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"Need to know"
#524414 07/19/2013 11:18 PM
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erle Offline OP
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Can anyone share any thoughts of what would be wrong with this idea for a major short-cut for checking valve clearances?

I've got 23,000 miles on the "Ghetto-Blaster", and believe it's time to do the first valve clearance check. (ya, I know )

The Factory Manual (3.11) list steps 2 & 3 as follows;

2.) Remove the alternator cover from the right-hand side of the crankcase (see alternator removal in electrical & ignition system section).

3.) Using a socket on the alternator rotor bolt, rotate the crankshaft clockwise until a pair of camshaft lobes are pointing directly away from their valves.


My question is this: Why do I need to do this? Can't I just LOOK at the cam position and "Bump" the starter button, or spin the rear tire with the transmission in gear, until this position is seen/achieved, thereby eliminating the removal and replacement of the alternator cover?

I will be doing this the "Erle" way Saturday, unless I hear any reasons NOT TO.


And you may see me tonight With an illegal smile J. Prine
Re: "Need to know"
erle #524415 07/19/2013 11:37 PM
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you can't bump the starter because everyone knows that step 1 in any procedure is to disconnect the battery


Always remember to be yourself. Unless you suck. Then pretend to be someone else.
Re: "Need to know"
roadworthy #524416 07/20/2013 12:01 AM
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Point taken!


But, embarrassing as it is to say, that's ANOTHER short-cut of Erles!


And you may see me tonight With an illegal smile J. Prine
Re: "Need to know"
erle #524417 07/20/2013 1:43 AM
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erle, I can't see a problem with doing it like that. except for the fact that you are driving the engine with the rear wheel. this may put tension on the parts "backwards". Instead of the crank driving all the parts/ internals then going through to the rear wheel . the loading of the drivetrain begins at the crank. you could try it and if it doesn't work out , remove the side cover and turn the engine. Des.

Re: "Need to know"
mcfcinusa #524418 07/20/2013 2:14 AM
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IIRC, There is a benchmark on the flywheel that needs to align with a split in the case,that puts the engine in the proper phase of the firing order when re-installing the cams, after the shim change out. Being able to rotate the engine via a ratchet on the flywheel nut also gives you a finer amount of rotational control. I would imagine the job would/could be kind of frustrating without it. Turning an engine backwards is considered by many as improper procedure and supposedly can damage the babbit bearings, true or not, I have no idea, I just try not to, just in case.

Re: "Need to know"
erle #524419 07/20/2013 6:37 AM
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You can spin the rear tire,Better if you have a helper to spin the tire or sight the marks.
Step2A: loosen/remove spark plugs


'04' Black America
Re: "Need to know"
erle #524420 07/20/2013 6:52 AM
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Earl,
Loosen the spark plugs then with your bike in 2 or third gear, and the rear tire off the ground, spin the rear wheel until you get the cams aligned for shim clearance check. once you have all the clearances measured, then bump the engine until the cams are aligned for removal (if needed). Make sure you are comparing yours to the Bonneville America picture and not the Bonneville picture.

DO NOT USE THE STARTER.

imho the only time you need to remove the alternator cover is if you do a big bore or otherwise have to remove the jugs...Well maybe if your hall effect sensor goes bad or the stator goes south...


Blowing gravel off rural roads
Re: "Need to know"
moe #524421 07/20/2013 7:35 AM
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Quote:

Earl,
Loosen the spark plugs then with your bike in 2 or third gear, and the rear tire off the ground, spin the rear wheel until you get the cams aligned for shim clearance check. once you have all the clearances measured, then bump the engine until the cams are aligned for removal (if needed). Make sure you are comparing yours to the Bonneville America picture and not the Bonneville picture.

DO NOT USE THE STARTER.

imho the only time you need to remove the alternator cover is if you do a big bore or otherwise have to remove the jugs...Well maybe if your hall effect sensor goes bad or the stator goes south...




