Bonneville America Forums Forums Off Topic Discussion Forums Lounge Bush sold us out...

Anyone catch Bush's border plan last nite?

Never thought we would bend over and grab our ankles for Mexico.

Been doing it every day since the first Amnesty plan under Reagan, so why stop now. Big business gets cheap labor, and you had to know going in that he wasn't going to alienate the Hispanic vote. That was a given. Actually, the finest job of pandering I've seen in a long time. Pledging troops to the border (in a number that will do nothing except maybe help with Border Police operations), but insisting we can't have secure borders WITHOUT Guest Workers (that's funny, to me the simple plan is to secure the border first, THEN sort out the mess we have here, rather than letting more and more come in every day to become an ever more unmanageable problem)

All the politicians are stuck between a rock and hard place on this issue. They worry about alienating the Mexican American vote and at the same time middle America is demanding some sort of action. Hence there you are.

They will try to ride both sides of the fence regardless of ideology.

I could tolerate a "guest worker" program AFTER the border is secure. I have posted before my opinion (one that I am unable to defend with references) that the cheap labor hinders innovation, thus is a drain on our economy.

We already have a guest worker program. It's called a green card. They are not hard to get. It takes about 60 days. The paperwork is in Mexican. Secure the dam* border and use the program we have!!!!!

Dave

Would you like to guess who will eventually win out through sheer numbers? I venture to guess that it won't be too long before the middle class becomes irrelevant, due to the sheer size of the Hispanic population in the US, and the continued weakening of the middle class as the better paying jobs are being outsourced overseas or wages come down because there are skilled workers from other countries who will take the job for less money. Sorry, after watching the politicians from both sides over that last week, and last night after the speech, I become totally pessimistic that our government will ever do "what is right for us" instead of serving only their targeted voting groups. And I don't see any pressure for this to change for 2 reasons:
1. We have yet to have a viable 3rd Party candidate that will at least scare the bejesus out of both parties and get them to start acting better than my 10 and 6 year old fighting over toys! Until that day is here, we are about as powerless to change things as we are to do anything about gas prices, not much more than empty whining.
2. People are too apathetic any more to get out and vote or protest against something they feel strongly about. Over the past 2 months, we saw 10's or 100's of thousands of Latinos get out and march and demonstrate. Why are Americans not getting out and demonstrating for what is right for THIS country. "Oh, I'm too busy. Oh, I've got soccer practice. Oh, blah, blah, blah..." Well, why should a politician listen to us. He has 100's of thousands of demonstrators out there yelling for his attention and threatening to skew the vote in the next election, and then you have 300 Million actual citizens who can't be bothered to write their Senator or Congressman, let alone go out and organize a demonstration.

Truth be told ...I think our future is to become a very large third rate oversized Mexico sooner or later. The death of one of the finest cultures to have ever graced the earth is under way. Much as I hate to say that I believe it to be true. We will become as Mexico. A large very corrupt, third world country in chaos and eventually unable to defend ourselves.

Okay! Once again I'm going to surprise(and, shock of shocks)go against the grain here(and NO...I don't ALWAYS do this just for "effect", EITHER....sometimes, hell, MOST times, I really BELIEVE the crap...er...opinions that I disseminate around here)

In THIS case, there actually showed signs of intelligent life located between ol' Dubya's ears, for once.

This RATIONAL policy that he stated he will employ, with a combination of a much increased border protection AND a more thorough documentation policy, seems to me a good compromise.(and NO, ladies and gentlemen...that "compromise" word AIN'T a "bad word"...rational people COMPROMISE for the good of the majority)

Cheers,
Dwight
(and BTW Phil and FriarJohn...you were RIGHT to lock my little tirade yesterday...I WAS gettin' out o' hand)

(and Kevin...we may disagree about many things, but I like your spirit and appreciate your intelligence...but I think we CAN sometimes "over-do" these political rants around here)

It pains me to say it but I gotta go with Greg on this one. NO MORE AMNESTY! We had one 20 years ago, it was supposed to solve the problem and it just made it worse. So now we're going to do it again? I've heard that the definition of insanity is when you keep doing the same thing but expecting different results. We need to ask Alan Simpson to explain how the bill bearing his name stemed the flood of illegal aliens twenty years ago, and how doing it all over again will improve the situation. A nation that cannot or will not control it's borders is doomed, ask Poland.

Sure is fun at times. But I digress. Many cultures are toppled from within. I hope we do not sell short the founding fathers ideal for ourselves by becoming nothing more than a large oversized New Mexico with all the problems that the current residents south of the border have.

After all thats why they come here to escape all that. Will they bring all that corruption with them?

