 Re: Iran and WMD and Islam and Wahabism
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Dwight, Call it what you want but to me it looks like whoever talks longest wins...
hehehehe, most accurate and undeniably factual statement in this entire thread  .
'05 America
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Re: Iran and WMD and Islam
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Its both. If you take away the prop that is provided by the backward religious theocracy then the King will face revolution I expect. In the case of Saudi Arabia its a combination of the two.Ok, so you think that if the theocracy were removed, then the people would rise up in revolution? That would indicate that the people not only support the current government, but actually want and desire it. I can see how you might come to that conclusion, after all, the people claim to be Islamic and the king professes that his rule is based on Islamic law. But actually, you cannot consider the current structure as representative of what the people desire, since they in no way had any input as to its design or operation. You might also conclude that since the people do not oppose the current structure, that is an indication of support for it. However, that ignores the oppressive control structure in place by the government to prevent any opposition, or even voicing of dissent. It also neglects to consider the level of 'thought control' impossed on the citizens of the country, by censorship and total control of information taught, at the hands of that government. If you were born in cage, and were never shown or taught anything but captivity, how could you imagine that there was anything else? Granted, that is an extreme analogy, but I'm sure you can see the parallel. Now, suppose you removed the dictatorship theocracy and replaced it with a democracy. Would you expect the people to elect a return to, perhaps not such an oppressive dictatorship theocracy, but some form of theocracy? I suppose you would if you accept the misconception that Islam is incompatable with Democracy. However, if you don't buy into the misconception, that brings us to your question: Which majority Moslem country has a functioning democracy?Ok, how about Turkey? 98.8% of their population is Muslim, yet they have a fully functional democratic society. The CIA World Factbook clasifies it as a republican parliamentary democracy and sums it up nicely: Quote:
After a period of one-party rule, an experiment with multi-party politics led to the 1950 election victory of the opposition Democratic Party and the peaceful transfer of power. Since then, Turkish political parties have multiplied, but democracy has been fractured by periods of instability and intermittent military coups (1960, 1971, 1980), which in each case eventually resulted in a return of political power to civilians.
In addition, their constitution ('called Anayasa' or 'Main Law') provides for strict seperation of powers, incuding seperation of church and state. The freedom and independence of the Judicial System is also protected within the constitution. There is no organization, person, or institution which can interfere in the running of the courts, and the executive and legislative structures must obey the courts' decisions.
As for foreign relations, they are members of many international organisations and persue peaceful policies, loosely following those based on Mustafa Kemal Ataturk's policy of "Peace at Home and Peace Abroad".
Similar to Saudi Arabia, they also have a high literacy rate (almost 90% of the population over 15) and compulsory education (for free up to the age of 15). However, they do not censor or limit access to information. There are around 820 higher education institutes, incuding 85 universities (some of which can compete with the best in the world). They also fully support scientific and and technical research and development, with some 64 research institutes and and organisations providing R&D strength in areas such as agriculture, forestry, health and biotechnology.
The constitution also supports freedom of religion, even though almost 99% of the population is Muslim. The constitutional rule that prohibits discrimination on religious grounds is taken very seriously. The Turkish constitution recognises freedom of religion for individuals, and the religious communities are placed under the protection of state, but the constitution explicitly states that they cannot become involved in the political process, by forming a religious party for example. No party can claim that it represents a form of religious belief.
So how is it that two countries, both with an overwheming majority of Muslims, differ so radically? Is it one of religion, or is it one of political structure?
Cheers,
Brad
To be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid.
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Re: Iran and WMD and Islam and Wahabism
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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How does this crap not get old for everybody.???
I ask myself that more than you can imagine... 
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Re: Iran and WMD and Islam and Wahabism
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John,
Okkkaaayyy...Finally a quote I can respond to.
I've been watching this stuff fill my mailbox and I've been feeling guilty not responding since one of my posts seemed to have revved up the conversation.
But, seems like it comes down to a few simple positions. On the one hand there are those who take a politically balanced view of the complexities of the international geopolitical interaction of conflict over resources, national security and the clash of culture as a complex and labyrinthine issue. And while recogizing a need for effective response to terrorism are cognizant of the broader picture. Not necessarily able to provide a "solution" they nevertheless recognize the reality that there is more going on than just a "bunch of crazy murderers who hate us".
And on the other, there are those who through shortsightedness or over-parochial outlook seem to be using the "truth" or "untruth" of a religion to, as far as I can tell, justify genocide on our part as a solution to a problem for which genocide or turning the US into a military state analogous to a modern Rome with generations growing up in uniform protecting American hegomony, or both, will NOT solve the problem.
While I enjoy debate, this one, for the time being, has gotten beyond my inclination to participate in. I'm checking out.
