 Re: Bush was right
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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"Proud to be an Infidel" ... "100% pure American Jingoist"
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Re: Bush was right
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
Or if that fails your litmus test than take a hard look at how the Israelis deal with terror when their backs are pushed to the wall.
Oh yeah, that sure as hell is going miles to win the hearts and minds of the Arab world, as the Administration is keen to point out to us. To date, 11 Hezbollah killed, 375 or so Lebanese casualties (not counted by Israel as Hezbollah), and several Billion in damage to the infrastructure of Lebanon, a country with a freely elected Democratic government, the type we are supposed to be bolstering. OH, and the good part, before the war, Hezbollah had a thriving public works group which built up a TON of positive sentiment amongst the local populace in southern Lebanon, by founding hospitals, helping fix up homes, etc...., and they have pledged to return after the fighting and rebuild Lebanon. It will not matter one iota to the locals if the money to do this rebuilding comes from Tehran or a neighborhood in South Beirut, to them, they will see it as Hezbollah looking out for their interests in return for loyalty, versus the Israelis wiping out their homes and livelihood, regardless of the whether the mission is right or not. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to predict how many more suicide bombers we've just created, and for us to say no cease fire until Hezbollah is defeated seals our fate as a collaborator of Israel, not a neutral force of peace in the Mideast! The only way Hezbollah will be "defeated", is by the IDF chasing them into Syria, and even then, they will just bide their time and return. What if Israel decides that they can't trust an international force to defend their border, and decide to pursue Hezbollah into Syria? Do you suppose our "allies" in the region will continue sitting idly by, further infuriating their populations?
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Re: Bush was right
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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I am not the one calling people “Chicken Hawks†or disparaging elected officials who have not been in the military. That is a currently a specialty of the left. But only as long as Republicans are in power. When it’s one of “theirs†in office, a lack of military experience is never an issue. In fact, going to foreign countries and taking part in protests against the American military is just fine. But when a conservative who has not been in battle sends troops to war, suddenly they think having been shot should be a prerequisite for making that decision.
I am only asking for some intellectual honesty from the left. If they are going to criticize the political leadership for not being combat veterans, saying that their decisions are somehow illegitimate because they have not personally been in combat, then perhaps we need to examine that argument.
Personally I would have no problem with the argument Robert Heinlein made in his SciFi novel Starship Troopers; that only veterans should be allowed to vote or hold elective office. It’s funny that the lefties, who generally view the military with contempt, want to make a similar argument. But, if it’s going to be applied to the VP and the Sec Def, it should be applied to everyone.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Bush was right
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Joined: Jan 2005
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3/4 Throttle
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3/4 Throttle
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i feel better. bush does have a Savior Complex. savior complex cat
George in Easy Rider: "Oh, oh I've got a helmet! I got a beauty!"
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Re: Bush was right
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Joined: Mar 2006
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Now thats an idea whose time has come. I have ofen thought that would be a great idea.
Citizenship for those who have a vested interest and investment in the security of the state.
That would mandate in our current sit-rep an overwhelming
majority to act and safeguard the well being of our land.
The very idea causes lefties to foam at the mouth like rabid dogs.
Yet, who better to determine the fate of the country than those who have enlisted past or present in its defense?
"Freedom As They Say ....has a taste unheard of or unknown by those who have wont to serve its needs?"
Good Idea lets vote on it! (veterans only tongue in cheek)
If we took a poll today nationwide the approval ratings for Bush would be VERY VERY GOOD. We would effectively eliminate the majority of the whiny lefties from the pot.
Last edited by clanrickarde; 07/24/2006 5:43 PM.
"Proud to be an Infidel" ... "100% pure American Jingoist"
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Re: Bush was right
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Larry,
I know what you're saying here. I have never had a particular problem with President Bush's lack of experience ON the field of combat.
What I DO have, and always have had, is a problem with apparent lack of experience IN the History and English CLASSROOMS at his alma mater.
('mazin' what kind'a "skool" a "poor kid" from the sticks" can get into with that there "affirmative action" stuff, huh?)
Cheers,
Dwight
(let me guess...the NEXT thing we talk about is that idiot Kerry's grade point average, huh?!...."they" ALWAYS go there)
Last edited by Dwight; 07/24/2006 6:12 PM.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Bush was right
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
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Quote:
(let me guess...the NEXT thing we talk about is that idiot Kerry's grade point average, huh?!...."they" ALWAYS go there)
Oh that's OK, I'll let YOU do the honors 
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Bush was right
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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i don't think you want to compare Abe, WW, and FDR to Bush-- not a good strategy. the civil war, ww1 and ww2 are not the Iraq War-- it's now an occupation. we won the war in a few weeks. Mission Accomplished. the war on terror is like the war on drugs. it's a package of marketing. Make it abstract and they'll buy it. these people are better at dbl speak than Orwell predicted.
