 Head-ed to the recycling bin.
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Joined: Sep 2007
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Learned Hand
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OP
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Well i've discovered the source of a clattering noise that has been slowly getting more pronounced and really bugging me. It brought to mind a story i remembered reading here a year and a half ago. Turns out to be a nearly identical scenario... http://www.bonnevilleamerica.com/forums/...true#Post352382I've noticed this noise for about 5,000 miles or so. When i installed it originally,(with the 904 and cams) it had 15,000 miles on it. It now shows @ 55,000 miles. Apparently these heads can be worn out at 40,000 miles. 
Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come; He will guide you in all truth:
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 Re: Head-ed to the recycling bin.
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Joined: Mar 2008
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Not good! 
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Re: Head-ed to the recycling bin.
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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If you're talking about the cam saddles...I wonder if a machine shop could build it up and line bore the thing just a thought .. dunno much about metallurgy and the such.
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Re: Head-ed to the recycling bin.
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Joined: Aug 2007
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,736 Likes: 7 |
That just flat out sucks Rob. I have some tick noise in mine also, but I think it's because I haven't had a valve adjustment in 13thousand miles. Hope that's what it is, anyway.
Always remember to be yourself. Unless you suck. Then pretend to be someone else.
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Re: Head-ed to the recycling bin.
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Joined: Apr 2007
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Don't forget to check the Backlash springs in the camshaft drive gears (follow all the videos in order). Lonzo posted this link some time ago. You should also make sure your valve chain adjustment spring isn't broken which could give you some clatter.
12 Rocket Roadster
03 Bonneville America
69 BSA Firebird Scrambler
73 Yamaha TX 750
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Re: Head-ed to the recycling bin.
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Joined: May 2007
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: May 2007
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Quote:
If you're talking about the cam saddles...I wonder if a machine shop could build it up and line bore the thing just a thought .. dunno much about metallurgy and the such.
Yes, I think a good speed shop could put a new slug in and line bore it to match. But, as it was with your original post I wonder if the culprit isn't the camshaft itself? If so the repair has to entail both items.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Head-ed to the recycling bin.
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,668
Learned Hand
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OP
Learned Hand
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Quote:
I have some tick noise in mine also, but I think it's because I haven't had a valve adjustment in 13thousand miles. Hope that's what it is, anyway.
That's what i thought, but several attempts at adjusting the valves only seemed to change the noise very little. Good luck with yours.
Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come; He will guide you in all truth:
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Re: Head-ed to the recycling bin.
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,668
Learned Hand
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OP
Learned Hand
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Quote:
Don't forget to check the Backlash springs in the camshaft drive gears (follow all the videos in order). Lonzo posted this link some time ago. You should also make sure your valve chain adjustment spring isn't broken which could give you some clatter.
I already have everything apart and can confirm that those items were just fine. Bolting the cams in with no buckets or shims allows me to "rock" the cams up and down in their caps/saddles @ .007 in. at each end.
Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come; He will guide you in all truth:
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Re: Head-ed to the recycling bin.
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964
Stickman Yogi
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Stickman Yogi
Joined: Mar 2009
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Chy's thread "Tick, tick, tick," and now this leads me to wonder if this is a time bomb waiting to go off for all of us. Sorry to hear about your demise there Rob.
Live to love, love to live.
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Re: Head-ed to the recycling bin.
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
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I haven't liked the fact that there are no bearing shells in the head for the cam to ride in since I first found out. Talk about a difference in price and work to fix between the 2!
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Head-ed to the recycling bin.
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Joined: Jan 2008
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Jan 2008
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Quote:
Quote:
Don't forget to check the Backlash springs in the camshaft drive gears (follow all the videos in order). Lonzo posted this link some time ago. You should also make sure your valve chain adjustment spring isn't broken which could give you some clatter.
I already have everything apart and can confirm that those items were just fine. Bolting the cams in with no buckets or shims allows me to "rock" the cams up and down in their caps/saddles @ .007 in. at each end.
that is not to best news. I have thought about this particular repair several times when it has come up. I think that if I were to have to address this, I would line bore the cam bearings to just clean up and them build up the cam journals and grind them to the correct clearence. There is very little room in these heads to attempt to use an insert or bearing shell. Just my thoughts on the machine work.
one other thing to check is the excess clearence only top to bottom? or all of the way around? If it is directional, and top to bottom then the caps could be milled off and then line bored to correct size. probably the easiest fix if applicable.
05 speedmaster - 1100cc, 11:1 racing pistons, Carillo rods, thunderbike cams, ported and polished head, 2mm over intake and exhaust valves, Barnett kevlar clutch, scepter pipes, oversize manifolds, 45mm HSR's, TTP stage 4 firestarter
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Re: Head-ed to the recycling bin.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Quote:
If it is directional, and top to bottom then the caps could be milled off and then line bored to correct size.