Tad
Patriotism: Supporting your country all the time and your government when it deserves it. M. Twain
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Re: Iran and WMD and Islam and Wahabism
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Quote:
John,
Okkkaaayyy...Finally a quote I can respond to.
I've been watching this stuff fill my mailbox and I've been feeling guilty not responding since one of my posts seemed to have revved up the conversation.
But, seems like it comes down to a few simple positions. On the one hand there are those who take a politically balanced view of the complexities of the international geopolitical interaction of conflict over resources, national security and the clash of culture as a complex and labyrinthine issue. And while recogizing a need for effective response to terrorism are cognizant of the broader picture. Not necessarily able to provide a "solution" they nevertheless recognize the reality that there is more going on than just a "bunch of crazy murderers who hate us".
And on the other, there are those who through shortsightedness or over-parochial outlook seem to be using the "truth" or "untruth" of a religion to, as far as I can tell, justify genocide on our part as a solution to a problem for which genocide or turning the US into a military state analogous to a modern Rome with generations growing up in uniform protecting American hegomony, or both, will NOT solve the problem.
While I enjoy debate, this one, for the time being, has gotten beyond my inclination to participate in. I'm checking out.
Tad
Regarding your generalist statement assuming that genocide is part of US policy towards our little islamic pals....
The use of that term in conjunction with our war against terrorism is ludicrous and is the fallback cry of liberal hand wringers throughout the US and the rest of the inadequate world today.
The US does not practice nor have we ever practiced genocide. We have simply been very efficient in "killing" during war time in response to the enemies real and undeniable policy of genocide.
I dont know about most folks but a few turban wearing representatives of the religion of peace flying OUR airplanes into the towers, the Pentagon and wanting to hit the white house while augering into the PA soil pretty much constitutes a genocidal act.
The German military machine and the Japanese military both practiced and utilized preconcieved "genocide" in hopes of bringing about their objectives.
The allies used extreme bombing to persuade,cajole, and push the axis powers to the point they had to believe that victory could not be attained.
The US has not and I believe never will be a Germany or Japan in its conduct of war as a direct means of offensive firepower. I do beleive we would not hesitate to use extreme means if we were attacked. (example given 9/11/01....remember that liberals?)
Whiny crybaby, goody too shoes , lets talk it over liberals are always trashing the US when it comes to our conduct of dealing with our little friends.
Trust me we are being more than judicious in our use of firepower to inflict persuasive means to the "bad guys"
In fact we have lost site of the fact that history proves time and time again that victory in warfare once started is best prosecuted with an overwhelming, powerful consistent policy of no mercy until the bad guys say.."uncle"
In so far as we have been "too nice" well perhaps it has reduced casualties but dragged the conflict out longer than desired. Perhaps a more ruthless prosecution of the war in Iraq would have resulted in a quicker more definitive response from the ragheads than has yet been effected. A few more of the little buggers may well have bitten the old bullet...but hey fortunes of war as they say.
Hind sight is always twenty twenty. Usually the best punch in a boxing ring is the one that brings the opponent to his knees and causes him to realize in the moment the punch is delivered and his consciousness leaves him is that he is defeated.
The idea of war once begun is to WIN. You can then dictate all terms and write your own history.
You dont have to worry about anything else at that point.
Last edited by clanrickarde; 04/27/2006 10:20 AM.
"Proud to be an Infidel" ... "100% pure American Jingoist"
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Re: Iran and WMD and Islam and Wahabism
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The US does not practice nor have we ever practiced genocide.
Well, OK, if you don't count what the US Government did to the original owners of the land we currently call America, ie the NATIVE Americans, then yes, you're right, besides that, we've never committed genocide.
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Re: Iran and WMD and Islam and Wahabism
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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Well, OK, if you don't count what the US Government did to the original owners of the land we currently call America, ie the NATIVE Americans, then yes, you're right, besides that, we've never committed genocide.
I can't believe I'm jumping in here. This statement is pretty outrageous.
http://www.tfd.com/genocide
I'm not saying that what we did to the "Casino-owner Americans" was right, but it was far from genocide. Cultural rape, maybe, but not genocide.
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Re: Iran and WMD and Islam and Wahabism
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Native American cultures were, depending upon tribes, themselves extremely ruthless in prosecuting warfare against themselves. (intertribal conflict)....historical instances of entire villages being wiped out including women, children and dogs is written repeatedly in their own histories. There were times in history when native Americans wiped out entire settlemements of European settlers as a common practice. I am sure they thought nothing of it at the time as this type of no quarter warfare is consistent with hunter/gatherer cultures of the era.