The Irish came in droves in the 1840's but they brought their muscle and their strength of character along with them. Same with the Italians and the Japanese and Chinese. They all adapted well. At times I see too much whining and belly aching amonst those who consistently illegally enter this land. I see an unwillingness to adapt to our greater culture and learn our language.

I do fear they want it to become the former American Democratic Republic and instead become the poorly governed future state of Amexica.

I hope I am wrong in that.

we need to clean house so to speak, there are elections comming up real soon and i think i will not vote for any incumbent in my region. if we vote out all the old timers and get some new blood in there maybe someone will get the message. but people wont do it!!! they keep voteing in the same good ole boys (ted kennedy) that keep stickin it to us (U.S.) if somebody comes up with a solution to anything, someone else starts complaining and the a.c.l.u. or some other group that politicians are afraid of steps up and sez "you cant do that" so nothing gets done. because some kid in arizona is allergic to peanuts we can no longer have peanut butter and jelly sandwiches at school??? it seems the only action that gets done is the one that causes all to suffer or none to suffer??? Americans havnt been pushed enough to stand up and i really dont know if they ever will. they (the powers that be) it seems are wanting this nation to fail and crumble. thats funny because when that happens there wont be a need for politicians and they dont see that. if they give amnesty to all the aliens that came over that border illeagaly then i expect to see thousands of pot smokers released from prison the next day because...what the heck they only broke a law that seems unfair anyway. if mexicans can break the law then why cant Americans???? i expect amnesty for anybody that is in prison for any crime that didnt involve someone getting hurt. some of those prisoners were productive citizens, holding jobs, paying bills, children in school, and wives shopping in malls. WHATS THE DIFFERENCE??????????

Before you say "A pox on all their houses," check and see what they have actually done. The House of Representatives has already passed a strong border enforcement and illegal deportation bill. If this issue is important to you see where your individual representatives and senators stand. Otherwise you have a good chance of tossing out someone who agrees with you, and getting someone who doesn't in their place. Take the time to become an informed citizen.

Larry, I sometimes wonder if it isn't something inevitable, for any powerful nation or empire. I may be wrong, but I think if we study most of the great empires, a trend will be seen, where in the early days of the Empire/Republic/etc..., society is strong, because that society is fighting to establish itself and to survive. Then as decades, or centuries go on, the citizens of that society strive with each generation to make life better(easier, more prosperous) than the preceding generation, and in so doing, become more and more of an entitlement society. I know I may sound like an old fart here, but the big complaint that you always hear from your parents is "you don't know how good you have it", and I look at todays teenagers and start thinking like an "old fart", "why don't they get a haircut", or "must be nice to ride around in a H3" or whatever, and if you talk to many young people, they feel that they "deserve it". I sometimes wonder if we don't spoil ourselves in the process, trying always to make life better, so that in the end, we aren't willing to work to save the better life we built. It happened with Rome, the Ottomans, the Mongols, etc..., where the younger generations became used to having a better and better life, and felt entitled to that life, and that they shouldn't have to work for it. May be all washed up, and there is I'm sure much more to it than that, but sometimes, when I look at history, I wonder... Well, time to go put the tea on and settle into the recliner. Damn kids, get off of my lawn....

Dwight, as much as I don't want to see the "Berlin Wall" snydrome, I think there is a significant difference here, and that that charge is somewhat hollow. The Berlin Wall was used to keep it's citizens captive, a solid impenatrable border (except at checkpoints) with Mexico to keep drugrunners and illegals out is a wholly different thing. And a token 6000 Guard troops on 2 week rotations is a far cry from "militarizing the border". Besides, we see fit to have an established permanent presence on the North Korean border, as well as in the Balkans, why should we not do the same with a neighbor that threatens our well being through their own inability, or unwillingness to fix their economy or maintain their own public order. These people on TV who say that we will strenghten Mexicos economy by having Guest Workers here and all of that nonsense are NOT looking out for our best interests, any more than the lobbyists who say outsourcing our technology jobs to Asia will strengthen our economy (maybe it will in 100 years after we've lost them all, and become hungry starving enslaved workers as is the case in China). I say, get off of the pot, put 20-25000 troops on the border, or if not troops, then permeate the border with every possible automated surveillance system we have at our disposal, and use the military to guide (and reinforce as necessary) the Border Authorities to the right spots (this has to be done in conjunction with a fortified border though, so that the number of possible infiltration points is minimized and controllable). Then, the 2nd Prong needs to be heavy pines or criminal charges against persons or companies found to be flagrantly hiring illegals. We currently require all foreign visitors to the US to do a fingerprint scan, perhaps the same should be done for all job applicants, instead of the usual documentation checks. Harder to fake a dead persons fingerprint than it is a Social Security Card. Once these two things are in place, give deference for a Guest Worker program to those with children ALREADY here, i.e. ONLY children who are already born and being supported by parents working here (and maintaining a clean record) will be given 1st place in line for the GWP. Then, we can work on the rest. With companies afraid to hire illegals (yes, there will always be those who try to skirt the law), the jobs will dry up (especially if something like a fingerprint ID system is in place), and those who don't meet the stringent requirements of guest workers will have to go home for lack of money.