+1


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Re: "Need to know"
moe #524422 07/20/2013 10:51 AM
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Thanks guys. I'm ONLY inquiring about lash CHECK.

IF it needs shims, I'll probably remove the alternator cover. Or NOW, maybe not.



And you may see me tonight With an illegal smile J. Prine
Re: "Need to know"
erle #524423 07/20/2013 12:09 PM
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Quote:



IF it needs shims, I'll probably remove the alternator cover. Or NOW, maybe not.






No need. Moe's advice is spot on.


Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, tambiƩn
Re: "Need to know"
erle #524424 07/20/2013 1:12 PM
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That will work fine for checking the valve clearance. But, if you need to make adjustments, you will have to remove the cam and that means removing the dynamo cover to gat the timing exactly right.
By the way, don't bother to get the exact clearance unless you are tracking wear. Just use min and max feeler gauges for a "go/no go" test. If the min gauge fits and the max doesn't, all is good.


Let's hope there's intelligent life somewhere in space 'cause it's buggar all down here. -- Monte Python
Re: "Need to know"
Greybeard #524425 07/20/2013 6:10 PM
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So far I haven't removed the stator cover to do any of the valve adjustments.I turn the engine withe the spark plugs out by the rear wheel with the trans in 5th gear. I turn the engine until the timing marks line up and just don't move the engine until it is reassembled.


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Re: "Need to know"
The_Dog33 #524426 07/20/2013 8:37 PM
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Imagine my surprise when I found the clearances to be UNDER the recommended gap!

How is this possible, when I was concerned about the valve train being "noisy"!

Book says exhaust clearance should be between .25-.30. mine was about .015.

THAT'S when I remembered what side of the "pond" I was on. The ,25-.30 was in MM!
My .015 was in inches.

So, I'm lookin' at .355 & .400mm on exhaust, and .30-.33mm on intake. (which SHOULD be between .15-.20.)

I'm down to removing the cam caps, when the FACTORY MANUAL wasn't clear on the locking pins to keep the cam gear & the Backlash gear aligned. Thank goodness for the Haynes Manual today, as THEY show clear PHOTO'S of the locking pins in place. Answered that question.

So tomorrow I will get the existing shims out to see what size they are, and can then decide what size new ones to get.

Won't be able to try to get them until Monday. I remember a post that said Honda shims worked. Anyone know where that thread is? I DO have a Triumph dealer in town, but IF they want to rape me for price, or if their not in stock, then I'll go to Honda.

Thanks for all the input.

AS ALWAYS, it IS APPRECIATED!



And you may see me tonight With an illegal smile J. Prine
Re: "Need to know"
erle #524427 07/20/2013 9:42 PM
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Moe listed a whole bunch of shims in the tech vault. Yam V-max was the 1st. There were many others. Lets see if I can send a link.....http://www.bonnevilleamerica.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=90403&page=0&fpart=2&vc=1

Try that.

Last edited by Gmike; 07/20/2013 9:50 PM.
Re: "Need to know"
Gmike #524428 07/20/2013 9:44 PM
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Nope...I cant send a link.

Re: "Need to know"
erle #524429 07/20/2013 10:58 PM
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Here's some good information:

clicky


Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, tambiƩn
Re: "Need to know"
bigbill #524430 07/21/2013 9:02 AM
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Quote:

Here's some good information:

clicky






"good information"!??

That's an understatement!

I've NEVER figured out how to use the Tech Vault correctly. I guess it's either make a trip to Jim's house for a lesson (would PROBABLY need to bring junior with me, to "understand" the techno-lingo), or (as I'm doing now) write off a tree or two to ol' Erle, as I'm now printing out these threads as they re-appear in my time on this site, and starting my own "Paper Library"!


To ALL,


And you may see me tonight With an illegal smile J. Prine
Re: "Need to know"
Ryk #524431 07/21/2013 9:08 AM
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And THANKS Ryk!

I'll be using the 4mm flat head bolt & nut trick, as I really, really want to get the shims out TODAY, so I can get the parts over the next week (wishful thinking, I'm sure) and button her up next weekend.

