 Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,690
Learned Hand
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OP
Learned Hand
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,690 |
Anyone have any experience with Chapter 7 bankruptcy? I've seen one successful recovery, he bought a harley within one month of filing! How long would it take to purchase a house after filing?, I know he's in a new house now, and it has'nt been but 3 years...Maybe an option for someone I know...
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,068 Likes: 1
Saddle Sore
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Saddle Sore
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,068 Likes: 1 |
I know a guy that's filed a 7 twice in just a few years and he STILL was able to buy a 300K house , new truck , etc.,etc . Don't get it . I could have filed when my last business failed , but I chose to pay everyone off . And a 7 will stay on your credit for 7 years .
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Quote:
I know a guy that's filed a 7 twice in just a few years and he STILL was able to buy a 300K house , new truck , etc.,etc . Don't get it . I could have filed when my last business failed , but I chose to pay everyone off . And a 7 will stay on your credit for 7 years .
You paid everybody back, did ya Wade?! 
Well, I don't know, but I gotta say that that sounds mighty "un-american" o' you, ol' buddy!!! 
I mean who does THAT anymore, HUH?!  
(...good for you!!!) 
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,068 Likes: 1
Saddle Sore
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Saddle Sore
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,068 Likes: 1 |
Yeah Dwight , life would be a lot better if we assumed responsibility for our own actions . 
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Saaaay, now THERE'S a novel idea, eh Wade???!!!
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,068 Likes: 1
Saddle Sore
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Saddle Sore
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,068 Likes: 1 |
Hey ! A NOVEL ! Hmmm , "Assuming Responsibility" by emerging author W.S.Walker , number 987 on the New York Times worst seller list .  I gotta go change the oil in my Underwood . Bye !
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Not to sidetrack this thread here(though, this IS Dwight talkin'...err...TYPIN' here remember ) I just CAN'T figure out this latest thing goin' on today where people are walkin' away from their homes because its worth far less than what they paid for it a few years back, and ESPECIALLY if these people STILL have jobs and can STILL afford to pay their mortgage?!!!!!! I mean, 21 years years ago and right before the previous real estate bubble burst, the wife and I purchased a house in SoCal for $233K, and five years later in 1995 it was worth about $150K. But did WE walk?! NOOOOOOOOOO, we sure didn't. We stuck it out and just before this last bubble burst the thing was "worth" $600K. (wish we could have sold it 3 years ago when it was "worth" that, but Judie was still workin' at LAX, so we couldn't) And soooooooo, what's up with these people walkin' away from their homes nowadays when they can still afford to pay their mortgages, HUH???!!! (...I just don't "get it"!!!)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964
Stickman Yogi
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Stickman Yogi
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964 |
Quote:
(...I just don't "get it"!!!)
It's because they're putting stuff in our food and drinkin' water to make us stoopid! What OTHER explanation for what I just wrote? See, I just made my point!
Live to love, love to live.
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 11,126 Likes: 13
Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 11,126 Likes: 13 |
Dwight, it is easy to figure out why. These people lack a simple construct: Shame
Blowing gravel off rural roads
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 593
Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 593 |
One reason is that if they ow $300,000 on a house that is worth $180,000 they can walk away and then to and buy one for $250,000, owe less money and have a better house. Why should the banks be the only ones coming out ahead.
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,590
Check Pants
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Check Pants
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,590 |
A few years ago, a few months before the housing "slump" I was offered a job in another area (higher cost of living). Some encouraged me to go, "Buy a house then when your ready sell it for a tidy profit". Being a fiscal conservative, somewould say cheap, I ultimately stayed put. My mortgage here is roughly 21% of my net monthly income. Best I could tell an equivalent home there would have been about 35%. Could I have gotten a loan? Yes. Did I want to live that way? No. Stories of folks buying with zero down, or interest only loans, scared the heck out of me. Risk & reward I guess.  jh
"It's not what I say that's important, it's what you hear" Red Auerbach
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 11,126 Likes: 13
Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 11,126 Likes: 13 |
Quote:
One reason is that if they owe $300,000 on a house that is worth $180,000 they can walk away and then go and buy one for $250,000, owe less money and have a better house. Why should the banks be the only ones coming out ahead.
Really? It is exactly this that lends credence to my lack of shame being the reason, i.e, lack of honor. So much for a man's word eh?
Blowing gravel off rural roads
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62 |
That sort of happened here. Realtors here were over estimating values and ripping people from the city off. Foreclosure is very high here from people from the city buying houses for 2 to 3 times what they are worth after having them appraised at the inflated price. It was a scam and quite a few went to jail over it after the fact.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Yep, I agree with ya, moe. And to answer Jim's question: Quote:
Why should the banks be the only ones coming out ahead?
