 Re: New bike time
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Well, OF COURSE the T-Bird's engine is very wide, Ron. (...THAT'S what happens when you design a Parallel-Twin with water-jackets surrounding it instead of my beloved COOLING FINS!!!) 
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: New bike time
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Joined: Apr 2006
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Yes, it was the logical way to do it. Then BMW and Triumph messed it all up.  I will tell you when I sit on the Thunderbird then sit on my Kingpin the Tbrd seems really fat. Its that big motor side by side with the tank covering it. But they have been able to get some HP out of it.
I refer to that as the Ethel Merman tank.
Based on the dyno sheets I've seen, the stock liquid cooled TBird and stock oil cooled Victory 106 have nearly identical TQ & HP numbers. 
Kevin - Luceo Non Uro
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Re: New bike time
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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I think your new bike looks great and hope you are as happy with it as the triumph.By all means stop by and let us know what you think.Ride safe.
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Re: New bike time
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Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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Who cares. Just ride, and do it safely.
In Between the Dark and the Light..
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Re: New bike time
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Ahh, the two copy cat V-twins. So starting with a clean sheet why did Victory build their entire line on V-twin engines when they could have used parallel twins a design which everyone here knows is superior to the V for air cooled engines? And Indian...it would have been more uniquely Indian to build in-line 4-cylinder engines for their new bikes like their classic 402.
But no, both of the Polaris brands played "follow the leader" just another Harley V-twin copy like the Japanese cruisers. Something I appreciated about Triumph was the company staying true to their heritage with parallel twin and triple engines.
Ah, one of the Keyboard Captains of Industry is back!
Victory and Indian use v-twins because that is what heavyweight cruiser riders like. Very simple.
For Indian to have made a new Inline 4 in 2014 could have been suicide. See above. Springfield Indian made w-a-y more v-twin machines than I4s.
That being said, there are LOTs of people hoping that Indian makes a modern I4 engine someday, likely to go in a heavyweight touring machine.
To be clear, The Leader is Indian, which made a v-twin before Harley. Just sayin'... 
So, the question your really have to ask yourself is not why do other brands make v-twins? 
It's why do other brands make them so much better than Harley?  
"The leader is Indian" in YOUR mind, certainly not on any sales chart. Look, Polaris bought the right to use the Indian name, big deal. It has NO relationship with the original company any more than if Polaris had bought the right to the Studebaker name and decided to build a few cars styled like a 1958 automobile. Indian does not even have ONE dealership in every state!
"Victory and Indian use v-twins because that is what heavyweight cruiser riders like. Very simple."
No ******. Just so happens that's all that Harley Davidson builds. You know, that's the motorcycle company that OWNS 50% of the American market. That makes H-D the leader that companies like Indian and Victory follow.
Last edited by outerbanks; 07/28/2014 10:14 PM.
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: New bike time
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Thanks for the good wishes everyone, I might stop by here and stir the pot occasionally. Ride safe.
I am somewhat disappointed regarding the negative shots thrown concerning your new bike. But I suppose it was meant in good fun (I hope so) and you handled it better than I might have. Meanwhile, enjoy your new ride and please do stop by from time to time. I especially want to hear from you regarding your experience and overall impression on that new ride of yours.
Well Keith my new Harley is 2 weeks old now and I have racked up 2,140 miles. My wife (she rode her Sportster) and I just got back from a little run to West Virginia for Mountain Fest. On the run out we ran through hours of pouring rain and some dense fog in the mountains but the days in WV were mostly sunny. Both bikes performed flawlessly. Highway mileage on my 6-speed Wide Glide was high 40's with a best recorded 51mpg average. Really don't shift to 6th gear until at least 60mph or it feels like the engine is lugging. The bike has quality fit, finish and materials like the polished stainless steel handlebars with internal wiring. Steel fenders and metal turn signal housings not plastic even the thickness and stitching of the seat material. The security system is automatic arming and functions like a smart key on a car, but if the fob is lost you can override by entering a PIN. I'm glad to get away from chain drive to clean maintenance free belt drive like the Triumph Thunderbird uses. Though I love the style of the Wide Glide I was concerned by the narrow 21in front tire. Harley has done an excellent job figuring out the geometry because the bike handles very well and ABS is standard. Performance is on par with a Triumph Thunderbird with low/mid 13-second quarter mile times and that's plenty for a forward control cruiser.