A Chicken Hawk is a Chicken Hawk regardless of the war. Lincoln was a good deal less popular than George Bush is now, that war was certainly a lot costlier and far less popular among the total American population. Lincoln suspended several parts of the constitution waged total war against fellow Americans. Now, almost 150 years later, he is considered a great president. If George W's gamble pays off half as well as Lincolns he will be too. Both Wilson and FDR campaigned as "Peace" candidates while actively doing everything they could to drag us into war. Both willfully lied to the American people in the most bald faced manner possible and got us into wars that were opposed by the majority of the American people. As for occupation, we are still in Germany and Japan more than 60 years after that war ended.
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Hey, I just don't trust the neo-cons judgment. If I think they're dangerous, then I would be a bad American if I were to withhold my judgment. Most people in the country don't believe these neo-cons are doing a good job, but the bushies continue to fill our ears with hopeless and pointless dribble, as though we just don't get it, that we're too stupid to understand the greatness we are about to embark on. their condesending tone is almost infantile... so much for civilian control.
While I'm sure you don't mean it this way, the term neo-con is losing favor as it is widely considered to be shorthand for "The Jews who really run Washington." As to the point I assume you are responding to. Demanding that all officials in the military chain of command be military people is a odd one for the left as they generally show nothing but contempt for the military. While they have no problem with a dishonorable draft dodger in the White House if he is a Democrat, they seem to think that only Medal of Honor nominees are acceptable in a Republican administration.
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we control nothing until novemeber, then their might be some changes-- but don't underestimate the neo-cons, they'll preach the "cut and run anti-flag fag lefties will bring this country down" mantra until they're red in the face.
The fact that if we pull out now as Murtha and the activist "peaceniks" demand the terrorists will likely gain command of a major country in the Middle East doesn't bother you? Do you really think that if Al Queda and Hezbollah types start running Iraq We'll all be safe here in the US? Do you think that if any other country anywhere else in the world would ever trust the assurances of an American president if we leave millions of Iraqis to the tender mercies of terrorists just so an American political party can win a domestic victory?
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So how much do we trust the Bushies when they come up with the wmd in Iran? Will the world go along with them? this country is becoming what it hates. all truths contain elements of their opposites.
And while those neo-cons continue to ignore their own generals, why would we not slur the dummies. it's kept pretty quiet, but some things still leak out. this group is so inept as to be a danger to us.
So who would you have run this country? Jack "Preemptive Surrender" Murtha? Hillary "Weathervane" Clinton? John "War Hero" Kerry? Al "Too many to count" Gore? Talk about a bunch of fools. Not one has ever put the good of the country above the polls.
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i fear these neo-cons much more than the terrorists right now. and that is the truth, and i'm not alone. it's always the person who's doing it for our own good that we should fear. this country has a long history of helping other people to death. the bush doctrine comes to mind.
That is the scary thing, I believe too many lefties actually do think that. The very idea of a loyal opposition is completely foreign to the left these days. Partisanship not only does not stop at the waters edge, it gets worse. When one of the major parties sees a sworn enemy that has sworn to destroy us, and has acted on that oath, as less of a threat than the leadership of the other major party when it acts to protect this country, there is something terribly wrong. Too many Democrats have whipped themselves into such a frenzy they have completely divorced themselves from reality. As a partisan Republican I see that as good for my party, but bad for the country.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Bush was right
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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folks this is world war 3 we are in, and we all need to keep that in mind. if the people of the world dont stand together on this then all is lost. they shuned Churchill and said he was wrong when he told parliment about hitler and he wasnt. we cant afford to be wrong this time, there is far more at stake!!!!! these people want us (everybody but them that think like they do) DEAD!!!! and they dont care what price they pay, they will kill themselves to make their point. we (the world) must stop this!!!! and diplomicy aint the way, not with these people, they speak with forked tongue!!!!!! we must squash this bug!!!!  i am a child of the 60's and i did not think Nam was a place we should be, but this is different, this is not Nam, this is madness!!! we have to WIN and we have to WIN BIG!!!!!!! we need to put these people in there place and keep them there and the only thing they understand is force and strength!!!! we have found WMD's in iraq but the bias news media wont report it, check the dailys on the AP site and you will be much better informed, then by any other source. read what the good papers in England have to say. FOLKS WE MUST WIN THIS....THIS IS WORLD WAR 3!!!!!!
ENJOY!!!!! NEWT!!!!!
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Re: Bush was right
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Newt ....a lot of us true blue died in the wool members of the vast right wing conspiracy very much agree with you.
9/11/01 was the first day of WW3. We see now an escalation as the religion of peace has attempted to take advantage of the tolrance level of our allies the Israelis. Every thing the ragheads do at this juncture is no accident. Its all very calculated to test the winds and to find chinks in the armor of free western nations.
As for lefties having an appreciation of this ongoing conflict. FUGEDABOUDIT. They just do not get it.
Fortunately we will be here to save them when they come for them.
History repeats itself again and again and those who do not learn from it will be its next victims.
The Jews learned that hard lesson after a virtual millenium of persecution, hatred, murder and genocide.
You sure dont notice those people backing down to Hezbollah do ya. No way.