With the GS in the shop, and the H2 waiting her turn, I have NOTHIN' TO RIDE!


And you may see me tonight With an illegal smile J. Prine
Re: "Need to know"
Gmike #524432 07/21/2013 11:05 AM
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Quote:

Moe listed a whole bunch of shims in the tech vault. Yam V-max was the 1st. There were many others. Lets see if I can send a link.....http://www.bonnevilleamerica.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=90403&page=0&fpart=2&vc=1

Try that.







Yep, it works if you copy/paste!
Thanks.


And you may see me tonight With an illegal smile J. Prine
Re: "Need to know"
erle #524433 07/21/2013 5:05 PM
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Ok, the shim adjustments are now on hold!

I HAVE NOT loosened the Camshaft Caps, because I CAN'T FIGURE OUT HOW TO INSTALL the "LOCKING PINS", to keep the tension on the Backlash Gear/Spring.

My problem is this. I have NO holes that even come CLOSE to "lining-up" to install the "Locking pins".

Please look closely at the following pictures I took today. Everything is set correctly per both the factory manual and the Haynes manual. From the pictures of the RIGHT side, you will see the cam lobes are positioned per the book, rear intake at about 2:30, and the front exhaust at approx. 12:30, and "TOP" at the top on the Camshaft Drive Gear. The "L" line is also lined up with the crankcase joint. Pictures from the LEFT side show the exhaust AND intake timing marks are correct.

Now look closely INTO the holes in the Camshaft Gears (both intake & exhaust, pictured from the left side) and you'll see the Backlash Gear PEG, NOT the hole in the backlash gear!!!

WTF!!!

If you look at the Cam Gear holes again (from the LEFT side) you'll agree they're @ about straight up 12:00 (or at the least, 11:30). now look at the BACKLASH GEAR hole locations in the picture from the RIGHT side. They are @ about 11:00 for the SMALL hole, and 1:30-2:00 for the BIG hole. Now IF you can imagine being able to see "THROUGH" the Cam Gears from the LEFT SIDE VIEW, that would translate to about 10:30-11:00 for the LARGER holes, and 1:00 for the SMALLER holes in the Backlash Gears.

The entire cam/valve assembly was disassembled under warranty service by the dealership that I bought it from when they discovered that a oil leak from the top of the Breather Tube was due to an imperfection (divot) in the machined surface where the upper O-ring was supposed to seal to, and the only remedy was to replace the head.

COULD THE MECHANIC HAVE BOTCHED THIS DURING RE-ASSEMBLY!??? I believe someone posted once about some mechanics not catching this. COULD it have run so well (NORMAL) for SO LONG (about FIVE YEARS) under this condition, IF IN FACT THAT IS WHAT'S GOING ON HERE!!???











And you may see me tonight With an illegal smile J. Prine
Re: "Need to know"
erle #524434 07/27/2013 9:09 AM
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Ok, everything came apart per plan.

I'm told the "Backlash" feature doesn't do squat, other than quiet it down (IF you could tell?). OBVIOUSLY, IT DOESN'T, as neither one of mine were in tension, hadn't been since 2007!

Some other FUN FACTS for this procedure:

1.) Bike Bandit SHOWS four (4) crush washers for the Oil Pipe. Two on top, two on bottom. Makes sense, as all other connections I see using Banjo Bolts have one on each side. But the two manuals don't, and there were only two on mine. Would the additional thickness (0.8 mm.) on the additional washers, placed between the Oil Pipe and the Cam Caps, affect the location of the O-ring placement in it's bore?

2.) Bike Bandit spec's the O-ring for the Oil Pipe as "9 mm I.D., 12 mm O.D., BUT ONLY FOR ENGINE NUMBERS 221608 and below, and 229407-230164.??? MINE is in between those! WTF! A member here said 9 mm I.D., and 10 mm O.D.? Still discussing that.

