 She's not pulling hard anymore
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964
Stickman Yogi
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OP
Stickman Yogi
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964 |
Last fall, towards the end of riding season I thought my bike stopped pulling hard, especially through the mid to high RPM range. I put her away for the winter and forgot all about it. Now again this spring I notice the same thing. Just no power where there once was. After reading a lot of threads I here I ended up taking out the hidden filter, checked the petcock filters. Nothing was clogged up. I've checked the squirrel condoms, intake rubbers... can't find any air leaks. I'm running TORs and 123 mains. No other performance mods other than the K&N I put in a couple of weeks ago.
What I'm wondering is, could it be that the valves need adjusting? She has just over 17,000km and is an '03. The last 15,000km I put on last year in one season.
She runs well otherwise... starts good, idles good, no missing. She just doesn't pull like she used to. Watcha think?
Live to love, love to live.
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Re: She's not pulling hard anymore
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,616
Check Pants
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Check Pants
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,616 |
Keith...start with what you know changed...reverse the filter mod and see what happens.
SOLD: 07 Black BA, 39mm FCRs, TPUSA stage 1 head, TPUSA 813 cams, TPUSA 10.8:1 pistons, TTP #3 igniter, Specialty Spares Long Cannons, Tsukayu Hard Bags. 82HP/55tq
NEW: 19 Goldwing Tour DCT
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Re: She's not pulling hard anymore
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 283
Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 283 |
I was getting the same symptoms and found the perfect cure ;-)
i guess the clue is in the sig...
Seriously though, hope you get it sorted.
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Re: She's not pulling hard anymore
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,971
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 3,971 |
Maybe compare what you have to Dinqua's Jet Calc application.
I would believe those jets are a might small for the K&Ns,
but I'm only guessing. A lean burn often = a lower HP.
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Re: She's not pulling hard anymore
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,063 Likes: 8
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,063 Likes: 8 |
Keith,
What is your current carb setup? 123 mains, what pilots, needles - stock, TBS or Thruxton? Snorkels out? How many turns out on your idle screws?
My gut feel is that you are running lean. I have virtually the same bike and I'm running long straight through TORS with no snorkels, the intake where the snorkel seats has been beveled and opened up to max size. I needed to increase my mains to 135 but also installed TBS needles and have 42 pilots. I plan to install 45 pilots and try reducing the mains to 130s but hesitate to do so because the bikes pulls so well. My bike was sluggish when I replaced the filter especially after pulling the snorkels. You'll sort it out. BTW, my bike pulled hard even with the valves out of adjustment, mind you they were all loose.
Here is a seat of the pants test to check for proper main jet size. On a long straight (free from the local police), wind the bike out in 4th or 5th. Get it above 5000rpms accelerating hard and then slightly back off the throttle. If the bike seems to pick up speed, your mains are too small. The opposite, too big. Nothing and you are just right.
12 Rocket Roadster
03 Bonneville America
69 BSA Firebird Scrambler
73 Yamaha TX 750
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Re: She's not pulling hard anymore
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,537
Check Pants
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Check Pants
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,537 |
I had no power once after pulling the carb top off for rejetting. I never figured out exactly what was wrong, but reinstalling the carb-top diaphram rubbers solved my issue.
Al
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Re: She's not pulling hard anymore
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,668
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,668 |
Quote:
My gut feel is that you are running lean.
+1
Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come; He will guide you in all truth:
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Re: She's not pulling hard anymore
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1
Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1 |
Quote:
She just doesn't pull like she used to. Watcha think?
You've worn her out.
Hey, put the old filter back in and see what happens.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: She's not pulling hard anymore
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,243 Likes: 64
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,243 Likes: 64 |
Oh man if he wore it out I guess I'll take it for $100, I know , it's a generous offer for a worn out bike.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: She's not pulling hard anymore
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1
Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1 |
Quote:
Oh man if he wore it out I guess I'll take it for $100, I know , it's a generous offer for a worn out bike.
Well that beats my $50 and a promo CD by a long shot...
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: She's not pulling hard anymore
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964
Stickman Yogi
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OP
Stickman Yogi
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964 |
Okay... more than one of you suggested switching back to stock filter. I'll definitely do that and I'll also put the snorkel back in as it was before. Quote:
Here is a seat of the pants test to check for proper main jet size. On a long straight (free from the local police), wind the bike out in 4th or 5th. Get it above 5000rpms accelerating hard and then slightly back off the throttle. If the bike seems to pick up speed, your mains are too small. The opposite, too big. Nothing and you are just right.