The threat to Israel is grave and directly influences what happens to us. Should Israel ever fall to Islamic fascist genocide the islamic world would them view the rest of us
as dominoes to fall. Their most self evident weapon in bringing us down lies in the left wing and its mouthpiece the fifth column media.
History will prove us right.
"Proud to be an Infidel" ... "100% pure American Jingoist"
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Re: Bush was right
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we'll know when it's wwIII.
the more dramatic the war hawks make all this, the easier it is to swallow the big lie.
cat
George in Easy Rider: "Oh, oh I've got a helmet! I got a beauty!"
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Re: Bush was right
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Does any of you who thinks diplomacy is the pure answer realize that Moslems believe it is okay to lie to non believers in order to advance the cause of Islam? To ask for a cease fire is to ask for mercy, and to do that enboldens them and only ignites ( motivates and THAT actually will create more terrorists ) them to fight on. I think Bayern has it horribly wrong when he says WE CREATE MORE TERRORISTS, that is complete BS and the type of thinking that leads to defeatism. If, by protecting ourselves we create more enemies so be it, but we will ( I guarantee ) not create any friends by surrender. As Larry so well informed us, of the dhimmi and how they aim to put us under it, they well look at infidels as less than human. That is why they still engage in the slave trade, and really, pormoted it from the 600s to now ( although, it is not as widespread, it is accepted by them ). Slaves in Africa had a 90 % mortality rate. Why? Males were immediately neutered ( as were some of the Crusaders when caught and not forced to convert or be killed ), and the infection, the long journey through Africa and then Sahara Africa was brutal. Women had careers as concubines when they were enslaved. The worldview we now encounter and oppose hasnt evolved a bit. So, surrender and see how life changes ( but, perhaps it will be your descendents who find out, perhaps the results wont be automatic, but passivism/appeasement will bear horrid fruit ).
Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and will never be.----Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Bush was right
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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The problem I have with the lack of military service of some on the right wing is only that they decried Bill Clinton's lack of service. Like Dwight said, it's a goose, gander kind of thing
Also they need to disparage the service of those who are combat veterans who oppose their agenda in order to reduce the negative effect to their own campaigns.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Bush was right
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Great Post Henry Hawk if you mean we should actually try to win something.
Actually my thoughts are very simplistic. If a nation allows terrorists to train, move money or have safe haven when that organization hits a country (our country) the host nation should glow in the dark.
No nation building, no winning the hearts and minds of anybody. You can't win their hearts and minds! The nation building is a new way to rip money out of our wallets for the special elite buds that want some of it.
We don't have the stomach for war we like little skirmishes where we can manipulate money! yep money! Kiss our ****** and we will give you money, donate to me and I will give you a delivery system, give us money and bank with us and we will let your kid fly stuff into our world trade center, on and on and on.
My axis of evil is Republicans, Democrats, and those that can't see though them. We need a strong 3rd party to clean these nasty little weasels out. All of them spent their whole life living on our dole with not one ounce of caring about anybody but themselves. The two party makes it that way. If they ran mickey mouse against minnie with a good 3rd party candidate a mouse would win!
Anybody that does not know that Saudi Arabia is the cradle of hate in that region is probably beyond help or discussion. They make our cars go so the spin machine takes good care of them in the PR department.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Bush was right
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3/4 Throttle
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3/4 Throttle
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George in Easy Rider: "Oh, oh I've got a helmet! I got a beauty!"
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Re: Bush was right
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Joined: May 2006
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Adjunct
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Adjunct
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2000 YRS. OF FIGHTING AND THEY STILL HAVEN'T ACHEIVED ANYTHING. THEY ARE STILL TRIBESMEN! THE WORST THING WE COULD DO TO SADDAM WOULD BE GIVE THE ENTIRE SH-- HOLE BACK TO HIM. BARB WIRE THE MIDDLE EAST AND DON'T LET ANYONE OUT AND LET THEM FIGHT!
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Re: Bush was right
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Henery, I don't believe I once mentioned any type of surrender, or other such defeatist nonsense. I did not agree with the War in Iraq, but do believe we have no option but to stay the course there now, no matter how bloody it gets, out of moral obligation, not only to our troops but to the Iraqis. I do however support the War in Afghanistan 100%, always have, due to their clear and present links to Al Queda and 9/11, so those to me are not exactly the kinds of thoughts a defeatist or peace-only leftitst would posess. But to say that every Arab is just born into the world hating Israel or the US is absolute and pure jingoistic BS of the worst kind. Just like slavery here in the South 150 years ago, it was something taught to the young by the older generations. Kids in the South didn't just come out of the womb with a whip in their hands. The same with radical Islam and groups like Hezbollah. And I'm sorry, yes, some of the blame does lie with the West, since we have been engaged in a Holy War with Islam for over a millenia, and after that, in the colonization by the British and French of Africa and the Mideast until the end of WW2. Then, right or wrong, we took part of that territory, and gave it to the Jews. How would we act if the Arabs came in and gave the Vatican or the Temple Mount to Atheists or some other religion forcibly? I did not say ALL of the blame lays with us, since the governments of the region are equally to blame, since most are corrupt, backwards, and oppressive. But to say we are entirely without blame in any way shape or form is nonsense. And to say that we have been even handed in the Mideast is to ignore history. The US has vetoed any and every resolution which has contained any negative wording against Israel-period!