We did cross the line at times but I do not believe it was a preconceived "policy" but more an indication of the times themselves other than isolated instances of individual acts of murder in war. .. Example given.. the Wounded Knee massacre in Pine Ridge South Dakota.
Last edited by clanrickarde; 04/27/2006 10:29 AM.
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OK, I stand corrected. The forcible removal of a native peoples from their homelands through a series of calculated broken treaties to lands that were barely adequate for the sustaining of wildlife (Oklahoma comes to mind), let alone a civilization is FAR from genocide. And should those Natives decide that this was not acceptable they were hunted down and either forced to return, or shot/hanged as deemed fit.
I stand corrected....(heavily sarcastic tone here)
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I simply say that hunter gatherer cultures certainly understood the concept of no quarter and indeed practiced it as a modus operandi on a regular basis...on themslves as part of their place in the eco-system. They competed with the environment at large to survive and maintain food and shelter and also competed in intertribal warfare consistent to the point of genocide amongst themselves in an effort to simply ensure their survival. When faced with an encroaching European invasion they often inflicted a no quarter policy towards the invaders (understandable) and in turn were at times right or wrong subjected to the same.
This particular discussion is very interesting as I believe it goesa far beyond a simple idea of the word "genocide" but entails a true grasp of survival within an ecosystem. Thw whole hunter/hunted/prey thing is very much self evident amongst earlier hunter gatherer cultures in North America or anywhere else in the world in any age.
Perhaps we even should recognize our own desire to survive and prevail in our own greater ecosystem which now includes the entire globe.
Perhaps the morality of it all is rooted substantially in competition.
Last edited by clanrickarde; 04/27/2006 11:35 AM.
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"Moral Equivalence" ie "we did it too" is an argument for appeasement today when threatened?
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In any time or era of history and especially in times when the range of a group of homo-sapiens was limited to their ability to walk or travel on horseback we see a deeply rooted attachment to the base level "eco-system" that overrides any morality issues and is indeed a pure ....them or us mentality. If a tribe or culture had lived in a specific land area for as long as their recorded history verbal or written indicated and then required that hunting territory for sustenance they would kill with zero regard to morality in efforts to ensure that ground remained their property. Much like insects or animals defend territory and in turn prey upon themselves with a brutal yet efficient regard for the continuance of their specie or sub group.
Native Americans saw themselves as part of the circle of life as it were. No surprise to them I am certain as to the need to do whatever they could to ensure the survival of individual clans or tribes within a territory. They knew and indeed looked upon killing as a means to keeping what they viewed as theres without regard to any rules of warfare or moral hand wringing. The surival of the fittest as it were.
Do you not think it is still that way today ...even it terms of global interactions?
When attacked or threatened by another culture or sub group we will attack and defend ourselves equivalent to the need to ensure our own way of life continues. Should we fail in that arena we then are not necessarily wiped off the face of the map but we are "changed" irrevocably as the native Americans were changed. Conquer or be conquered is still the way of the world regardless of morality or religious faith or a lack therof at all.
The fact that responsible modern democracies seek only to defend their interests is worthy indeed as opposed to attacking and conquering to expand empires or gain more territory.
"Proud to be an Infidel" ... "100% pure American Jingoist"
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Re: Iran and WMD and Islam and Wahabism
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Kevin,
Once you remove all the anger and name calling, you really seem to be a pretty reasonable person, and I do in fact agree with you on several points. However, you and many other people seem to be misguided as to who exactly the 'enemy' is.
Please keep in mind that the war on terrorism and the war in Iraq are two completely different things. I agree, the flying of planes into the world trade center towers was a terrible act of agression against the US, and the ones responsible should be dealt with appropriately. We both agree on that, as I believe everyone else does. But who were the ones responsible? The US Government attributes those attacks to a small group of religious extremists whose number is estimated at around 3000 individuals. It is difficult to equate or even compare this situation to events such as World War II, the agression of Nazi Germany, or the attacks on Pearl Harbor, which were acts of entire countries and agressive occupation plans.
Now contrast that with our current war in Iraq. Iraq did not provoke the war by an act of agression. They were not a threat to the US, and despite the changing reasons given by our government, we invaded their country basically unprovoked. In essence, the people fighting back are doing nothing more than defending the country against what they see as an invading force, in any way they can. They are not terrorists and had nothing to do with the 911 attacks. True, various terrorist groups are now using our invasion of Iraq to their advantage and to recruit additional members, but that is a byproduct of our actions, not the reason for it.
Cheers,
Brad
To be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid.
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Re: Iran and WMD and Islam and Wahabism
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Hey Larry....Try runnin' for any office in THIS fair land as an Agnostic, or EVEN one o' them thare dreaded godless Atheists, and see far ya get, HUH? 