...maybe because people put their John Hancock(yeah, I know you're Canadian, but you probably still know the reference I'm usin' with Mr. Hancock's name here) down on a mortgage, i.e....a promise to pay back to that bank a certain amount of money for that house.
Of course, in today's day and age it seems "promises" are often thought of as too "Old Skool" to be taken seriously.
Yep, kinda like how today 50% of people who "promise" to "love, honor and respect their spouses 'til death us do part" can't seem to be bothered with THAT kinda thing anymore, either...especially after the two of 'em pop out 1, 2, or 5 little rugrats!
(...but hey, please don't get me started on THAT here, 'cause I can "wax poetic", or maybe more exactly put, I can "wax nostalgic" about THAT "little" present social issue for quite some time TOO, ya know!!!!) 
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
Quote:
That sort of happened here. Realtors here were over estimating values and ripping people from the city off. Foreclosure is very high here from people from the city buying houses for 2 to 3 times what they are worth after having them appraised at the inflated price. It was a scam and quite a few went to jail over it after the fact.
Happened everywhere Ian. That's what the housing bubble pop was: Artificially inflated prices coming back to reality.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 593
Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 593 |
Don't get me wrong guys, I am not advocating walking out on a mortgage, I was just explaining why.
As for honor and a man's, I agree with you Moe, but those that Be have stacked the deck against us. Those with money have no problem using the system to protect themselves and almost rely on the fact that we don't.
Personally, it is not a consideration for me, for as Dwight pointed out, I'm Canadian, we don't have the option of walking out on a mortgage without filing for bankruptcy. And, the consequences of bankruptcy are not as easy to avoid in Canada (although not impossible).
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1
Second Wind
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Second Wind
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1 |
This is not always cut and dry. My neighbor had to walk away from his house because: #1 They over valued the house to start with by about 30,000 bones ( The house was never worth that they scamed him). #2 when the interest rates had gone down to below 4 % they jacked his up to 25% (he could not afford the new inflated payment). Its hard for me to place any blame on him. This is outrageous, and should have been illegal.
Don't get me wrong I believe a person should pay his debts. I also believe some buisness ethics should be practiced.
Last edited by locopony; 02/16/2011 3:28 PM.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Uh huh Chad, BUT where exactly in your story is the idea that BEFORE people get involved in ANY kind of transaction, that it "might be" incumbent upon THEM to seek out ALL the pertinent formation available to said transaction, and BEFORE they promise to abide by any agreement? (...ya see, the whole problem nowadays seem to be that few people even remember W.C.Fields and/or his wise ol' axiom that: "You can't cheat an honest man!")
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 593
Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 593 |
Quote:
Uh huh Chad, BUT where exactly does the idea that BEFORE people get involved in ANY kind of transaction, that it "might be" incumbent upon THEM to seek out ALL the pertinent formation available to said transaction, and BEFORE they promise to abide by any agreement?
(...ya see, the whole problem nowadays seem to be that few people even remember W.C.Fields and/or his wise ol' axiom that: "You can't cheat an honest man!")
Yea, but if they got all the pertinent "formation" than that would include the fact that it is perfectly legal to walk away from the deal at any time. 
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825
"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825 |
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Hey guys! Don't blame ME for that misspelling of "information" there!!! I sent the above off to Texas to be proofread before I entered it, ya see!!! (...THAT'LL teach ME, huh?!) 
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,694 Likes: 22
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,694 Likes: 22 |
Dwight's formation is spot on yall. I spell checked it. If you bought a house you could afford and the house went down in value what does that have to do with affording it? Life isn't always wonderful. But, you still have a house. Before walking on a house you should: Sell, short sell or give back your financed cars. Drive clunkers. Promise to never, ever borrow money again as clearly you can't plan on the future or future earnings. If you file Chapter 7 and still own a motorcycle, shame on you. You are not broke yet. That is jus my opinion for mation purposes only. 
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,457
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,457 |
You can be pretty smug when you're sitting pretty.
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825
"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825 |
I think most people have been broke before. It's a test of character. One of many things I've learned listening to Dave Ramsey (who would probably agree with Ron).
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,730 Likes: 5
Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,730 Likes: 5 |
Quote:
If you bought a house you could afford and the house went down in value what does that have to do with affording it? Life isn't always wonderful. But, you still have a house.