But the point of my post was that while Israel has a right to defend itself, I don't support their right to go in and destroy another country. Especially a country who has a democratically elected government, which we supported the creation of. We supported Democratic elections in Palestine and Lebanon, because, after all, this was the only clear path to peace. Well, guess what, not every person in the Mideast loves the US as much as we do, so are we given the right to tell these people "You can elect a government, but only if it's one we like"? Apparently so. SO, let Israel do whatever it needs to do, even if it means taking the Army to Syria, but be prepared for the consequences, and don't come whining if suddenly there is a surge in suicide bombings. Because, just like our presence in Iraq (which has now made IED's and suicide bombers much more prevalent), it will happen. You can call that defeatist, I call it realist.
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Re: Bush was right
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Quote:
The problem I have with the lack of military service of some on the right wing is only that they decried Bill Clinton's lack of service. Like Dwight said, it's a goose, gander kind of thing
Also they need to disparage the service of those who are combat veterans who oppose their agenda in order to reduce the negative effect to their own campaigns.
The problem with Clinton was not that he had never been in the military. The problem was that he was on record saying he despised the military. That he lied his way out of military service. That he was on record saying the only reason he didn’t run to Canada to avoid the draft was to “Preserve his political viability.†That he had protested against the US military while in Europe. High ranking military officers were routinely shunned or insulted by his staffers. The military attaché who carries the nuclear codes was required to wear civilian clothes so as not to upset their staffers and political supporters. The list goes on and on.
Gore was a senators son who was purposely kept far from combat and had a bodyguard assigned to him to keep him safe. Once he had his Viet Nam service ribbon he left.
Kerry was only there to get his political ticket punched. He admitted that he panicked when he was reassigned from a very safe area to a zone where he might actually see combat. He wrote his own commendation recommendations because his superior officers knew he didn’t deserve them. He got out of there far short of a normal tour of duty and when he returned he acted as a propaganda agent of the enemy. He went before congress and told complete lies, accusing our troops of atrocities that never happened as if he had seen them. To top it off, he then tried to portray himself as a hero and a patriot.
The Democrats have lots of potential candidates who served honorably and a few who really were what John Kerry pretended to be. But they could never be nominated by their activist base. Bob Kerrey comes to mind.
As for the “Goose and Gander Thing.†When the Republicans nominate someone whose military career is as sordid as Kerry’s I’ll be glad to attack him too.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Bush was right
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Joined: Jun 2006
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Adjunct
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Adjunct
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Views are pretty polarized I guess!!?? If I can be allowed a few cents... The Middle East is a vastly more complex problem than most people so far in this thread have admitted to. You do not defeat a terrorist organisation with force. Full stop. Will I say that again? You do not defeat a terrorist organisation by force. If you think you can, name one. British history (of which overall I am proud)is littered unfortunately with occasions when we tried to brutally stamp out a "terrorist" organisation that didn't suit our empire's ambitions (the Boers in South Africa, where we invented concentration camps, and the IRA in Northern Ireland, where some of the "terrorists" are now Members of Parliament, immediately come to mind) with force. We never "won". Peace came when the inequities or illegalities or disenfranchisement that gave rise to the "terrorism" were addressed. If you want another example of how a "terrorist" became a respected politician, then look at Israel. In 1939 a militant Jewish group called the Stern Group split from an already blacklisted underground group called the Irgun with the intention of setting up terrorist cells in London and assassinating prominent British politicians. The Irgun blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, killing 91 Britons, Jews and Arabs and injuring many more. The Stern Gang assassinated Lord Moyne, the British military governor of Egypt. The leader of the Irgun who at one stage had a £2000 price on his head from the British Government as a terrorist most wanted? Menachem Begin, later to become Prime Minister of Israel in 1977. The leader of the Stern Gang? Yitzhak Shamir, elected Prime Minister of Israel in 1983. Define a "terrorist" organisation. Hundreds of thousands of Southern Lebanese look to Hizbollah as saviours; funding schools, hospitals, they effectively run southern Lebanon as a country within a country. There are a few people on this thread who obviously know their Middle East history, the rest, well, you're just being way too simplistic. Please read up about the subject before jumping to conclusions. Read The Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict www.cactus48.com/truth.html for a start. The only way to defeat "terrorism" is by talk and education. This is dismissed as namby-pambyism and defeatism and appeasement. It is not. If it takes guns to get people to the table to talk.. well so be it.. that is the correct use of force, to my mind.
The westernmost Triumph in Europe
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Re: Bush was right
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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I am well aare of how Israel claimed its turf. But now it is their turf and they have every right to defend it and keep it theirs.
I find the Israelis to be the most civilized of cultures in the middle east despite the manner in which they attained their independence.