And I'm gonna give that test a bash just as soon as weather permits. Greg, I'm running 123 mains, stock pilots (42?), and stock needles. Also, I pulled the snorkel at the same time as installing the K&N and while I was at it I installed the Polaris bellmouth. That was all about a month ago. What else did you ask... " Oh yeah, idle screw turns... haven't touched them. The carb tweaking thing is still new to me and admittedly I'm a little gun shy. I'll get over it and dive in... just haven't done it yet.
As for wearing her out? Well let's just say I'm working on it. Maybe by the end of this riding season... especially if I get that oomph back that she had.
Live to love, love to live.
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Re: She's not pulling hard anymore
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,499 Likes: 7
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,499 Likes: 7 |
Quote:
Last fall, towards the end of riding season I thought my bike stopped pulling hard, especially through the mid to high RPM range. I put her away for the winter and forgot all about it.
What happened last fall? Got a tank of bad gas with sh!t in it(blocking some passages)??
'04' Black America
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Re: She's not pulling hard anymore
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964
Stickman Yogi
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OP
Stickman Yogi
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964 |
Just checked Pat's calculator... calls for 126 mains. Would it really make that much of a difference to the power range of my bike given that I'm running 123s for now?
Live to love, love to live.
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Re: She's not pulling hard anymore
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,210
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,210 |
Keith same thing was happening to me...actually mine was a bit worse cause it was sputtering. I tried everything and then found out it was lean. I couldnt accept that answer though because it had run fine until around the end of summer or so. I think it had something to do with outside temperature. Do you think the temp at last years summer end was similar to the temps this spring?
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Re: She's not pulling hard anymore
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1
Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1 |
Quote:
Just checked Pat's calculator... calls for 126 mains. Would it really make that much of a difference to the power range of my bike given that I'm running 123s for now?
Yep, it can. Doesn't take much to change the whole A/F balance in our bikes.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: She's not pulling hard anymore
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,063 Likes: 8
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,063 Likes: 8 |
Keith,
Increase your main jet size to 130s. Shim your needles at least 1 shim and gain access to your idle screws.
You are LEAN and I'm shouting. You don't want to damage your engine.
Try that seat of the pants test I suggested. It works.
12 Rocket Roadster
03 Bonneville America
69 BSA Firebird Scrambler
73 Yamaha TX 750
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Re: She's not pulling hard anymore
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964
Stickman Yogi
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OP
Stickman Yogi
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964 |
Quote:
Keith same thing was happening to me...actually mine was a bit worse cause it was sputtering. I tried everything and then found out it was lean. I couldnt accept that answer though because it had run fine until around the end of summer or so. I think it had something to do with outside temperature. Do you think the temp at last years summer end was similar to the temps this spring?
Temperature! Yes... last fall would be about the same temp as this spring, anywhere from 0-10°c!! Do you really think? Because you see, I started out this spring with stock filter and snorkel in place, just like last fall. Is it that cold temps make our bikes run lean?
Last year was my first year with this bike so I have no other years to compare with. But I tell you, after the dyno tune I had last spring, that bike pulled HARD throughout the summer.
Temperature, eh? Huh........ 
Live to love, love to live.
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Re: She's not pulling hard anymore
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964
Stickman Yogi
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OP
Stickman Yogi
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964 |
Quote:
Keith,
Increase your main jet size to 130s. Shim your needles at least 1 shim and gain access to your idle screws.
You are LEAN and I'm shouting. You don't want to damage your engine.
Try that seat of the pants test I suggested. It works.
Really appreciate the advice here Greg. I will get on it as soon as possible which will be when I can obtain new jets. Okay, now here comes a couple of question based on ignorance...
Where does a guy get things like jets and shim? And,
Can I get away with enriching the mixture for now?
I will run that test, just as soon as weather permits. Thanks a bunch.
Live to love, love to live.
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Re: She's not pulling hard anymore
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,063 Likes: 8
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,063 Likes: 8 |
Putting the snorkel back in will help with the lean condition. Jets & shims are available from NewSpeedmaster. Shipped in an envelope so shipping is relatively cheap. Get a couple of different sized sets. Opening up the idle jets a bit will help the lower end acceleration up. Shimming the needles will help the mid range.
12 Rocket Roadster
03 Bonneville America
69 BSA Firebird Scrambler
73 Yamaha TX 750
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Re: She's not pulling hard anymore
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964
Stickman Yogi
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OP
Stickman Yogi
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964 |
Thanks Greg... I will put back the stock filter and snorkel until I get the carb stuff. Meanwhile, what of Tom's theory on Temperature? As said above, the bike had serious acceleration and power last summer... a fact that faded away near the end of the season. And I did nothing to it before the power dropped off. Hmmmmm....
Live to love, love to live.
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Re: She's not pulling hard anymore
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,499 Likes: 7
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,499 Likes: 7 |
Cold air is denser than warm air, and when the cold air warms up(like in your cylinders)its like adding a supercharger to your bike but your not increasing the fuel along with the air.
