 Anyone else notice this at the limiter?
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,378
Learned Hand
|
OP
Learned Hand
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,378 |
If i hit my limiter hard, my bike cuts out completely and takes up to 10 seconds to start firing again. Anyone else find that same thing? I'm not 100% sure but it may be the needles being too rich. Even tho i'm in the mains territory when WOT, it never did this before till one day when i installed thruxton needles. That was the first time. After that i swapped them for TBS which i shimmed to where they were the same length as the thruxtons and it still does it. So that may be it, and i probably should remove a shim.But i was wondering if anyone else has this problem and if you have any explanation of why slightly rich needles would cause this at WOT. The bike runs perfectly otherwise so i don't see why it should be overly rich.I know it's not the mains because i have put smaller mains in with no change.
Last edited by dazco; 05/25/2006 10:24 AM.
|
|
|
Re: Anyone else notice this at the limiter?
|
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 52
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 52 |
Far as I know, you are supposed to shift before you hit the limiter.
Why would you want to hit the limiter 'hard'?
|
|
|
Re: Anyone else notice this at the limiter?
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,308 Likes: 4
Worn Saddle
|
|
Worn Saddle
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,308 Likes: 4 |
Every 270º motor does this. The 360º motors don't. It has to do with the difference in timing and that it is a lot more difficult for the pulse to get a grip back onto the proper timing since they are are at 90º variences and the others just re-sync easily every revolution, a more easily set interval.
This is also the reason the after market is having such a hard time making a new CDI box for our motors.
A word to the wise is not necessary. It is the stupid ones who need the advice.
Pat
|
|
|
Re: Anyone else notice this at the limiter?
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 318
Adjunct
|
|
Adjunct
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 318 |
I had that happen to my total surprise... I have 45 pilots, had Thruxtons, did not do it then. I felt I was too rich so I went back to the stock needles with 1 shim.
The bike really lit up... guess I found the right balance. My theory is NOW the engine is really pulling for fuel, rather than me pushing fuel at it that it could not use.
I think I am simply running out of fuel when I hit the limiter and stay on it into 3rd gear.
What's a guy to do?
Ride like a Combat Fighter Pilot
|
|
|
Re: Anyone else notice this at the limiter?
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,378
Learned Hand
|
|
OP
Learned Hand
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,378 |
Thanks. I had considered that many times but whenever i've discussed the subect here or elsewhere no one ever suggested that IS the reason. Maybe the reason i never got that at first is that untill i got my bike tweaked and tuned well enough it wasn't able to get to the limiter as fast as it now does. So therefore it would not be increasing the RPM's as fast and would hit the limiter and i would get the quick cutoff and restart as soon as the revs dropped which as a second if that.
But now it revs up so fast that the engine's inertia takes it past the limiter to where the 270 phenom kicks in. make sense?
Quote:
Every 270º motor does this. The 360º motors don't. It has to do with the difference in timing and that it is a lot more difficult for the pulse to get a grip back onto the proper timing since they are are at 90º variences and the others just re-sync easily every revolution, a more easily set interval.
This is also the reason the after market is having such a hard time making a new CDI box for our motors.
Last edited by dazco; 05/25/2006 11:51 AM.
|
|
|
Re: Anyone else notice this at the limiter?
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,378
Learned Hand
|
|
OP
Learned Hand
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,378 |
Lets just chalk it up to the fact that you aren't me and i'm not you and leave it at that rather than going into a long explanation, which i DO have. Quote:
Far as I know, you are supposed to shift before you hit the limiter.
Why would you want to hit the limiter 'hard'?
|
|
|
Re: Anyone else notice this at the limiter?
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,308 Likes: 4
Worn Saddle
|
|
Worn Saddle
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,308 Likes: 4 |
This was actually described to me by Jojje, the Wild Swede with the Turbo Bonnies. That is also the reason he doesn't do the 270 ignitors and just the 360s. Also the reason Jojje made a custom ignition system for Bill Gately's flat tracker which uses the really big bored 270 motors as well. Big secret what he did for him and ther is some agreement between them NOT to share this info either. They don't want to give away any advantage on the track. Reason enough for me. If you want to learn more about it, drop Jojje a line, or maybe one of the real electrical engineers here can chime in with the full technical explanation and make your brain hurt. 