They merealy won their revolution in the same manner we won ours. By death, destruction, terror, and not a little bloodshed.
They would not have attained it any other way. Nor would we.
War is in itself "terror" Can terror be defeated? Yes it can or at least its primary practitioners can be given reason to pause and reflect to what degree they wish to continue.
All that is necessary is to take of the kid gloves and do a little murder here an there. War is after all nothing more that organized murder. Murder enough terrorists and those who support them and you in effect do indeed win or at least set the effort back far enough for another generation or two to live in relative peace and harmony.
That is all Israel wants. That is all we want. That is why today both the US and the UK support Israel. Allies often make strange bedfellows do they not?
"Proud to be an Infidel" ... "100% pure American Jingoist"
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Re: Bush was right
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Adjunct
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OP
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I DESPISE the MORAL EQUIVALENCE argument.
Israel departed Lebanon years ago and is now attacked from there after the terrorist savages spent years fortifing their positions. More recently Israel departed Gaza and that set of terrorist savages launched attacks from there.
You can not negotiate with terrorist savages.
I HAVE READ MID EAST HISTORY AND THESE SAVAGES HAVE BROKEN EVERY PROMISE
Definition of insanity: do the same thing over and over and expect different results.
The only choice left is to kill them.
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Re: Bush was right
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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I concur. Isreal is the most civilized of nations in the region. At least they exist within the confines of the current century instead of steadfastly remaining in circa seventh century AD.
They deserve their piece of the pie. They have suffered far more than others simply through religious persecution and genocide.
The Jews learned the lesson of the Holocaust well. They will not hesitate to put diplomacy on the shelf when its clear the savages they are dealing with do not comprehend it.
"Proud to be an Infidel" ... "100% pure American Jingoist"
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Re: Bush was right
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Quote:
You do not defeat a terrorist organisation with force. Full stop. Will I say that again? You do not defeat a terrorist organisation by force.
But you do hit it hard whenever it rears it's ugly head. You keep it from becoming a defacto government and you disrupt it as much as possible.
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If you think you can, name one.
OK, the Jews of the first century
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If you want another example of how a "terrorist" became a respected politician, then look at Israel. In 1939 a militant Jewish group called the Stern Group split from an already blacklisted underground group called the Irgun with the intention of setting up terrorist cells in London and assassinating prominent British politicians. The Irgun blew up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, killing 91 Britons, Jews and Arabs and injuring many more. The Stern Gang assassinated Lord Moyne, the British military governor of Egypt. The leader of the Irgun who at one stage had a £2000 price on his head from the British Government as a terrorist most wanted? Menachem Begin, later to become Prime Minister of Israel in 1977. The leader of the Stern Gang? Yitzhak Shamir, elected Prime Minister of Israel in 1983.
Those were military targets, not school buses, sidewalk cafes, supermarkets and nightclubs. All of which are the preferred targets of the Jihadists. If Begin and Shamir had followed the current terrorist model the attacks would have been in London against civilians, like the IRA.
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Define a "terrorist" organisation. Hundreds of thousands of Southern Lebanese look to Hizbollah as saviours; funding schools, hospitals, they effectively run southern Lebanon as a country within a country.
And they are now sacrificing those same people by hiding among them as they fire their rockets. Using them as human shields, purposely getting as many of them killed as possible so they can then blame Israel for the deaths.
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The only way to defeat "terrorism" is by talk and education. This is dismissed as namby-pambyism and defeatism and appeasement. It is not. If it takes guns to get people to the table to talk.. well so be it.. that is the correct use of force, to my mind.
According to the terrorists themselves there can be no real negotiation. Negotiations and cease fires exist only to give them breathing room to recruit and resupply.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Bush was right
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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The Jews learned the lesson of the Holocaust well. They will not hesitate to put diplomacy on the shelf when its clear the savages they are dealing with do not comprehend it.
Hummmm......Let's see, Kevin. You're absolutely RIGHT(well...on the whole anyway) with this observation about Jews "not taking it anymore".
You see, WAAAAAY before those "RELIGIOUS" individuals, who sit their collective a$$es upon most of the earth's petrochemical supply(I'm talkin' Arabs here people) started this "HOLY WAR" against those who show THEIR "RELIGOSITY" with those funny little caps on THEIR collective heads(I'm talkin' Jews here people), Those OTHER "RELIGIOUS" people, who up to an including 1945 in a certain supposed "CHRISTIAN" country(I'm talkin' Germany here people...but Anti-Semitism appears to run deep through the veins of many SUPPOSED "christians" to this day, regardless of nationality)....HAVE tried for centuries to extinguish the Jews.[also see: Spanish Inquisition, Russian/Jew persecution...oh...the list is actualy ENDLESS, isn't it?!)
SO...they decided that because they orgininally came from Utah(sorry, I sometimes get my RELIGIOUS persecuted wanderers mixed-up)...er....I mean Palestine, they decided that because OTHER RELIGIOUS(read: mainly "Christiandom") seemed to NOT want them around, they would go and live all by themselves, ALL TOGETHER(non-Jews are tolerated...but you know the old saying..."some people are more "equal" than others"). Of Course, THIS little plan kind of upset those who had lived in Palestine for generation upon generation(read: Islamic followers).....AND SO...........................