Thats a good idea. I wonder if over-torqued cam cover bolts would distort the caps at all.
Never liked the idea of those bolts going into the caps.
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Re: Head-ed to the recycling bin.
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Joined: Sep 2007
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Learned Hand
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OP
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I'm gonna have a well qualified engine builder have a look at it and see what he thinks about it.
Seems to me that effectively lowering the cam in the head would cause problems when trying to adjust the valves... the shims likely would be thinner than the range we currently have to work with. Maybe "tipping" the valves could accomodate that, but there's also the issue of the cam cover bolting to the now-shorter cam caps... Would that create a problem leading to a leaky cam cover? Just a couple of thoughts i've had. I'm sure there is a way to rectify this problem but it's gonna require careful thinking.
Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come; He will guide you in all truth:
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Re: Head-ed to the recycling bin.
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: Jan 2005
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Take the baffles out of your pipes - no more ticking noises! 
A word to the wise is not necessary. It is the stupid ones who need the advice.
Pat
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Re: Head-ed to the recycling bin.
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Joined: Sep 2007
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Learned Hand
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OP
Learned Hand
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Quote:
Take the baffles out of your pipes - no more ticking noises!
 I haven't had baffles for years!
Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come; He will guide you in all truth:
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Re: Head-ed to the recycling bin.
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Joined: Jan 2008
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Quote:
Quote:
If it is directional, and top to bottom then the caps could be milled off and then line bored to correct size.
Thats a good idea. I wonder if over-torqued cam cover bolts would distort the caps at all.
Never liked the idea of those bolts going into the caps.
the hollow dowel pins in the caps keep the screws from twisting the caps when tightened.
05 speedmaster - 1100cc, 11:1 racing pistons, Carillo rods, thunderbike cams, ported and polished head, 2mm over intake and exhaust valves, Barnett kevlar clutch, scepter pipes, oversize manifolds, 45mm HSR's, TTP stage 4 firestarter
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Re: Head-ed to the recycling bin.
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Joined: May 2007
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: May 2007
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Quote:
I'm gonna have a well qualified engine builder have a look at it and see what he thinks about it.
You live in hot rod heaven so a good builder ought to be able to give you great guidance.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Head-ed to the recycling bin.
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Quote:
the hollow dowel pins in the caps keep the screws from twisting the caps when tightened.
I was thinking more along the lines of pulling the caps slightly egg-shaped a few hundred thousandths. About due for valve check, I'm going to study that when I'm in there.
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Re: Head-ed to the recycling bin.
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Joined: Sep 2007
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Learned Hand
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OP
Learned Hand
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Quote:
About due for valve check, I'm going to study that when I'm in there.
A tip for checking for this problem is to gently pry up on the end of the cams with a big flat tip screwdriver while watching for movement at the cam "bearing" journals.
You could also make a note of all your valve clearances then adjust only one of the outermost valves on each cam, then recheck all of the clearances, especially at the opposite ends of the cam from the ones you adjusted. If there is significant wear at the journals then those other clearances will have changed even though you didn't adjust them.I hope that makes sense...
Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come; He will guide you in all truth:
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Re: Head-ed to the recycling bin.
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Joined: Apr 2007
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Apr 2007
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Have you miked the cam journals to see if they are out of round? In your original link the bearing diameter was oversized but the journal was also oval. What came first?
12 Rocket Roadster
03 Bonneville America
69 BSA Firebird Scrambler
73 Yamaha TX 750
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Re: Head-ed to the recycling bin.
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Joined: Aug 2009
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Maybe you can over bore the cam journals and install some bronze bushings/bearings that are held with a pin (to keep it from spinning)? You can install the bearings and line bore it back to stock specs.
'04' Black America
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Re: Head-ed to the recycling bin.
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,248 Likes: 64
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,248 Likes: 64 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Don't forget to check the Backlash springs in the camshaft drive gears (follow all the videos in order). Lonzo posted this link some time ago. You should also make sure your valve chain adjustment spring isn't broken which could give you some clatter.
I already have everything apart and can confirm that those items were just fine. Bolting the cams in with no buckets or shims allows me to "rock" the cams up and down in their caps/saddles @ .007 in. at each end.
that is not to best news. I have thought about this particular repair several times when it has come up. I think that if I were to have to address this, I would line bore the cam bearings to just clean up and them build up the cam journals and grind them to the correct clearence. There is very little room in these heads to attempt to use an insert or bearing shell. Just my thoughts on the machine work.
one other thing to check is the excess clearence only top to bottom? or all of the way around? If it is directional, and top to bottom then the caps could be milled off and then line bored to correct size. probably the easiest fix if applicable.