And regarding this gay crap....This here Leviticus fella y'all brought up...did that dude ever have the chance to talk to a Mr.J.Christ, back in the day???
OH...NO?! I guess we done lived waaaaay back before that Jesus dude ever stolled down that there road carryin' that there cross thingy, huh?!
Ol' Leviticus must been one them there old Jewish fellas livin' back when that OLD TESTAMENT was also tellin' us how many slaves we should all own and assorted other helpful little tidbits about how we should function as human beings, HUH?
Wow!!! I had NO IDEA you were JEWISH, dude?
Cheers,
Dwight
(but if ya DO decide to run for that office you have talked about in the past and since you claim to be a religious man[that'll get cha a few votes right there], I'd play down the Jewish part....I hear the Midwest doesn't have too many of your persuation there)
First, I didn't bring up Leviticus, your fellow lefty Greg did. But as long as we're at it. Try being a poofter in a Moslem country.
Slavery was a fact in Ancient Israel, as it was everywhere else at the time. Protestants from England and the United States and the Royal Navy were what did away it in the Western world in the nineteenth century. It still exists among Moslem countries. Why you’re bringing it up is a mystery to me.
You guys are all trying to prove that Americans, and Christian Americans in particular, are at least as bad as the Taliban. To you guys all religions are equal, none are superior. Jim Jones and David Koresh are equal to Mother Theresa and John Paul II. Voo Doo is equal to Buddha and the Jihadists have equality with the medical missionaries in Africa.
You’re right, Godless Atheists have a hard time getting elected outside of hard hare left wing circles. So what? Try being a white guy running for office in the inner city. Funny though, the only Democrat currently holding office that most church going Republicans respect is Joe Lieberman, a Jew. Why? Because he takes his religion seriously. Mitt Romney, a Mormon, has a pretty good following. A lot of conservative white Republicans think Condie Rice would make a good president.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Iran and WMD and Islam and Wahabism
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Re: Iran and WMD and Islam and Wahabism
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Monkey Butt
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The key focus on this forum is Speedmasters. (the black shiny ones are fastest and look best)...and then those funny lookin ones with the spokes.
Obviously you are laboring under a misconception, why the very name of this forum is BonnevilleAmerica.com
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Iran and WMD and Islam and Wahabism
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Fe Butt
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Brad,
Sorry buddy, but as the good Friar so elementary put it with his little gremlin performing that stunt with the brick wall, you're never going to get some americans to un-link Iraq with 911, even though the OFFICIAL U.S. post-9/11 report stated otherwise.
And speaking of that REAL threat back some 70 years or so, when a country who ACTUALLY had the BRAINS, technologically speaking, (but lacked the moral foresight) to be a threat to the world and the U.S.....he of the Charlie Chaplin mustache used to spout-off about "those Jews" being the problem in the world, and REPEATED IT so many times to his countrymen that they started believing it.
So you see, his old adage..."Tell a lie enough times and you'll get enough people to believe it"*...still unfortunately holds true to this day.
(*-translated from the original German)
So ya know WHAT?
SAVE YOUR BREATH, buddy!
Cheers,
Dwight
(I'll just be over in the corner "wringin' my little Liberal hands" and continue to be ASTONISHED[well, not really] at some of my fellow Americans gullibility and lack of historical perspective)
Last edited by Dwight; 04/27/2006 2:12 PM.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Iran and WMD and Islam and Wahabism
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Quote:
Kevin,
Once you remove all the anger and name calling, you really seem to be a pretty reasonable person, and I do in fact agree with you on several points. However, you and many other people seem to be misguided as to who exactly the 'enemy' is.
Please keep in mind that the war on terrorism and the war in Iraq are two completely different things. I agree, the flying of planes into the world trade center towers was a terrible act of agression against the US, and the ones responsible should be dealt with appropriately. We both agree on that, as I believe everyone else does. But who were the ones responsible? The US Government attributes those attacks to a small group of religious extremists whose number is estimated at around 3000 individuals. It is difficult to equate or even compare this situation to events such as World War II, the agression of Nazi Germany, or the attacks on Pearl Harbor, which were acts of entire countries and agressive occupation plans.
Now contrast that with our current war in Iraq. Iraq did not provoke the war by an act of agression. They were not a threat to the US, and despite the changing reasons given by our government, we invaded their country basically unprovoked. In essence, the people fighting back are doing nothing more than defending the country against what they see as an invading force, in any way they can. They are not terrorists and had nothing to do with the 911 attacks. True, various terrorist groups are now using our invasion of Iraq to their advantage and to recruit additional members, but that is a byproduct of our actions, not the reason for it.