'04' Black America
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Re: She's not pulling hard anymore
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 11,126 Likes: 13
Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 11,126 Likes: 13 |
pulling the snorkel f'ups the midrange. big-time. a shim and larger mains is the first steps in correcting. leave your free-flowing filter in. But do replace the snork. Why not have another dyno run though? The learning curve on rejetting is steep. The biggest issue will be getting the soft brass philips head screws off the bowls. (if indeed they are still in place.) When you take the tops off, be anal about cleaning them before removal, then before reassembly. paying attention to the groove. great time to polish those caps too. Also, you might consider buying some brand new manifold/carb rubbers. (being as how you may have to pull the carbies in order to get the bowls off the first time). And when you order from that texas fellow, order some new manifold rubber clamps AND some allen head carbie bowl screws. Find nirvana at dinqua.com 
Blowing gravel off rural roads
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Re: She's not pulling hard anymore
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964
Stickman Yogi
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OP
Stickman Yogi
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964 |
Thanks Jim for the useful info. Steep learning curve, eh? I knew the time would come to learn and do all this stuff, just didn't think it would be this soon.
I like what Steven had to say about cold. Could explain that it was not just some kind of coincidence that my bike stopped pulling hard just as the cold set in. I mean, we go from soaring daytime temps to super chilly days almost overnight.
Live to love, love to live.
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Re: She's not pulling hard anymore
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,210
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,210 |
I'm no scientist or carb pro, but that was my theory. You figure if your setup is right on the line in the peak of summer, a 20+/- degree difference in temperature could push you over the edge. Which sounds about right seeing the numbers the calculator is coming up with vs. your current setup.
Dont over look that allen screw tip from moe. Its virtually imposible to work on these carbs with those stock philips screws, they strip really easily.
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Re: She's not pulling hard anymore
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,499 Likes: 7
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,499 Likes: 7 |
That sounds like a good call about the air temp, especially when you ride your bike thru snow storms when its tuned for warmer weather!!
'04' Black America
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Re: She's not pulling hard anymore
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964
Stickman Yogi
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OP
Stickman Yogi
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964 |
In a word, WOW!!! All I did was put the snorkel back and she's almost back to her good ol' self again (I say almost 'cause I'm kinda believing there's something to this cold thing)! I would never have believed it possible that pulling the snork could effect the engine THAT MUCH!! But yeah, I rode a fair bit today. And she had that midrange pulling power back and I felt quite relieved I did. I'm gonna save those performance mods for next winter, when I can really take my time and learn. And for now I'm gonna pay attention to her performance as the weeks warm up. I still think she pulled harder in hot summer weather. Amazing... I mean I'm just amazed!  Thanks again for all the help and guidance. I'd be a basket case (make that 'more of a.... ) without your input!!
Live to love, love to live.
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Re: She's not pulling hard anymore
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Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,499 Likes: 7
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,499 Likes: 7 |
Well keith, with the miles you put on, you should re-jet ASAP. If you get the jets and head to the NW Rally I'm sure someone will give you a hands on lesson on re-jetting!!
'04' Black America
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Re: She's not pulling hard anymore
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,616
Check Pants
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Check Pants
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,616 |
Keith,
Why not order a couple of jets and see if you can find the right combo for those mods.
If your bike is breathing that much more why not take advantage of it!
The only loss would be that tuning session you did last year but at least you have a fine reference point right now that you can revert to if needed.
SOLD: 07 Black BA, 39mm FCRs, TPUSA stage 1 head, TPUSA 813 cams, TPUSA 10.8:1 pistons, TTP #3 igniter, Specialty Spares Long Cannons, Tsukayu Hard Bags. 82HP/55tq
NEW: 19 Goldwing Tour DCT
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Re: She's not pulling hard anymore
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 11,126 Likes: 13
Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 11,126 Likes: 13 |
Keith ride cross country to the Ga Rally! Pete loves to tinker... ...Pete re-jetting at Chy and Di's pole barn circa May 5, 2007. 
Blowing gravel off rural roads
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Re: She's not pulling hard anymore
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964
Stickman Yogi
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OP
Stickman Yogi
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964 |
I hear what you're saying Z, but I just don't have the energy to work on her (for now anyway). I've had that seat and tank off too many times now and all I wanna do is ride for a while. For me to take on a new mod would be a learning curve and more time than seasoned folks like yourself. Or maybe I should put some new jets in my pocket and take them with me to the Raid. There's a fine cigar in it for you Z!! As for the Ga Rally Jim... now yer talking! A nice long ride and some expertise on the other end. And a nice long (and faster) ride back. I'll be there (I wish)!! 
Live to love, love to live.
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