OH, FORGET IT! As ANYONE can plainly see WHAT I'm saying here is that, as our friend indy288 mentioned above.....
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2000 YRS. OF FIGHTING AND THEY STILL HAVEN'T ACHEIVED ANYTHING. THEY ARE STILL TRIBESMEN! THE WORST THING WE COULD DO TO SADDAM WOULD BE GIVE THE ENTIRE SH-- HOLE BACK TO HIM. BARB WIRE THE MIDDLE EAST AND DON'T LET ANYONE OUT AND LET THEM FIGHT!
.......
....And one of indy288's words should be especially noted(BTW, I actually think you're on to something here, indy). AND, that word is TRIBALISM! And, THAT WORD seems to me to ultimately represent the CRUX of the PROBLEM in ANY SOCIETY that mixes it's RELIGION and it's POLITICS!(aren't you people GLAD that THIS DOESN'T ever happen HERE?....that was a sarcastic question, people)
Cheers,
Dwight
(never been so proud to be agnostic, whenever I see the devastation that RELIGION "helps" foster)
(oh sorry...I forgot to have you people look into the "Catholic/Protestant, Ireland" and the "Hindu/Islamic, India/Pakistan"[among many others] relationships TOO)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Bush was right
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Greenhorn
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The present terrorists are not, strictly speaking, Muslims. They are derived from a sect called the Assassins originally formed almost 1000 years ago by Hassan-i-Sabah. (They don't believe in Muhammed so much as his incarnation as he appears in each generation personified i.e. Bin Laden, etc.) They're real goal is to infiltrate a society, create Jihad by pitting factions of that society against each other, and then take over in the aftermath. Jihad is achieved not just through terror, or by assassinating a head of state, but by continually picking at particular controversial and sore points in a society. Another way Jihad is created is through the manipulation of a particularly important commodity such as oil. A thousand years ago it was spices (to preserve food) and paper (for printing books) driving Europe into the Dark Ages through starvation and ignorance. By creating this sort of Jihad in that society, it will take itself apart without them ever having to go to war. In other words, they assassinate the head of state through the creation of fanaticism and conspiracy theories, etc. aimed at particularly vulnerable and gullible segments (right and left) of that society dividing it through controversy and doubt. Judging from the heatedness of this discussion, their tactics are working quite well here.
Nihil est intellectu quod non prius fuerit insensu
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Re: Bush was right
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Joined: Mar 2006
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Noted Dwight. ....Noted.
But I still think its ok to kill terrorists carte blanche. The more the merrier I say. I do think these dune bunny arabic types to be of a particularly nasty variety.
We need an international Orkin Man. Thats the ticket. He would work for us of course and get paid by us. No sidework as it were.
"Proud to be an Infidel" ... "100% pure American Jingoist"
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Re: Bush was right
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Kevin,
YOU noted my treatise on the dangers of NOT "putting childish things away"(as I UNPOPULARLY view religion to be a childish view of the world), but there seems to be few others on this friggin' planet who share my view on this topic, as most people call themselves "religous" to some degree or other.
It's called the "GOLDEN RULE", people! And it doesn't take a "belief" in some "deity" or some "prophet" to make it work!!!
THAT'S IT FOR ME, HERE! I've had it with this sad freakin' subject.
BYE,
Dwight
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Bush was right
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Adjunct
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The GOLDEN RULE only works for people/cultures who think as you do. Take off the rose colored glasses and see these savages for what they are. They want to push Israel into the sea because they are Jews and kill all of us because we are infidels.
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Re: Bush was right
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Then let's kill 'em all, bogie!
I understand that there's a plane leaving for Tel Aviv on El Al(Flt#666) out of Hartsfield(ATL) tomorrow at 5pm.
Your reservation has already been made, but you'll have to check your M-16 at the counter.
Cheers,
Dwight(rose-colored glasses optional)
(see how handy working for the airlines(NWA) comes in)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Bush was right
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I have already served my time. Your smart ****** remark re my inclination/ability to serve is typical of arguments from the left and in no way changes the fact that these savages want to kill ALL of us.
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Re: Bush was right
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Hey, bogie! YOU'RE the one who had all the answers here!("kill 'em all")
I'm JUST tryin' to help YOU out as best I can!
Why the attitude, DUDE?!
Cheers,
Dwight
(and people say airline employees don't seem to be as helpful anymore since deregulation....go figure!!!)
(see! I keep tellin' Phil that he's just GOT to start that there Comedy/Politics Forum.......Will you ever LISTEN Phil?) 
Last edited by Dwight; 07/25/2006 3:34 PM.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Bush was right
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No you are not, your remark was designed to refute my point, based on my service, that there is no solution till one side achieves victory.
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Re: Bush was right
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
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Quote:
No you are not, your remark was designed to refute my point, based on my service, that there is no solution till one side achieves victory.