Cheers,
Brad
What name callin Brad? Hmmm lets see I typically refer to persons of middle eastern descent that are hostile to my way of life in terms that are less than flattering. Hmmm. Not a problem there that I can see. Are your liberal sensibilities injured to the core? LOL. Hey, why did we call Japanese..(japs or slant eyes or yellow bastards in WW2) or Germans (krauts , heinies or what have you)....Nuttin wrong with referring to someone who wants to kill you in less than flattering terms.
I also often refer to the leadership of the Democratic party in less than flattering terms. I suppose that those who by extension identify with those weasels also feel degraded? LOL ... No sweat of my brow there either.
Now on to the meat of the matter. The Iraq war unjust? Then why for Heavens sake did all those weasels in the Democratic party all fall into lock step with the white house? Why did they all utter the same worries about WMD and the need to take out Iraq? Why did so many of them unflinchingly and to a man support the war before they opposed it ala your girl john skerry? HUH? WHY?
Now these scumbags are doing and have been doing their level best to drag the very country they swore an oath to protect thru the mud. Disgraceful morons all of those leaders. Murtha....a snake. Kerry....an enemy of the state if there ever was one. Ted Kennedy...an old drunken traitor. All of it just because they cannot stand GW Bush. There hatred of Bush clearly outweighs the best interests of the country when they signed up for the war 100% only to now propose than Bush is an evil "Hitler" who threatens the peace of the world. Sheer idiocy unrestrained and embarassing.
So...are you offended yet? LOL.
Please.....
"Proud to be an Infidel" ... "100% pure American Jingoist"
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Fe Butt
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Oh, come on Kevin. YOU know why those spineless Democrats(yep...I AGREE with ya on THAT one) voted to give the power to prosecute this stupid-a$$ Iraqi venture.
Because.....Those SPINELESS twerps(yep see...I really DO agree with ya on your assessment of those Demos) didn't want to appear "weak" to people such as yourself, who wanted to strike-back at ANYBODY after 9/11. So they just "went along to get along", and they were juuuuuust hoping against hope that come the next election, YOU and people who basically believe "Might Makes Right"("right" often turning out to be wrong, BTW) would VOTE for 'em.
I ask you...how STUPID is THAT?!
Come to think of it...maybe you're RIGHT after all, Dude!
The present occupant of the White House may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer, and maybe he's blown any chance at balancing the budget for the next 30 years, involved us in a Cost/Reward endevor in Iraq that is decidedly unbalanced on the Cost side of the ledger)...but even Mr.Bush isn't THAT stupid to believe an erroneous assumption such as THAT!
Cheers,
Dwight
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Iran and WMD and Islam and Wahabism
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So...are you offended yet? LOL. Offended? Hardly.. was just hinting that sometimes, the base message in your diatribes can be obscured by the use of verbage which adds no real information or weight to the topic at hand PS: I've been accused of the same thing at times, usually after doing shots of tequila Cheers, Brad
To be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid.
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SAVE YOUR BREATH, buddy!Yeah, yeah.. I know  Hey, see if you can figure out who said this: Quote:
Naturally, the common people don't want war ... but after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.
Cheers,
Brad
To be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid.
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Fe Butt
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Brad, I'm guessin'....Josef Goebbels. Well...it was either him or the dearly departed funnyman, "Lonesome" George Gobel.  Cheers, Dwight (funny....I always got those two mixed-up for some reason)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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As a matter of simple linguistics, anything promoted from either end of the political spectrum can neither be balanced nor fair in its treatment of complex issues. This applies whether the issue under consideration is political, religious, or for that matter anything upon which an extreme position can be articulated. Right wing screwheads are as blind or consciously in denial of the value of left wing policies and ideology as any left wing screwhead is of the value of right wing policy and idealogy.
Only from the center can one clearly evaluate the value of any proposal if what one is interested in is a balanced view of the options. That has nothing to do of course with whether the ideas or principles of the extreme right or left WORK or not. I address the notion to those who wish to arrive at wisdom through the consideration of options. To those interested only in parrotting or supporting one side or the other of an issue, I, of course, am merely one hand clapping.
Tad
Patriotism: Supporting your country all the time and your government when it deserves it. M. Twain
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Re: Iran and WMD and Islam
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Joined: May 2005
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Quote:
Brad,
I'm guessin'....Josef Goebbels.
Well...it was either him or the dearly departed funnyman, "Lonesome" George Gobel.
Cheers,
Dwight
(funny....I always got those two mixed-up for some reason)
If not Goebbels, what about Goering????? At least it sounds close to what he said.