That's the bottom line right there. You find a house, like the price and payments, and buy it. Then someone says it's not worth as much? Deal with it. Same as a car, you buy some $30,000 car, drive it away from the dealer, it's now worth $22,000 and declining daily. But do you just let it get repo'd? But since it's a house, somehow people think differently? I don't get it. Plus, this whole deal with an ARM loan, how can anyone possibly think a bank will EVER adjust an interest rate IN YOUR FAVOR? Lock in a rate you can deal with. It's like a casino, you can't beat the house!
Always remember to be yourself. Unless you suck. Then pretend to be someone else.
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825
"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825 |
I'm so glad I kept it modest. In '99 I paid $75k for my 1k sq ft. house. Built a garage in '04 bringing the total up to $100k with a construction loan. Refinanced last year at 4% and my mortgage payment is stupid-cheap.
Of course, if I had lost my job at any point during the last 10 years, I might've found myself in a similar situation even with a small cheap house.
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,730 Likes: 5
Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,730 Likes: 5 |
I agree, having steady income is a major factor in keeping a home. I'm talking more about the ones that can afford it and choose not to, because they don't agree with the new value.
Always remember to be yourself. Unless you suck. Then pretend to be someone else.
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825
"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825 |
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,694 Likes: 22
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,694 Likes: 22 |
Quote:
You can be pretty smug when you're sitting pretty.
Everybody pays for Chapter 7. Not smug at all. When you walk on your debt we all pay for it in the form of interest or tightened credit lines. Repo sales on houses tank other prices in the neighborhood.
I would call it more along the lines of intolerant, not smug. Smug would be if I took some joy in what I typed. I did not. Its sad to see folks go broke. It is not my fault and he is not broke yet.
I truly do mean if you still have a bike and a vehicle to drive you are not broke yet. Sell the bike buy a clunker, sell the bike pay off the note, give the bike back to the bank stop making payments. Sell the bike buy food. Its really pretty basic.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,494 Likes: 6
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,494 Likes: 6 |
Mean while, people pull up to the welfare line in their new cars... Some business would sell their own mothers to make or save a buck! Too much "grab the money and run" going on and people get immune to it. People see that everybody else is doing it, and it's legal, tall to your congressperson! 
'04' Black America
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,694 Likes: 22
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,694 Likes: 22 |
I hope people just stop doing it just because they can. You can beat your head on the wall. Eat a can of Crisco 3 meals a day, followed by 8 donuts then smoke a few packs of cigarettes every day too. Its all legal and we all know it hurts, gets you fat, or causes health issues. We are all very free to do it.
We also know borrowing too much money or abusing credit cards gets us financially sick. There should not be a law against it. But, there should be no benefit on walking away from your obligations.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,494 Likes: 6
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,494 Likes: 6 |
So true! Just like people buying things over seas,once in awhile is OK (and I probably buy "made in China" more times than I think)Just because something is "made" here, doesn't mean that the company is based here. Now companies are based overseas for tax breaks etc...where do their profits trickle down to?
PS: I rather buy tea and crumpets than rice cakes
'04' Black America
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 575
Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 575 |
For his birthday, little Joseph asked for a 10-speed bicycle..
His father said, 'Son, we'd give you one, but the mortgage on this house is $280,000 and your mother just lost her job.
There's no way we can afford it.'
The next day the father saw little Joseph heading out the front door with a suitcase.
So he asked, 'Son, where are you going?'
Little Joseph told him; 'I was walking past your room last night and heard you telling mom you were pulling out.
Then I heard her tell you to wait because she was coming too.
And I'll be damned if I'm staying here by myself with a $280,000 mortgage and no Flaming bike!
_________________
What goes round comes round
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 8,639 Likes: 3
Old Hand
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Old Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 8,639 Likes: 3 |
After filing and all is settled, it seems that you are a better risk than before. You owe less, meaning you are better able to keep up your payments. Also, there is a timeout before you can file again which means you are a better risk.
Let's hope there's intelligent life somewhere in space 'cause it's buggar all down here. -- Monte Python
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,681 Likes: 1
Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,681 Likes: 1 |
I don't think anyone knows what bankruptcy is like unless they go through it. Anyone can get in trouble after a divorce ,illness or loosing their job. It's a very humbling experience. The guy that bought the new home after 3 years probably had a sub-prime ARM loan of around 8% or 9%. But the problem I have with banktuptcy is when people start making the same mistakes w/o learning anything from what got them in trouble in the first place. Like signing up for credit cards a year after bankruptcy is over. I told my 19 year old son that credit cards are evil and few people can handle them so stay away. So he just got his mom to co-sign with him for a new Silverado 
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,152
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,152 |
Quote:
Quote:
If you bought a house you could afford and the house went down in value what does that have to do with affording it? Life isn't always wonderful. But, you still have a house.