Man, bogie! You picked up on THAT "real quick", didn't cha?!
LOOK! Human History has PROVED that "TOTAL VICTORY" against a foe who's entrenched within a populous of similar mindset(religion in this case), and NOT one or two NATIONAL interests(sovereign nations) is a fools venture. Our NOW close friends, the BRITISH, learned this leason in America in the late eighteenth century and in India later on among others...see: Guerrilla Warfare)
I could go on and on and on about the LEASONS that unfortunately are never learned about such a course(anybody for Vietnamese food today), but I can see that when somebody as gung-ho to "kill them"(or in YOUR argument's defense..."us") as you seem to be, is primed, it's useless to debate.
THAT'S all I'm sayin' here. SMART will win out in the end...NOT force. AND, as much as you think AMERICA is omnipowerful...I'm sorry to inform you that this just isn't true!(oh! I can hear the "you're un-american" chorus warming up backstage right now)
And SO....to come "full circle" with your posting's original premise that.."Bush was right", I can only say that the gentlemen LACKS the intelligence(no...NOT the C.I.A) to be "right" about much.
Nice chattin' wit" cha dude.
Later,
Dwight
Last edited by Dwight; 07/25/2006 4:16 PM.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Bush was right
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Germany
Japan
Italy
Last time it was tried it worked pretty well
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Re: Bush was right
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Sovereign nations ALL!(see: above)
Last edited by Dwight; 07/25/2006 4:18 PM.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Bush was right
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Hamas is not the elected majority of the PLO savages?
Hezballa(sp) is not a part of the Lebanon (which was a Christan nation before the terrorist savages tore it up) government?
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Re: Bush was right
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Joined: Mar 2006
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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quote...
LOOK! Human History has PROVED that "TOTAL VICTORY" against a foe who's entrenched within a populous of similar mindset(religion in this case), and NOT one or two NATIONAL interests(sovereign nations) is a fools venture. Our NOW close friends, the BRITISH, learned this leason in America in the late eighteenth century and in India later on among others...see: Guerrilla Warfare.
.......................................
Well Dwight thats twisting the facts of history just a bit...revisionist history seems a preamble for liberals. but anyway. Entrenched enemies can be beaten. I do believe it is necessary to utterly destroy them though.
Nazi Germany was a very entrenched society that was highly indoctrinated certainly more so than many of the little puny Islamic wannabe superpowers. The degree to which the philosophy of Adolph and company was passed down even to young children cannot be dismissed.
We beat Germany by utterly and ultimately ruthlessly murdering their soldiers, citizenry, infrastructure, leadership right down to the last nats keister.
Japan/ Need I elaborate on Japan? We killed more Japanese simply fire bombing Tokyo than both little nukes accomplished in both Nagasaki and Hiroshima. We literally razed those cities to the ground.
Now. No one has waged war since then with such intensity.
But it would be a stretch to say that total ruthless warfare would not bring about a clean victory in any of these puny little muslim countries.
It only takes a hard heart to do it. We may be pushed to this point eventually if the policy of appeasement is ever fully adopted.
Just think.....when we had the first problems with the raghead insurgency in Fallujah..... If we had simply given a brief 24 hour notice to the populace to evacuate the city and then simply subjected it to total utter complete modern warfare from the air and from intelligent artillery and armor. Hey... no place left for the Zarqawis to hide. Just reduce the cities they hide in and the infrastructure and then...declare victory. If they hide in a new city you destroy that as well. When they reach there last little enclave .....its all over.
We have so many precedents ..Dresden/Tokyo/Kyoto every other amjor city in Germany and Japan was completely destroyed. Then and only then was the wind so taken from the Nazi and Japanese sails that surrender was given.
So I am not so sure that victory cannot be attained by use of ruthless total warfare short of using nukes.
The Japanese may have been the most fanatical of the axis powers in many ways. The whole Bushido thing coupled with the hero worship thing for the emperor. Even then when all was said and done Hirohito himself realized his people and thier ideology was defeated never to rise again.
It never did. Nor did Germanies. Those wars ended the imperialistic outlook for both countries for as long as any of us will ever know.
So it would be unwise to assume these radical islamic nations could not be defeated. It simply takes enough firepower and the willingness to have a hard heart.
"Proud to be an Infidel" ... "100% pure American Jingoist"
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18
Complete Newb
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Complete Newb
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Germany was not entrenched. It was a country at war. Japan was the same. What Dwight was talking about is the insurgency within Iraq. Iraq as a country was defeated, but the ideas such as America as the Great Satan, was not. As I read these posts, the following statistics were just reported. In Iraq they have averaged over 100 killed daily for 2 months. President Bush was just at a conference with the President of Iraq where Bush announced plans to increase the US presence in Baghdad. That is right, finally, he is realizing we have had an inadequate force in Iraq.
In Baghdad, it is not safe to be in public. The Green Zone is the only place officials go.
I read an earlier post where someone said we just need to stay the course. Excuse me, but we are not winning here. Attacks are up 42% over last year and we are sending more troops into the capital city...not a definition of victory.