Gee Greg, sounds a lot like that nasty bill in the House that the "moderates" in the Senate don't want to discuss.

It just doesn't make any sense to me. How is it that we owe rights, welfare, education, healthcare to people that are not a part of our society? Infact they do hold a place in our society, as criminals.

If this is the case why don't just start supporting every country?

The worse part is the majority of this country is completely against this and yet it continues to pass. This makes me believe that are government has got out control. I mean are we in the presence of an overbearing tyranical government??? What the hell is going on, how is it that we can't be heard.

I just don't know what else to do. All I can say is, never, ever give up your right to bear arms.

Moderates, which "moderates"? I consider myself a moderate, as I can find things from both parties that I hate and that I like (seems more and more that I find myself on the hate side of both parties). If you're referring to the key Democrats that get most of the airtime like Kennedy, I don't consider him a "moderate". This goes back to what I have said over and over, seemingly on pretty much every issue that comes up. Neither party is truly representing the majority of their constituents. The Republicans continue to pander to the far right while ignoring the majority who probably just want the government to be fiscally responsible and uphold the constitution, and the Democrats pander to the far left and Unions, against the majority of their constituents who want a government that provides some safety nets for people, while upholding the civil liberties of the Constitution. Hmmmm, seems like the majority of the Republicans, and the majority of the Democrats probably are a lot closer than either side would ever admit, but the Politicians have somehow hijacked the train and are going off and doing whatever whoever yells the loudest (and has the deepest pockets)wants...

"moderate"

Is a bill that proposes a "path to citizenship" to those who invaded our country "moderate", or is it in fact extreme?

The use of the word "moderate" to describe the Senate proposals is a gross example of the bias of the MSM (main stream media).

In contrast the House Bill that calls for enforcement of our sovereignty (supported by 80%prox of the population) is the one the MSM labels extreme.

This points out why those labeled "far right" by the MSM have trouble getting their message before the populace, their message is labeled and not reported accurately.

i wonder how a politician would handle it if a group of people came in his house an made themselves at home and said, oh and we want you to be responsible for our health care also???? i dont doubt they would call the law and get them out of their house !!! well these people are breaking into our house, if someone breaks in my house....i will not hesitate to SHOOT them!!!!!!

So ....should I pick up one of those "learn Spanish in thirty days CD's?"

You might as well. Case in point; here in South Florida, there are jobs that require the ability to speak spanish!

WTF?

Actually, we have a HUGE seasonal Canadian population.

You do not need a calendar. If you see tons of Quebec plates, it must be January in South Florida!

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In contrast the House Bill that calls for enforcement of our sovereignty (supported by 80%prox of the population) is the one the MSM labels extreme.

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Bogie, that 80% figure must come from some poll or other. 'Cause the percentage of eligible voters who actually vote (or even bother to register) isn't that high. And herein lies the major problem. When you have an apathetic electorate, the politicians must pander to the blocs that have high voter turnout. These blocs are usually passionate about certain issues, and their passion is reflected in political activism.(One group that seems to be passionate right now is the hispanics). If everyone who is eligible to vote, did, in fact do so, it would shake Washington to its' very foundations.

Just like here, if you see a ton of CA plates, it must be the weekend .

Well, as a Christian, a prosecuting attorney, a life long Republican and delagate to this years Colorado State Republican Assembly, I can't keep my mouth shut. I am one who has been very disappointed in much of the Bush Adminstrations governance. I feel Cheney and Rumsfeld should be fired or resign and that Carl Rowe is the scum of the earth. That being said, I think the President got it exactly right this time-His program imposes sufficient penal provisions on the illegals that there is no way that this is an amnesty program. The real amnesty bill is the Tancredo Bill that the House passed. Because it fails to comprehensively address what is to be done about the illegal aliens already here, nothing happens with or to them- and THAT is amnesty. So-I fully support the President-It would be nice to just deport them all-but that is clearly impossible, and without addressing their status now, closing the border would also be impossible.

I have a simple solution. Based on the fact that you can't stop the flow of people across the border, no matter what you do, take advantage of it.

Set up kiosks all along the border. Fingerprint everyone coming in. Give them a green card and a social security card. Put them to work. Charge them something like $20 for the paperwork processing. ($20 x millions = big bucks.)