Mike
'05 America
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Re: Iran and WMD and Islam
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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WAIT A MINUTE, Brad! Can I change my answer?! How's about....Karl Rove! Did HE say THAT, HUH?!  BTW...that reminds me!!! What kind of a "good american" spells Carl with a freakin' "K", ANYWAY??? Cheers, Dwight (THAT should'a been our FIRST friggin' TIPOFF from the START about THAT GUY!)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Iran and WMD and Islam
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Naw, Mike!
Goering was too busy EATIN' his way through Europe back then to say somethin' like THAT!!!
IN FACT, that S.O.B. got SO BIG that even the GERMAN aeronautical engineers couldn't design a plane big enough OR with enough power to lift HIS fat a$$ off the freakin' ground!!!!
Ya ever wonder why they had Werner Von Braun start development on the V-2 rocket???
Well...THERE YA GO!!!
Cheers,
Dwight
(when Werner was in school as a child in Duesseldorf one day, the teacher scolded him by asking him..."Werner! Do you know you missed school THREE TIMES last week?"......to which the young master Von Braun replied..."I KNOW teacher! But ONLY by a FEW HUNDRED YARDS!!!")
Last edited by Dwight; 04/27/2006 4:12 PM.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Iran and WMD and Islam and Wahabism
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I know I said I was checking out, but I just can't seem to get away from it quite yet. I was not suggesting the the US was inclined or arguing for genocide. I was admittedly unclear. What I meant was some of the people posting to this section and topic HERE seem to be "dancing" close to such an attitude. It seems clear enough to me that there are more than one here who wouldn't have a problem with it.
I've read post after post of philosphical wrangling about just about every possible aspect of this topic with one glaring exception. Apart from some sort of massive retaliatory response, no one seems to have the slightest idea of how to resolve the problem nor do they seem to care about formulating one. Outside of Bayern, Bedouin and a few other voices crying in the wilderness, all I'm reading is window-dressed language of hate, intolerance and prejudice. Broad sweeping generalizations combined with fascist justification for violence.
I have taught European history at both the high school and college level for almost two decades. The degrees I hold and the scholarships I've been awarded for advanced study in totalitarianism provide the vocabulary and insight to the issues which are resonating here. What I am reading here, simply by substituing "jew" for Muslim and "Germany" for the U.S. and "Nazism" for democracy and there is no discernable difference between the propaganda and violence of Hitler's or Stalin's parrotting, fear-ridden and sychophantic worshippers and the rantings of hatred that are being overtly or covertly promoted as inviolable truth here.
Suffice it to say that those engaging in it will not agree or even see it that way. I wouldn't expect it. It's sophistic objectivity; they've already arrived at their conclusions. All they're doing is mucking about in the cesspool rearranging the filth.
Tad
Patriotism: Supporting your country all the time and your government when it deserves it. M. Twain
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Re: Iran and WMD and Islam and Wahabism
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John,
Well, we wanted them out of our way and we were going to do it no matter what it took. The fact that disease and inter-tribal fighting, much of it at our instigation, helped as we tried to achieve our goal of clearing them out of the way does not mean that the attempted extermination is no longer genocide.
In 1492 when Columbus got to the New World there were an estimated 20 million native americans in N. America. By 1888 when we "closed" our frontier, there were 280,000 left. In what is now Mexico, there were another 20 million reduced to 1.5 million by the same date. I lack stats for S. America but if we assume another 20 million and use the 1.5 million left in Mexico as our common remaineder, that means Western Culture reduced the native population of the hemisphere from approximately 60 million to 4.5 million. Hitler considered Andrew Jackson one of his heroes for removing the Cherokee and saw no differnce between our native americans and "his" jews. With good reason, he was simply trying to do what we did.
After all, examine the history books and see if you can come up with ANY difference between the American notion of Manifest Destiny or the articulations of the Monroe Doctrine or Teddy Roosevelt's "Corrolary" and Hitler's Liebensraum. I have never been able to do so. And the language and intent behind his corrolary and what is known as the Brezhnev doctrine are also, essentially indistinguishable one from another.
Tad
Patriotism: Supporting your country all the time and your government when it deserves it. M. Twain
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Re: Iran and WMD and Islam and Wahabism
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Quote:
"Moral Equivalence" ie "we did it too" is an argument for appeasement today when threatened?
I never said that...read carefully.
Tad
Patriotism: Supporting your country all the time and your government when it deserves it. M. Twain
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Re: Iran and WMD and Islam and Wahabism
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Yeah...like HE said.... And again, READ CAREFULLY Tad Quote:
Kevin,
Once you remove all the anger and name calling, you really seem to be a pretty reasonable person, and I do in fact agree with you on several points. However, you and many other people seem to be misguided as to who exactly the 'enemy' is.