Additionally, the comparison of GW and Lincoln is a little disingenuous at best. Lincoln had a rebellion to deal with. That is a tad different than attacking another sovereign nation in a preemptive fashion. Afghanistan was one thing, they held and supported the group who attacked us. Iraq DID NOT...yes I am screaming. Why that point is not understood behooves me. NO ONE in power really beleives Iraq was connected to 9-11.
Have we forgotten Colin Powell at the UN telling the world that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction? This was the original reason. Then when everyone, including the president, realized this was false, the purpose moved to supporting democracy...ppaalllease. One thing is certain, there are now 1000's more terrorist than there was before the Iraq war. What a shame.
Finally, I have read every post and I find it a little disconcerting that the only way some debate a point is through ad hominem (personal attacks). Stay to the point, and debate the issues, not the people : )
06 America, debaffled pipes, modified box, 132 jets, 1 shim
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Re: Bush was right
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THERE WERE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION
We are winning but, if we are having a tougher time than anticipated, we should "cut and run"? Great plan that will keep the terrorist savages from taking another 3000 AMERICAN LIVES ON AMERICAN SOIL again!
Iraqs connection to 9/11 is not and never was the point, again just another ruse of the left to destroy the war effort. The issue was Saddam's support of international terrorism and the belief that 1) He was developing weapons, and 2). He would then use or sell them to our enemies.
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Re: Bush was right
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
Germany was not entrenched. It was a country at war. Japan was the same. What Dwight was talking about is the insurgency within Iraq. Iraq as a country was defeated, but the ideas such as America as the Great Satan, was not. As I read these posts, the following statistics were just reported. In Iraq they have averaged over 100 killed daily for 2 months. President Bush was just at a conference with the President of Iraq where Bush announced plans to increase the US presence in Baghdad. That is right, finally, he is realizing we have had an inadequate force in Iraq.
In Baghdad, it is not safe to be in public. The Green Zone is the only place officials go.
I read an earlier post where someone said we just need to stay the course. Excuse me, but we are not winning here. Attacks are up 42% over last year and we are sending more troops into the capital city...not a definition of victory.
Additionally, the comparison of GW and Lincoln is a little disingenuous at best. Lincoln had a rebellion to deal with. That is a tad different than attacking another sovereign nation in a preemptive fashion. Afghanistan was one thing, they held and supported the group who attacked us. Iraq DID NOT...yes I am screaming. Why that point is not understood behooves me. NO ONE in power really beleives Iraq was connected to 9-11.
Have we forgotten Colin Powell at the UN telling the world that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction? This was the original reason. Then when everyone, including the president, realized this was false, the purpose moved to supporting democracy...ppaalllease. One thing is certain, there are now 1000's more terrorist than there was before the Iraq war. What a shame.
Finally, I have read every post and I find it a little disconcerting that the only way some debate a point is through ad hominem (personal attacks). Stay to the point, and debate the issues, not the people : )
You are as are all liberals sadly uninformed in the truth of History. The only history you see is current REVISIONIST history and of course you have no problem distorting 60 year old history. LOL . Try watching the history channel on WW2 or crack a book and over time you will become enlightened. (i doubt it but we can hope)
Saddam was TERROR personified. Perhaps you choose to forget as do all lefties that the entire congress and senate bought into the war and many of the loudest communist mouthpieces from the left including the loser john skerry who voted for the war bofore he voted against it ......were and are on record supporting the removal of Saddam and regime change in Iraq. The fact that the anti-American left has gone off the charts in terms of its pro-terror rhetoric since the first inkling of something bad happening in Iraq is proof of the duplicity and lack of patriotism of the left. (Imagine a war that goes perfectly...LOL) lets make fun of our troops and vilify our own country ...Oh joy isnt this fun?
Oh and by the way have all you lefties forgot about the sovereign nations that Iraq attacked over the years? Doh!
Did you all forget there complete lack of cooperation with the UN sanctions and weapons inspection programs for years after the first Gulf war!? Did you forget the lackof cooperation as to the no fly zones that were put in place?
And did you bleeding heart liberals forget about the Kurds that Saddam's thugs practiced genocide on with WMD?
Attacked a sovereign nation my Azz! We attacked a country that had and always had strong ties to terror groups.
The American left is indeed viewed by Islamic terror groups as their greatest ally. Not much future in being viewed as allies to terrorists is there?
Any you guys wonder why the right pounds the message home at every turn.
Now for a lesson....
Germany and Japan were complete fascist/indoctrinated entrenched societies that we defeated by force of arms. It took a united effort but it was done and it was most bloody.
That is a fact that cannot be denied.
They were dedicated totally to world domination as are the Islamo-fascists of today. Todays Islamo fascists repeatedly and almost weekly repeat a mantra of hatred for Israel and for the West in general. Only a fool would think they DONT need to be handled. Wherever they are.
Thats the end of todays History channel presentation.
Thanks and Good Night.
"Proud to be an Infidel" ... "100% pure American Jingoist"
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