Tax them like we all get taxed. The extra collected taxes help fix our deficit. The social security and medicare taxes collected will help fix the SS problem and pay for old folks' meds because the Mexicans all go back home to retire and the money is left for regular citizens.

Employer pulls health insurance from their checks like they do with us. Solves the problem of illegals bleeding the healthcare system. (The insurance lobby should be all over this; "there's money, big money, to be made..." [what song was that in?])

The fingerprinting makes undesirables think twice about doing something stupid, we have them in the database.

Anyone working here without papers is sent back to enter through the kiosk and get documented. Any employers are fined big time to make it too expensive to use illegals.

The employers who complain that there will not be enough low-wage employees (Americans are not reproducing fast enough to fill the future needs) get all the people they could want.

So simple it just might work.

A bill that closes our borders to all but LEGAL traffic is certainly NOT amnesty and the mental gymnastics required to reach such an inaccurate conclusion compare best to fiction. Aminal Farm comes to mind.

The government "solved" this problem in 1986, which did not work. Why try the "we have to do something about those who are here" thing again? CLASSIC DEFINITION OF INSANITY.

Dry up the jobs, schools, healthcare, welfare, etc. and they will leave. They got here on their own so I am sure they can get leave on their own. I would even support tax funds to buss them home. (Does that make me a liberal?)

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The real amnesty bill is the Tancredo Bill that the House passed. Because it fails to comprehensively address what is to be done about the illegal aliens already here

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This stuff about having to have a plan that addresses the 12-18 million here already TOGETHER with actions that secure our border against further floods of immigrants is pure nonsense, sorry! Yes, it would be nice, but it absolutely is NOT required (and I have yet to hear any proponents of this actually explain WHY the two are linked). Having one (security) before the other is not amnesty (not sure how that conclusion can be arrived at) since securing the border is distinctly separate from handling people already here. Securing the border now and figuring out what to do with the people here second is purely good strategy. Handle one problem at a time. In business, sometimes the reality is that you can't come up with the perfect solution right now, so you implement a compromise that will improve the situation to a bearable level while a much better long-term strategy is worked out. Sorry folks, not to sound condescending, but this isn't rocket science! We do it in business EVERY day as a normal course of business, only in the political world can something simple apparently be made unworkable. If my company ships a bad part to FORD, we handle it in a multi-phase approach. First, we implement containment, ie ensure through sorts or whatever, that no more bad parts can get out to the customer.(this is Border Security) Next, we pull all the people together who have a stake in the problem, and develop whatever reaction plan is needed to eliminate the cause of the problem, deal with bad parts still in house, etc…, so that this doesn't happen again. The containment buys us time to work out this plan so that all sides are happy (that is Congress taking time to hammer out a plan for dealing with the illegals currently here, as well as a long-term plan to reinforce and improve the Border Police, so that once the Military is pulled out of the border area, the problem of floods of illegals doesn't come right back). Then we move on to the next problem. Now, if anyone would like to tell me why this wouldn't work in the Immigration Issue (outside of the political reality that there are not enough in the administration with the courage to make an unpopular decision that will benefit us in the long term, even if it hurts current members in the short term!), not just "it won't work" (since it works in business a million times a day!), I am all ears. Besides being all ears, I'm also left- and right-handed, meaning, I am in the middle politically, so for me, if the plan that works wrecks either party, I don't care, because quite frankly, neither party deserves our support, nor have they deserved our support for some time!

What I want to know is, why weren't our borders secured immediately after September 11, 2001??? The would have been the thing to do. But NNOOOO! We wouldn't want to offend anyone.

Thats sad.

I ususally watch all the Presidential speech's but the movie "The Core" with Hillary Swank won out over "W". So I don't really know what he said. I'm pretty much put out with the whole administration, can't trust em. I guess I will just bend over and learn Spanish

i always go to the polls to vote . i resent the blind options that are offered to me. we never know what the candidate really stands for and i have come to the conclusion that my vote means NOTHING! both parties have lunch together and design our demise. you do notice that most candidates are attorneys. they all belong to the same club! they affiliate them selves with the two parties to give us the illusion we have a choice. a good third party would be a breath of fresh air. of the attorney ,by the attorney and for the attorney. citizen who? voter who?

Yes, a viable third party could be just what's needed to counter the fringes that the two we have now cater to. But more of us would have to get out and vote for it to mean anything. Also since the Ds and the Rs have made the election rules, it can be difficult for a third party to get on the ballots in some states. Another thing that could work is a "none of the above" option with some teeth, that is, if NOTA gets the most votes, the parties have to come back with different candidates. Sigh, it's all just wishful thinking though. The two parties seem to have a lock. But I'll still vote, even if it is for the lesser of two evils.