A word to the wise is not necessary. It is the stupid ones who need the advice.
Pat
|
|
|
Re: Anyone else notice this at the limiter?
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,378
Learned Hand
|
|
OP
Learned Hand
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,378 |
Quote:
This was actually described to me by Jojje, the Wild Swede with the Turbo Bonnies. That is also the reason he doesn't do the 270 ignitors and just the 360s.
Also the reason Jojje made a custom ignition system for Bill Gately's flat tracker which uses the really big bored 270 motors as well. Big secret what he did for him and ther is some agreement between them NOT to share this info either. They don't want to give away any advantage on the track. Reason enough for me.
If you want to learn more about it, drop Jojje a line, or maybe one of the real electrical engineers here can chime in with the full technical explanation and make your brain hurt.
Do you think the nology coils would help to make it start firing again sooner after this happens? It's a PITA because no matter how i try to shift B4 it happens i still do it occasionally. I can shift in time some of the time, but a combination of not wanting to watch the tach to closely when winding it out to the max for obvious reasons,(if any time is a good time to keep your eyes on the road it's then !) and because it tends to rev to that point so fast it's often hard to determine when to shift, causes it to happen at least some of the time. If nology coild would allow it to start firing again much faster i'd consider them. Sometimes it literally dies for 10 seconds ! (tho usually about 1/2 that)
|
|
|
Re: Anyone else notice this at the limiter?
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,308 Likes: 4
Worn Saddle
|
|
Worn Saddle
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,308 Likes: 4 |
Excellent question. With the beefier spark, perhaps the CDI can re-engage quicker. Hey, someone with those coils, go try this and report back! When I hit my limiter, not as much as I used to, it usually needs to drop down to about 2.5-3k rpm before it fires again. I hate when that happens. 
A word to the wise is not necessary. It is the stupid ones who need the advice.
Pat
|
|
|
Re: Anyone else notice this at the limiter?
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,877
Should be Riding
|
|
Should be Riding
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,877 |
I think when I hit my limiter it just kinda sputters a little and stops accellerating and I shift and it's fine. Maybe in shifting the revs drop enough? I dunno... But there's definitely only a split second of power loss... Not 10 seconds for sure.
Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
|
|
|
Re: Anyone else notice this at the limiter?
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Quote:
Far as I know, you are supposed to shift before you hit the limiter.
Why would you want to hit the limiter 'hard'?
I'm with you on that one Sparkie! That's like saying, "Every time I poke my forehead with a fork, It bleeds." The question is, "Why do you poke yourself" - Not why do you bleed?" Geeeesh! Get ready to do another autopsy, Pat...
|
|
|
Re: Anyone else notice this at the limiter?
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 228
Adjunct
|
|
Adjunct
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 228 |
I can't argue about the timing but I have another theory. I have the bike cutting out in first and second all the time before hitting the limiter and maybe third (can't rememeber about 3rd) but only when I start flat out hard(Ok I'm racing someone from a stand still). I have cams and big bore and I know I'm sucking some fuel. It's worse with Truxton needles. Additionally my fuel consumption has increased with Truxtons. I was getting over 140 before hitting reserve and now it's 130 or less. Don't get me wrong, the bike is strong and I have learned how far I can push it before the cut outs but it's not right. Consider what Bellacorse says about the stock pet cocks flowing 30 oz of fuel per minute as opposed to 90 for the Pingle. It works out to half ounce of fuel per second for 2 fuel bowls IF your 2 screens are perfect. That isn't a whole lot of fuel when you consider how long it takes to run through first gear. I have to figure it's 3 seconds or less, maybe 4. With 4 seconds it's 1 ounce per bowl if bellacorse is right. Maybe it's more than 4 but bottom line it doesn't seem like enough fuel for those of us that have modified for max performance. I have had my measured shots of Tequila and I just don't think it's enough.
