rode it down the drive way, shut it off to walk back and close the garage up and front gate, got back on, turned everything back on, hit the starter button, just a high pitched whine from the starter. Sounded as if the starter was spinning, just hadn't engaged the engine. I bought it used with 12500 miles on it 6 months ago, now has 15k, so far I have only changed the oil on it. It has run perfectly till now, any thoughts would be greatly appreciated although it sounds like I may have stripped a gear or need a new starter. Waiting on a Haynes for it before i tear it apart, but any thoughts would be greatly appreciated before I go that far,
Thanks
Max

are u sure u got sound from starter motor not from solenoid under side cover?

Max, first check to see if your battery cable connections are bolted up tight or that they're not worn, oxidized or frayed, so as to allow full current to flow from it.

Another member here recently had a very similar occurrence happen to him, and that's all it turned out to be. There wasn't enough juice flowing to the starter solenoid in order to fully activate the sprag clutch and engage engine turnover.

Here's the thread about that incident:

http://www.bonnevilleamerica.com/forums/...rt=all&vc=1

Thanks for the information, I checked the cables, it's all in good shape, the solenoid activates (clicks once) when the starter button is pressed and clicks off when button is released. The battery read 12.7 V, but I put a charger on and tried it, same high pitch whine from the starter. I think the sprag clutch might be shot as it sounds like the starter does spin. Waiting on the manual now, and will disassemble when it arrives.

Two things. If you suspect either one, try not to engage the starter anymore without a visual inspection via removal of the left engine cover.

Springs and Shafts:
Martlet "I had it (03 America ) for 2 days and put 100 miles on it. I loved it. It rode great, looked great, and was comfortable. Then I went to the store, came out, and the starter just whined. Supposedly a starter gear fell off, rattled around and damaged the case."

Dinqua "That is what can possibly happen if you don't put the little springy washer back in right. or if they did the clutch springs and "forgot" to put the little starter gear shaft back in too. They busticated it originally I would bet. There is no possible way that gear can fall off without help."

Shafted:
Dill "I turn onto 43 and start up my favorite uphill winding turn. I'm really letting her go. And suddenly the oil light comes on and she's slowing down. Not good. And its dead. I tried everything to no avail. I did get her to catch twice but it died quickly. Also I got the biggest backfire/airbox KaBoom, ever so add that to the list. After the kaboom the starter isn't engaging. So I start pushing back to the nearest phone.

Ok I just talked to the service writer. We have serious carnage. The clutch didn't seem right to them. (note this might not be completely accurate, the service writer is not a tech.)
Anyway the case protrusions holding the clutch in place broke, allowing the clutch to leave its original position and its now all resting quite a bit from where it belongs.
So they are trying to get some new cases under warranty, they have never seen this happen before.
I'm hoping to talk to them about a loaner since this will be a while. And there was no spark but they haven't even started to play with that.

The igniter failed (Rob Shelly didn't want me to tell you this), causing the bike to die. But the failure was intermittent which allowed me to fire it quickly twice. Evidently there was enough gas built up that the backfire blew the sprag clutch mount back through the case into the other side of the motor. [*note: thus the paragraph title]
Triumph is aware of this happening very rarely (Like I said they have a standard bonnie in with the same problem). And they have beefed up the cases to prevent this from happening again.
I guess this explains why it was the loudest ****** back fire I have ever heard. "

Stupid question, does the oil need to be drained before removing the cover?

yes

Just as an aside, mine has been having a fault. I leave it for a week go to start it and just get a click. I check the battery - 13.02 volts, so I know it's not a flat battery. I try it twice more and still just a click front the front. I move it outside and 30-40 mins later in the sun I try it again, it starts 1st time. This has done this 3 times to me and I had Triumph dealer look at it and they were baffled to. In the end they changed the solid state relay under the tank. This seems to have sorted the problem, but it has been only a week since the relay replacement.
Just thought you guys might like to know about this issue.

its known issue

Taking the cover off today, will let you know what I find. Thanks for all the help, glad I found the site!
Max

Good luck Max,and welcome to the site.

Well I got the cover off, and the collar that's part of the cover is broken off exactly as the pic shows in Dwight's link above. There was just one piece that broke off and I have it, still need to unjam the starter gear but I think I'm looking at a new cover, possibly 2 gears and maybe even a starter - it still works but the gear looks like it's stripped. The only upside was how easily it all came off, I was concerned I would break some of the case bolts, little 8mm heads, but no issues at all.

Bad to worse....the inside collar is broken too....so now I have a busted engine case as well. I can't find the piece(s) either, I was thinking I might be able to weld the cover but it looks like cast aluminum - almost like pig iron, too thin. The gears and starter look fine, the inside of the engine case is worn a little but nothing serious.
So now what, a call to the local dealer who will no doubt tell me they've never heard of such a thing happening but will gladly repair it for $xxx. Looks like I now own an expensive sea anchor.

A number of those have been fixed for free or at least the parts covered by Triumph. Check with a dealer, ask about a "goodwill claim". They beefed up that area in '06 or '07.

If you don't have any luck with Triumph on a "goodwill claim" try Pinwall Cycle for various engine parts. You could also call them up to combine parts you need.

Thanks for the help everyone, I'll see what the dealer says tomorrow, I need to see what's involved in taking the engine apart to get to that part of the engine case that needs to be replaced.

I wouldn't disassemble it any farther until you hear from the dealer and Triumph on a good will repair.

Such a bummer! Some (but not many) here have had the same problem and Triumph came through for them even when out of warranty. Push the issue with the dealer and hopefully you too will get it fixed via goodwill.