3.) From the Haynes Manual:
"Camshaft, shims and followers; Caution: A camshaft could break if the holder bolts are not slackened as described and the pressure from a depressed valve causes the shaft to bend. Also, if the holder does not come squarely away from the head, the holder is likely to break. If this happens the cylinder head must be replaced with a new one; the holders are matched to the head and cannot be obtained separately."

Now THIS is sure to tighten the ol' sphincter muscle of even the most accomplished mechanic, when it's all on YOUR dime!

And 4.) You will get different readings for the clearance gap check on Sunday then you will on Saturday night!

Mine came out text book perfect. Holders came up squarely (though, due to fear, I loosened mine an 1/8th of a turn at a time) with no binding, and the cams just lifted right out without issue (again, NO tension on the Backlash Spring).

Today it's off to the stealer to see IF I can get all the shims I need, along with the O-ring and washers. Bike Bandit sells shims for $7.33. Jim say's expect $13.95 from the stealer! I get O-rings for 50 cents from Pepboys, but they only have 8 mm I.D. Looks like ol' Erles gonna be out $100.00 PLUS for parts, and will probably have to order at least ONE of the needed items, postponing the repair for a week, or two!

SHIZIT!


And you may see me tonight With an illegal smile J. Prine
Re: "Need to know"
erle #524435 07/27/2013 11:18 AM
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Make sure to lube the bolt threads when re-installing everything and also the cam lobes.


'04' Black America
Re: "Need to know"
Two_Wheel_n #524436 07/27/2013 1:20 PM
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+10!

Just got ALL the shims (six total needed) from Magic City Cycle ($7.00 ea.).

They had to order the O-ring ($4.23 for THAT 50 cent piece), and the crush washers ( 93 cents ea.). They SHOULD be in by NEXT weekend. But THAT'S OK, With the shims, I can get the Cams re-installed, spin the motor through several revolutions, and check the final clearances. IF my math was correct, and the little Gremlins didn't f%$* with anything, I'll have a beer (or eight) and relax, knowing NEXT weekend will be re-installing the Oil Pipe, and GO!!!

Plenty of Assembly Lube on hand, and a container of Break-in Additive for the oil.



And you may see me tonight With an illegal smile J. Prine
Re: "Need to know"
erle #524437 08/04/2013 8:16 AM
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WEEEELL, The cams are back in, torqued, crank spun several revolutions, gap re-checked, and ALL IS GOOD! (NOW! )

A brake job (front only) on the Tahoe trumped the Triumph repairs, so it didn't get done till late evening.

Last night I did this twice! After getting the two back ordered shims yesterday morning.

TWICE, you say!??

YES, TWICE!

After the first re-check, two on number three (the intake AND the exhaust) were out. BARELY out.(0.025) But, not satisfied, I pulled the cams again, was going to pull the new shims, re-order, get NEXT Saturday, and...


BUT, MUCH TO MY SURPRISE (WHY surprised, I DON'T know ), I had put the Intake shim in the exhaust bucket, and the exhaust one in the intake bucket!

Yep, they were sized correctly, just improperly placed by my ACE mechanic!

You'd think I be smarter with age.

ANYWAY, after breakfast (hope I put THAT in the proper opening ), I'll install the Oil Pipe, replace the covers, and go for a ride, IF I get the prerequisite YARD WORK done.

Didn't finish last night cause the mosquitoes woudn't stay out of the Ghetto Shed (Even with LOUD music playing).



And you may see me tonight With an illegal smile J. Prine
Re: "Need to know"
erle #524438 08/04/2013 8:59 AM
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Quote:


Didn't finish last night cause the mosquitoes woudn't stay out of the Ghetto Shed (Even with LOUD music playing).






I figured with all the smoke rolling out of there the skeeters wouldn't stand a chance.

Re: "Need to know"
Leithal #524439 08/04/2013 9:09 AM
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Seems to have made them more hungry!??

Maybe NEXT time I'll put a Twinky outside the shed!



And you may see me tonight With an illegal smile J. Prine

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