"They don't call it a SPEEDMASTER for nothin"
|
|
|
Re: Anyone else notice this at the limiter?
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,378
Learned Hand
|
|
OP
Learned Hand
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,378 |
Quote:
I'm with you on that one Sparkie! That's like saying, "Every time I poke my forehead with a fork, It bleeds." The question is, "Why do you poke yourself" - Not why do you bleed?" Geeeesh! Get ready to do another autopsy, Pat...
Gee, thanks. This is why i post elsewhere most of the time. If you stopped for a second and considered that maybe it's not a matter of being an idiot, which you are obviously inferring, but that i might actually have a legit reason maybe you'd have thought twice about posting an insulting reply. But apparently you haven't quite that much tact. Read what i said to Dinqua....
Quote:
Do you think the nology coils would help to make it start firing again sooner after this happens? It's a PITA because no matter how i try to shift B4 it happens i still do it occasionally. I can shift in time some of the time, but a combination of not wanting to watch the tach to closely when winding it out to the max for obvious reasons,(if any time is a good time to keep your eyes on the road it's then !) and because it tends to rev to that point so fast it's often hard to determine when to shift, causes it to happen at least some of the time. If nology coild would allow it to start firing again much faster i'd consider them. Sometimes it literally dies for 10 seconds ! (tho usually about 1/2 that)
Maybe your bike doesn't hit the limiter nearly as fast, but i assure you mine does and that it's not an easy task to get the max accelleration out of it w/o this malady. Thanks for contributing the 2nd insult in this thread. geez....
|
|
|
Re: Anyone else notice this at the limiter?
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,378
Learned Hand
|
|
OP
Learned Hand
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,378 |
Thanks for offering a mature answer. Sounds like you're exactly where i am with the same issue and even found it worse with thruxtons like i did. The fuel issue is one i've considered too, but do you think it could really suck the bowl too low that quick? seems unlikely tho i don't know enough to say for sure. But this morning i went WOT from a signal at a freeway ramp, so at that point the bowls should have been as full as possible. And it cut at the top of 2nd. Seems like it couldn't drain them that fast, especially considering the flow from the tank is adding all the time. but like you i also find it happening in the firsy 2 or 3 gears mainly if not "only".
Quote:
I can't argue about the timing but I have another theory. I have the bike cutting out in first and second all the time before hitting the limiter and maybe third (can't rememeber about 3rd) but only when I start flat out hard(Ok I'm racing someone from a stand still). I have cams and big bore and I know I'm sucking some fuel. It's worse with Truxton needles. Additionally my fuel consumption has increased with Truxtons. I was getting over 140 before hitting reserve and now it's 130 or less. Don't get me wrong, the bike is strong and I have learned how far I can push it before the cut outs but it's not right. Consider what Bellacorse says about the stock pet cocks flowing 30 oz of fuel per minute as opposed to 90 for the Pingle. It works out to half ounce of fuel per second for 2 fuel bowls IF your 2 screens are perfect. That isn't a whole lot of fuel when you consider how long it takes to run through first gear. I have to figure it's 3 seconds or less, maybe 4. With 4 seconds it's 1 ounce per bowl if bellacorse is right. Maybe it's more than 4 but bottom line it doesn't seem like enough fuel for those of us that have modified for max performance. I have had my measured shots of Tequila and I just don't think it's enough.
Last edited by dazco; 05/25/2006 1:08 PM.
|
|
|
Re: Anyone else notice this at the limiter?
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
|
Anonymous
Unregistered
|
Dale, you are absolutely correct. I was both tactless and thoughtless. You bought it and you should ride it however you want. Please parden my rude and unnecessary comments.
|
|
|
Re: Anyone else notice this at the limiter?
|
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 52
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 52 |
Quote:
Thanks for contributing the 2nd insult in this thread
I assume you mean me for the first one?
Perhaps I am dense but why do you find my comment and question insulting?
|
|
|
Re: Anyone else notice this at the limiter?