I agree completely, I just think it would have been a better design to have replaceable bearings from the factory. A replacement head with bearings would be a good investment, too bad one isn't available.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Head-ed to the recycling bin.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,457
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,457 |
Also, when installing the cam cover, the holes have to be extra clean, because those bolt holes go all the way through to the bearing surface. Any bits of crud on the end of the bolt, or caught on the way down, would go right in there.
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Re: Head-ed to the recycling bin.
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,668
Learned Hand
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OP
Learned Hand
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I just wanted to update this thread. Well, the machine shop/ engine builder said the problem with repairing my old head was that he couldn't align-bore it, as he's really only equipped to work on V-8s. So i went ahead and bought a 9500 mile used head and cams to replace mine.(Got a sweet deal too!) I checked it and it has nearly .003 thousandths worth of flop at the ends of the cams. Far better than what i had, but a clear indicator that these heads are prone to wear out quickly. I re-ringed the 904, got it running and have put 900 miles on in 2 weeks. She runs great, has acceptable noise levels, and no oil leaks. I'm happy with it for now, but sure miss the lope and extra torque of my stage 1 cams and ported/polished head! I suspect there are a lot more very-worn heads running around on higher mileage bikes. If you plan to keep your bike for a long time, i'd advise keeping your eyes peeled for a spare head... 
Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come; He will guide you in all truth:
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Re: Head-ed to the recycling bin.
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,248 Likes: 64
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,248 Likes: 64 |
This whole thing is what has bothered me since I found out they had no replaceable bearings. This is the next biggest thing that worries me next to the starter boss breaking. Glad you found a good deal to fix it but seems a temporary fix, too bad there isn't an affordable alternative. There isn't even a prohibitively expensive one now.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Head-ed to the recycling bin.
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,063 Likes: 8
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,063 Likes: 8 |
There are still a good number of bikes out there with high mileage. We know of several that have over 100k on them.
Rob, without trying to start another oil thread, what type of oil have you used. 10W40, 20W50, synthetic, semi or dino?
12 Rocket Roadster
03 Bonneville America
69 BSA Firebird Scrambler
73 Yamaha TX 750
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Re: Head-ed to the recycling bin.
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964
Stickman Yogi
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Stickman Yogi
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964 |
Quote:
Rob, without trying to start another oil thread, what type of oil have you used. 10W40, 20W50, synthetic, semi or dino?
I'd be interested in knowing too!
Live to love, love to live.
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Re: Head-ed to the recycling bin.
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,176 Likes: 15
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Quote:
I just wanted to update this thread.
Well, the machine shop/ engine builder said the problem with repairing my old head was that he couldn't align-bore it, as he's really only equipped to work on V-8s.
So i went ahead and bought a 9500 mile used head and cams to replace mine.(Got a sweet deal too!) I checked it and it has nearly .003 thousandths worth of flop at the ends of the cams. Far better than what i had, but a clear indicator that these heads are prone to wear out quickly.
I re-ringed the 904, got it running and have put 900 miles on in 2 weeks. She runs great, has acceptable noise levels, and no oil leaks. I'm happy with it for now, but sure miss the lope and extra torque of my stage 1 cams and ported/polished head!
I suspect there are a lot more very-worn heads running around on higher mileage bikes. If you plan to keep your bike for a long time, i'd advise keeping your eyes peeled for a spare head...
If I was to make this repair myself (in the home shop), I would fixture the head to a lathe cross slide and line bore with the boring bar in the spindle. I do not see an issue with cleaning up the bores. the cam journals would still have to be built up and ground to match.
05 speedmaster - 1100cc, 11:1 racing pistons, Carillo rods, thunderbike cams, ported and polished head, 2mm over intake and exhaust valves, Barnett kevlar clutch, scepter pipes, oversize manifolds, 45mm HSR's, TTP stage 4 firestarter
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Re: Head-ed to the recycling bin.
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,668
Learned Hand
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OP
Learned Hand
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Quote:
Quote:
Rob, without trying to start another oil thread, what type of oil have you used. 10W40, 20W50, synthetic, semi or dino?
I'd be interested in knowing too!
Dino for ring break-in, then full synthetic, either Mobil 1 or Valvoline... Have i mentioned that i show my bike little-to-no mercy. 
Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come; He will guide you in all truth:
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Re: Head-ed to the recycling bin.
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 988
3/4 Throttle
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3/4 Throttle
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Dino for ring break-in, then full synthetic, either Mobil 1 or Valvoline... Have i mentioned that i show my bike little-to-no mercy.
I wander if that is the road that I am heading down?  I too show my bike little mercy... Ever.. 
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