Please keep in mind that the war on terrorism and the war in Iraq are two completely different things. I agree, the flying of planes into the world trade center towers was a terrible act of agression against the US, and the ones responsible should be dealt with appropriately. We both agree on that, as I believe everyone else does. But who were the ones responsible? The US Government attributes those attacks to a small group of religious extremists whose number is estimated at around 3000 individuals. It is difficult to equate or even compare this situation to events such as World War II, the agression of Nazi Germany, or the attacks on Pearl Harbor, which were acts of entire countries and agressive occupation plans.
Now contrast that with our current war in Iraq. Iraq did not provoke the war by an act of agression. They were not a threat to the US, and despite the changing reasons given by our government, we invaded their country basically unprovoked. In essence, the people fighting back are doing nothing more than defending the country against what they see as an invading force, in any way they can. They are not terrorists and had nothing to do with the 911 attacks. True, various terrorist groups are now using our invasion of Iraq to their advantage and to recruit additional members, but that is a byproduct of our actions, not the reason for it.
Cheers,
Brad
Patriotism: Supporting your country all the time and your government when it deserves it. M. Twain
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Re: Iran and WMD and Islam and Wahabism
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
I didn't bring up Leviticus, your fellow lefty Greg did.
Well, actually, no, RobBA05 brought it up in the "godhatesfags" website link, I just picked it up. Glad to see your propensity for labeling is just as sharp as ever.
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Re: Iran and WMD and Islam and Wahabism
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I don't believe any of the "lefties" here has stated that the United States deserves to be the victim of genocide, or to just hand over victory like sheep to the terrorist, this is the same old VERY TIRED right wing accusation of anyone who does not agree with the war in Iraq. Somehow, even though many of us, me included have STRONGLY and VOCALLY supported our actions in Afghanistan (where the real war on terrorism began and should have stayed) 100%, this is repeatedly overlooked. If I were an appeaser, or pacifist, then I would not support miliatry action ANYWHERE or for ANY REASON, but, ha, what do ya know, I support us going into Afghanistan, and I wonder daily why we diverted sources AWAY from that theater, so that Bin Laden can continue issuing news clips at will, continue making threats, and the Taliban can regain footholds in the far outer provinces of that country since we are spread thin there in order to ensure we have enough troops in Iraq. Why do we not have Osama bin Laden, THE leader of the 9/11 attack, in custody and on trial, or already executed? I have yet to hear ANY satisfactory answer on that from ANY one, only excuses, and counter charges to distract us from that question.
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Re: Iran and WMD and Islam and Wahabism
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Loquacious
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and I say that while it might have been just shy of out and out genocide, it was VERY close to crossing that line. While the Native Americans did wipe out other tribes from time to time, as did Europeans, and Asians, they also had large trading nations, raided other neighboring tribes not only for slaves, but also for breeding purposes to keep the invading tribe from becoming too inbred, and on and on, much like "modern" civilizations of the time. However, settlers from Europe came, saw these "savages" (they must be savages since they were not Christian), and saw the land that they had, and coveted that land. Therefore, many, a vast majority of early settlers (and their governments) saw it as being perfectly moral to steal the land through false treaties, and to kill the Indian, because they were "subhuman" and non-Christians, therefore not truly civilized peoples whose lives were valued, just as the Nazis viewed Jews. Was the genocide as well organized, or on as large a scale as the Holocaust, certainly not, but it was an attempt, at least under the surface of polite civility, to eradicate the colonies (and the west) of a subhuman race, who were given two choices, convert and submit, or die. It doesn't take much more to cross the line to the definition of genocide from there.
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Re: Iran and WMD and Islam and Wahabism
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Loquacious
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Quote:
... Why do we not have Osama bin Laden, THE leader of the 9/11 attack, in custody and on trial, or already executed? I have yet to hear ANY satisfactory answer on that from ANY one, only excuses, and counter charges to distract us from that question.
Bayern,
Because he (Bin Laden) and WMD where the EXCUSE for subsequent events, not the OBJECTIVE.
Like I said in my sole and somewhat lengthy previous post, it's all about INTERESTS.
Condoleezza Rice was in Athens two days ago and met with our government officials in order to win support in the UN Security council regarding the Iran issue.
I watched her press conference and it more or less boiled down to this:
a/ Iran's threats and that the US Government left all options on the table.
b/ That Iran and Russia control natural gas etc.
c/ That if Iran cuts it's supplies off that Russia will be left as a monopoly.
d/ That we need to advance policies in the region (Middle East) that will increase stability and install democracy.
Now why do these statements resemble the CHEVRON advert I quoted in my initial post?
Man, I'm going to stick to reading adverts henceforth, they tell it like it is before even the Secretary of State does.