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,877
Should be Riding
|
|
Should be Riding
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,877 |
I think this is one of those instances that perfectly displays how hard it is (impossible) to convey tone of voice thru text, and how easy it could be to misinterpret it! I can see how it could have been taken as a bit of a sarcastic tone... OK now kiss and make up 
Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
|
|
|
Re: Anyone else notice this at the limiter?
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,017
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 3,017 |
OK Benny, first you want to spoon me...which I am adorable, so I can understand. But now you want to watch two other guys kissing... 
Mark
|
|
|
Re: Anyone else notice this at the limiter?
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 228
Adjunct
|
|
Adjunct
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 228 |
Dazco,
Sounds like you are doing it more often than I am. Have you checked your fuel screens. I know when I pulled the main tank valve I had a lot of grey sediment half way up the screen and there have been posts about trash in the tanks. Don't forget about the little screen at the carb inlet Tee. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me and I am looking for answers so I can put it behind me. I'm no carb expert and perhaps float bowls could be adjusted to avoid starvation if indeed it is the case. And I'd think the Pingle may be of no use either if the bowls are out of wack. I just want to beat that one guy on his 1200 Sporty where this has been giving me grief.
"They don't call it a SPEEDMASTER for nothin"
|
|
|
Re: Anyone else notice this at the limiter?
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,877
Should be Riding
|
|
Should be Riding
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,877 |
Didn't say anything about watching 
Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
|
|
|
Re: Anyone else notice this at the limiter?
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 8,639 Likes: 3
Old Hand
|
|
Old Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 8,639 Likes: 3 |
It just might be that you are having a fuel flow problem instead of just hitting the rev limiter.
I suppose it is also possible that you are accelerating so hard that inertia carries you well over the rev limit and the ignition shuts down untill you get back below the limit. You can test this by upshifting to see if it lights off sooner when the higher gear pulls the engine speed down.
Normally, hitting the rev limit results in the engine not firing one time in two or maybe two in three to keep it from going any faster, but it rarely shuts down completely.
If your bike is an '02, it might have come with a defective igniter module. There is a "quiet" recall on those in the form of a TB saying to replace the module free if it goes bad, providing the vin number of the bike falls in a certain range. If you do some searches, I'm sure the TB number will pop up because it's been mentioned in a few threads.
Let's hope there's intelligent life somewhere in space 'cause it's buggar all down here. -- Monte Python
|
|
|
Re: Anyone else notice this at the limiter?
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,378
Learned Hand
|
|
OP
Learned Hand
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,378 |
Quote:
Dale, you are absolutely correct. I was both tactless and thoughtless. You bought it and you should ride it however you want. Please parden my rude and unnecessary comments.
Wow ! Thanks. Makes me feel bad i said anything. Anyway, i appriciate that very much.
Quote:
Sounds like you are doing it more often than I am. Have you checked your fuel screens. I know when I pulled the main tank valve I had a lot of grey sediment half way up the screen and there have been posts about trash in the tanks. Don't forget about the little screen at the carb inlet Tee. It doesn't make a lot of sense to me and I am looking for answers so I can put it behind me. I'm no carb expert and perhaps float bowls could be adjusted to avoid starvation if indeed it is the case. And I'd think the Pingle may be of no use either if the bowls are out of wack. I just want to beat that one guy on his 1200 Sporty where this has been giving me grief.
yeah, in fact i removed the petcock a while ago and cleaned it out and removed the little cone filter at the carbs not long after. I did put an inline filter in that does take forever to refill when i hit reserve, but the only reason i didn't consider that a possibility is because like i said i can literally sit at a light for a time so that i know theres a full filter and float bowls, then wind it out and have it happen in 1st of second gear. So i know it can't be starving for fuel after one or 2 seconds. Also it did this before in installed that filter. (which is coming off) But yeah, the pathway is clean.
|
|
|
Re: Anyone else notice this at the limiter?
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,308 Likes: 4
Worn Saddle
|
|
Worn Saddle
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,308 Likes: 4 |
I like beer.
A word to the wise is not necessary. It is the stupid ones who need the advice.