That's the bottom line right there. You find a house, like the price and payments, and buy it. Then someone says it's not worth as much? Deal with it. Same as a car, you buy some $30,000 car, drive it away from the dealer, it's now worth $22,000 and declining daily. But do you just let it get repo'd? But since it's a house, somehow people think differently? I don't get it. Plus, this whole deal with an ARM loan, how can anyone possibly think a bank will EVER adjust an interest rate IN YOUR FAVOR? Lock in a rate you can deal with. It's like a casino, you can't beat the house!
ok, canadian here, so take this with a grain of salt. I thought one of the things that happened is that people who owed more than the house was worth were unable to renew mortgages and therefore lost their house (or had to sell or whatever) i.e. it was the lender that pushed the button, not the borrower.
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 641
Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 641 |
That is correct..the lendor calls the shots..short sale included.My home is worth $180,000 now and 6 years ago was worth $295,000..Like Dwight I too should have sold but needed a place to live and had no forsight that this market would be like this today.Some neighbors in the development have walked away and this has driven prices down,,I am not behind on any debts,have a conventional loan(no fha/va)and am not eligible for any mortgage relief programs.Bank of America told me when I was 90 days delinquent,then call and fill out the paper for a new mortgage..Not going to happen as no gaurantee from Bof A that they would re-finance..So,like Dwight,I will wait it out till the market recovers as I would like to downsize to a condo..I am 68 and need more time to enjoy life and not the yard!!
life is good..I am retired..sold my America in 2008,bought a Rocket and sold that in 3/2013 and now own a new Triumph Bonneville T-100
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,590
Check Pants
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Check Pants
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,590 |
That's right Bob, I'd imagine a whole bunch of ba.com homeowner's castles aren't worth on paper what they were a few short years ago, due to circumstances . But I hope the bind isn't too tight, folks can sleep alright & the market recovers jh
"It's not what I say that's important, it's what you hear" Red Auerbach
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
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New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If you bought a house you could afford and the house went down in value what does that have to do with affording it? Life isn't always wonderful. But, you still have a house.
That's the bottom line right there. You find a house, like the price and payments, and buy it. Then someone says it's not worth as much? Deal with it. Same as a car, you buy some $30,000 car, drive it away from the dealer, it's now worth $22,000 and declining daily. But do you just let it get repo'd? But since it's a house, somehow people think differently? I don't get it. Plus, this whole deal with an ARM loan, how can anyone possibly think a bank will EVER adjust an interest rate IN YOUR FAVOR? Lock in a rate you can deal with. It's like a casino, you can't beat the house!
ok, canadian here, so take this with a grain of salt. I thought one of the things that happened is that people who owed more than the house was worth were unable to renew mortgages and therefore lost their house (or had to sell or whatever) i.e. it was the lender that pushed the button, not the borrower.
As I understand it you in Canada invest a sizable down payment when buying a house, like we did in the past. I am guessing you haven't had a housing bubble and don't have 9+% unemployment.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Chapter 7 recovery
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,694 Likes: 22
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,694 Likes: 22 |
2.4 million homeowners in the U.S. have less than 5% of their own money in the house. And we wonder why 1 million houses last year went to short sale or foreclosure. 60,000 in Phoenix area alone!
Unemployment is about 6-7% usually with about 50% of that not intending to work and not looking. When unemployment goes up to 8-10% that really for me does not correlate with repossession. Over 1/3 of all houses are owned without a mortgage.
I am willing to say that once the house became only a house, the owners walked on it just because the downside was not severe enough to stay. Too bad they didn't buy a home.
Is there a difference between walking on a debt you can afford and walking away from me if I lend you 20 bucks? I think not. Both were promises right?
20 years from now when they look at the house they walked on, many will kick themselves really hard for that boneheaded move.
There are tragic exceptions but the home is special. My daughter comes to the house and you can see her blood pressure drop and her smile get a little bigger. It becomes more than just a building for many. Its like your fort, when you were a kid. It represents an anchor, a place where you belong. A place where you are you and everybody there loves you for exactly who you are. It is where you store your memories.
My house is way to big for us now. The kids are not here. My house is not for sale. Every room has so many memories. So much love. My house is not just a building.
Anyhow, I digress. Sell everything else first and keep the house as long as you possibly can. You need a place to live anyhow, why not there?
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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