What's next?
You'll see the US and Russia form a strategic alliance (thus dumping Iran) even though Nicholas Burns has failed to date.
Watch this space.
Bedouin.
Blessed are those eyes that have seen more roads than any man! (Homer).
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Re: Iran and WMD and Islam and Wahabism
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Joined: Jul 2005
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3/4 Throttle
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You know, this forum has got to be one of the most interesting places in the world...this particular thread is simply, incredibly fascinating! I find elements of truth in so many of the statements being made...forgive me for having nothing new to add, but it is absolutely thought-provoking, and isn't that what intelligent discourse is all about? How else do we examine our biases and possible misinformation except by sharing with others, and considering other points of view? This is great stuff...
'02 Blk/Slvr BA, Jireh fishtails, Freak, no AI, 160/42, 18T
She is the Beauty, I am the Beast.
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Re: Iran and WMD and Islam and Wahabism
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Why...Thank YOU Tad for mentioning my pointed little sarcastic "jokes" offered up with the intent to get some people to see, as Bedouin basically stated, that the flag-waving and religion bating that most politicians THROUGHOUT the world use as a tool to get people to march to war, IS and WILL BE with us FOREVER, because...these "simple ideas" are EASY TO UNDERSTAND by the hoi polloi, AND that these fear tactics DRIVE the World's economy. Cheers, Dwight (actually, you DIDN'T mention my name or my posts, but I guess even those who may basically agree with my take on certain issues sometimes fail to see the "humor" in how screwed up the human race is...but I guess the "Theatre Of The Absurd" usually plays to a somewhat empty audience anyway)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Iran and WMD and Islam and Wahabism
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Quote:
You know, this forum has got to be one of the most interesting places in the world...this particular thread is simply, incredibly fascinating! I find elements of truth in so many of the statements being made...forgive me for having nothing new to add, but it is absolutely thought-provoking, and isn't that what intelligent discourse is all about? How else do we examine our biases and possible misinformation except by sharing with others, and considering other points of view? This is great stuff...
HEY! Watch it, DAVE! 
Sarcasm is MY job around here, BUDDY!!!!
Cheers,
Dwight
(I don't recall puttin' up a Going Out Of "Bidness" sign, Dude!!!)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Iran and WMD and Islam and Wahabism
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Joined: May 2005
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Quote:
Therefore, many, a vast majority of early settlers (and their governments) saw it as being perfectly moral to steal the land through false treaties, and to kill the Indian, because they were "subhuman" and non-Christians,
Greg:
I know it was not your intent, but I would be remiss if I didn't attempt to modify this statement a wee bit.
Some have pointed out in this thread, a number of times, that it is an error to clothe the entire Muslim world with the acts of a few terrorists. Similarly, it is a mistake for non-Americans to assume that we are all conservative simply because our current leadership is maintained by a conservative majority. To do so is to ingore the complexities of us humans and to generalize to the extreme.
Likewise, I would argue that the above quote seems to imply that the killing of Indians was initiated and performed by Christians. Even in that day, being European, white, and from a "Christian" nation did not make the settlers Christian, just as today merely attending a church does not do the same. Were there a number of Christians who performed wrong? Yes, I'm sure. I am equally sure that many deeds, good and bad, performed in the name of Christianity are not performed by Christians.
Oh Dwight, I think I will stick with Goering . Of course, I had to get home to look it up first  .
Mike
'05 America
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Re: Iran and WMD and Islam and Wahabism
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825
"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825 |
Quote:
After all, examine the history books and see if you can come up with ANY difference between the American notion of Manifest Destiny or the articulations of the Monroe Doctrine or Teddy Roosevelt's "Corrolary" and Hitler's Liebensraum. I have never been able to do so. And the language and intent behind his corrolary and what is known as the Brezhnev doctrine are also, essentially indistinguishable one from another.
Um, how about 'no'? Sounds like too much work. Instead I'll offer up more unfounded opinion.
While it's true that european settlers "wanted them out of the way," I doubt you can prove that the systematic extermination of the native peoples (who I would prefer to call "pre-caucasian settlers" but that's even more cumbersome than "native americans") of this continent was an official policy of our fledgling government. It may have seemed like it was, but if they really wanted to, they could have. It was just another war against a civilization that was technologically inferior. They were conquered, brutally and maliciously, but not exterminated.
I wonder if anyone here, much more learned than I, can give us an example in human history of true genocide, where an entire segment of human population, whether based on "race" or nationality, was truly and completely exterminated?
I have this whole other diatribe (pardon the expression) on the state of modern tribal existance that I'm just not going to get into right now because I lack the energy and I have too much work to do. Oh, and this thread was about muslims and such.
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