Pat
|
|
|
Re: Anyone else notice this at the limiter?
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 194
Adjunct
|
|
Adjunct
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 194 |
I heard you like Bud Light.
My 2004 Speedy does the same thing that Dazco is describing at around 7400 rpm.
I just thought it was the nature of the beast.
|
|
|
Re: Anyone else notice this at the limiter?
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7
Monkey Butt
|
|
Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7 |
The ignition system on my BA is stone stock so maybe my experience is NA but when I've hit the limiter I have about a one second delay in the next higher gear before it'll kick in again. No tach so I've learned to shift by watching the speedo. Got to be careful or my buddies 1200 Sportster can catch me. (I just hate that) 
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
|
|
|
Re: Anyone else notice this at the limiter?
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,320
Learned Hand
|
|
Learned Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,320 |
My experience is the same with Ladisney's, I've punched out on the rev limiter a handful of times, and normally a two second lag at most (while I'm getting over my "oh sh!t" reaction, and actually upshifting) has the engine spinning under power again. Heck, maybe in two months my engine will be spinning under power again.
Michael D. Rodriguez
|
|
|
Re: Anyone else notice this at the limiter?
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,018
Learned Hand
|
|
Learned Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,018 |
Unplug your throttle position sensor. Your rev limiter will then operate normally. I know this may not be the correct answer to the problem but it will work.
|
|
|
Re: Anyone else notice this at the limiter?
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,018
Learned Hand
|
|
Learned Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,018 |
That was maybe too short of an answer. I had the same problem. I Changed jets and needles till I was sick of rejetting. The problem only moved up and down the rpm range. After unplugging the tps the rev limiter went back to normal operation. I can hit it as hard as I please an it will just cut back normally. NO complete shutoff as you are experiencing. The tps particually on the speedmasters seems to cause this for some reason. Performance will otherwise not be affected.
|
|
|
Re: Anyone else notice this at the limiter?
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,018
Learned Hand
|
|
Learned Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,018 |
Oh. One more thing. This was not my idea but from discussions over at the rat site. I also talked with jojje about it and he was pretty much in agreement with the problem with the tps effecting this problem on 270 motor.Though the problem with going over 8100 rpms is not related to this.
|
|
|
Re: Anyone else notice this at the limiter?
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,018
Learned Hand
|
|
Learned Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,018 |
definatly not a fuel flow or delivery problem
|
|
|
Re: Anyone else notice this at the limiter?
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 8,639 Likes: 3
Old Hand
|
|
Old Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 8,639 Likes: 3 |
The problem with the "second" rev limit at 8100 has to do with coil saturation. With a wasted spark system, (only way to run a 2 cylinder 4 stroke with a single crank position sensor) these engines spark twice as often as the 360 version. The T100 ignition will do the same thing at 16200.
Let's hope there's intelligent life somewhere in space 'cause it's buggar all down here. -- Monte Python
|
|
|
Re: Anyone else notice this at the limiter?
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,378
Learned Hand
|
|
OP
Learned Hand
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,378 |
Well, i know what it was. Just as i said in my first post...the needles WERE rich. removed a shime and went for a ride and hit the limiter or whatever it is (270 phenom or limiter, whichever) a number of time. Now it just cuts for a second and it's back to normal ! I knew it would be that because the first time it ever did that for so many seconds was when i tried thruxton needles. i had a stack of shims on my TBS needles to approximate the length of the thrux thinking the thrux were a tad thinner and therfore the TBS at the same lenght would be about right. so anyway, now it not only doesn't do this anymore but it runs like a cat with his balls stuck in a vice. that and the recent side gapped plugs have my bike running like it never has. seems like the torque went thru the roof because it pulls real hard when i twist the throtte at most any gear/RPM. I'm extremely happy with it more so than ever. This is what the twins SHOULD run like !
|
|
|
Re: Anyone else notice this at the limiter?
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,320
Learned Hand
|
|
Learned Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,320 |
Um, if you were addressing your last to me, I've got CRS carburetors that don't use TPS.
Michael D. Rodriguez
|
|
|
|
|