Thought members might like to know what has happened with my bike after the starter spindle broke its housing collars on both crank case and clutch cover.
I took the cover to show my local Triumph dealer who were familiar with the problem. They had recently repaired a Speedmaster for $1800 in labor, Triumph paid for the parts. I talked to Triumph about goodwill help given this is a design problem, their response was that as I was the 3rd owner, had no maintenance records and it's 5 years old any help was unlikely but didn't rule it out. A new crank case was going to be $3400.
I removed the starter, gear and spindle, found the broken parts in the sump and thought about what could be done. The aluminum seemed too thin and porous to weld but I noticed the spindle was hollow - 15/64" according to my mic....so why not try and pin the spindle in place? I took the bike to a machinist, had them bore a hole in the crankcase and the new cover ($330 for a cover I was told had been beefed up as a result of these problems but wasn't any different to the original one, slightly smaller than the new pin. The pin is a turned down grade 8 hardened steel bolt that fits the spindle exactly and had to be lightly tapped in place. Anyway, after getting everything back in place, new gaskets, oil etc., pressed the starter buttom and she fired up as she's supposed to. Road her around a while see if there were any leaks, stopped and started a number of time see if all was good....and fingers crossed she seems to be holding up. Time will tell if this is a permanent fix.

Max,

You are the first to try to repair this problem and succeed. Do you have any pictures of the repair process? Would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you for the update....there is hope

Wow! I'm glad to hear you might have this hellova problem all sorted out now. I couldn't believe that $3,400 price on the crank case. That's Nuts.

Max,

Some more questions/ideas.
1. When you drilled another hole in the crankcase, did you go right through? If so, what will hold the new "spindle pin" in place?
2. Is the crankcase thick enough to tap and thread a stud, in place of the new pin you made? The new stud would be slightly smaller than the spindle and would fit in a coresponding hole drilled in the case cover. The idler gear and spindle would ride on this similar to what you already did?
3. Do you think the area would benefit from an epoxy based metal repair/reinforcement such as Devcon Plastic Steel?

Once again, this is good news and thanks.

Hi Max,
I was one w/ a 2005 SM that pulled the same trick 1 month after I got it w/ 6,000 mi. on it. It was completely covered out of warranty by TR, but I am told that now TR will cover only parts, no labor. However that's still workable since my mechanic told me the entire job would have been $7,000 retail (that's not a typo!!) Sea anchor is no exaggeration! This should be covered because it is a manufacturing fault - the castings were drilled off center, thereby creating a weak side to the socket for the idler gear shaft. The second problem is the backfiring caused by the computer, mine was replaced along w/ the crankcase repair. Moral of the story - don't touch your throttle while starting, and keep your engine properly tuned! I'm now at 14,000 mi. and she runs like a scared rabbit! Good luck w/ it.

The $$$ being thrown around to fix the bike were scary especially when you consider a new bike isn't a whole lot more and I only paid $4500 for it in the first place.
I did take a couple of pics, will post them once I figure out how to do it.
answers to your Qs Gregger....
I didn't drill all the way through, although if you look behind the starter it looks as though there is additional aluminum there but I couldn't tell if it was directly behind the spindle housing. It was drilled about 3/8" deep and 7/32" wide which is slightly smaller than the pin at 15/64 so tight enough to hold the pin in place. We thought about putting some red loctite too, but that might make it harder to get out if I needed to. The same hole size was done on the new cover too, so that size has the normal sleeve for the spindle plus the pin.
I think you could drill and tap it, the aluminum alloy they use appears to be a fairly low grade material - my machinist told me it was like pot metal - so it should be easy to tap with a blind hole tap.
I was thinking the same thing re Devcon/JB Weld or even using high temp adhesive and gluing a sleeve around the outside of the collar. I was disappointed to see the cover had the same sized collar - particularly after the dealer told me the 2006 on models were beefed up in that area. We were going to add some gussets but the welder was concerned about the grade of aluminum he was going to be welding on and thought he might do more damage than good.
I will probably do an early oil change just to check on it all and make sure the pin isn't making a small hole bigger and dropping metal filings into the oil!
Hope this helps
Max

After recently going through a small scare thinking I had the same problem, this is great news for everyone with an older bike.

Thanks for the post!

I can't wait to see the pix so I can get my head around exactly what you did. I think I understand but not sure. I have 2 older bikes an 04 BA and an 04 SM. 25,000 on my SM now not sure exactly what is on Wendy's BA now but either one could have this failure and I don't have thousands to fix it.

Pics will be great and save many members lots of heartache.

Max, many thanks for the update and answers. I missed the fact that you purchased a new cover ($330 is a lot of cash). Next time try Pinwall Cycle for used parts. They have complete engines available along with the side covers (none available at this time). If the fix doesn't hold out, a used engine for $1200 is a serious option given the fact that the other fellow you mentioned paid $1800 just for the labour portion of the repair.

Thanks for all the suggestions and support. I put a couple of pics here which show what I did http://s751.photobucket.com/albums/xx151/maxkirby/Triumph%20spindle%20fix/

After riding it yesterday for a little bit I put a sheet under the bike to see if it leaked anywhere and this morning it was fine. I went out for a 45 min run at lunch time today, stopping and starting a number of times without incident. Fingers crossed for the future!
Cheers
Max

Thanx, the image is much more clear with the pix.

So I just took my bike apart and I have exactly the same problem!! Very Sad. So is your bike still holding up with the pin drilled into the case - I think that will be the way to go - I have to do something and a whole new case is too much $$$. Do you think you could dril the hole into the old cover and it still hold? looks like it might be too thin - How deep was the hole on the cover side? THANKS for you posts - at least I have an idea of what I have ahead of me.

You can try some of this stuff...
http://www.aluminumrepair.com/index.asp
I just ordered some to braze an air cleaner for a six pack I'm putting together for my truck.