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: New bike time
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Adjunct
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Congrats on the new bike, hope you enjoy it immensely!
John 3:16
let's ride...
1969 Triumph Trophy 500
2004 America
2010 America
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Re: New bike time
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Joined: Nov 2011
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If you love it and ride it, that's all that matters! Congrats and good luck! Great thread, too. Am considering a Victory cross country myself --- but not until I can afford it AND keep my America!  Ernie
2009 America
Flames w/black
Long TORs, Tach
Airbox removed, + +
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Re: New bike time
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If you love it and ride it, that's all that matters! Congrats and good luck! Great thread, too. Am considering a Victory cross country myself --- but not until I can afford it AND keep my America!
Ernie
I nearly bought a Victory Vegas a couple of years ago but got the Triumph instead. Very nice bike but the local Victory dealer was an idiot. Also thought about keeping my Triumph but I know I'd only really ride one bike and the other would mostly sit so someone is going to get a damn nice used Triumph, the Harley dealer has it for sale for $6,995.
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: New bike time
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Nice bike, enjoy your new ride. I have a 1200 sportster S model with dual plug heads. It has a bit more hp and cosiderably more torque than my speedy. My harley is a 2001 and triumph 2003. However I like the way the triumph handles by far. Having said that, both bikes have been very reliable and I'v enjoyed both. I was wondering if you bought you triumph from D & D in norfolk,va?
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Re: New bike time
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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"Victory and Indian use v-twins because that is what heavyweight cruiser riders like. Very simple."
No ******. Just so happens that's all that Harley Davidson builds. You know, that's the motorcycle company that OWNS 50% of the American market. That makes H-D the leader that companies like Indian and Victory follow.
o.b., enjoy the ride and ride what you enjoy. Two wheels and engine = good times.
Try not to drink too deeply from the HD marketing fountain though 
There are numerous reasons to use V-twins for big displacement bikes, narrowness,
longer stroke with gobs of torque, tighter center of gravity to name a few.
"Copying HD" is not why they do it. That's just salesman crap.
They're not following HD, they're competing, and that's something HD is not used to. American made, classic name, true to older Indian v-twins appearance wise, high quality.
Frankly I think HD is afraid of the competition.
The real winners will be us, the riders 
It'll be interesting to watch that whole "market share" thing over the next few years too.
Don't misunderstand, I like Harleys. They look cool, sound cool, fit and finish is second to none. In fact before I bought the Triumph I nearly dropped the hammer on a Dyna Sport.
So again, enjoy 
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: New bike time
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Polaris is engineering their own bikes, designing/engineering their own engines(unlike HD, who seems to turn to Porsche for engineering design..think Vrod and the new 500/750s),actually, the complete bikes. Simply put, I enjoy the competition that Polaris is creating with the acquisition and development of Indian, it make others step up or risk falling behind. The new Scout, as with the original, is innovative and is designed to set new standards, as the original Scout did back in the day(when the Indian Wrecking Crew set the standard in racing for decades).
Enjoy your bike(s), ride safe.
Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and will never be.----Thomas Jefferson
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Re: New bike time
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Joined: Nov 2011
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Adjunct
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Nice bike, enjoy your new ride. I have a 1200 sportster S model with dual plug heads. It has a bit more hp and cosiderably more torque than my speedy. My harley is a 2001 and triumph 2003. However I like the way the triumph handles by far. Having said that, both bikes have been very reliable and I'v enjoyed both. I was wondering if you bought you triumph from D & D in norfolk,va?
No, I bought my Triumph from Ray Price Triumph in Raleigh North Carolina. I had a Honda 750 I'd been riding for years and decided to make a move so It came down to the Victory or Triumph. I went to AllOut Cycles in Chesapeake Va. the Victory dealer one Saturday morning and said "work me a deal on this Vegas and I'll buy it today." Now a buyer saying that right off the bat should have given any salesman wood! He said "the guy that does trade appraisals will be back Thursday...come back then. I said "are you serious?" Mind you, my wife and I were the only non-employees in the dealership on a nice Saturday morning. The more I talked to the guy the more wrong things he said.
So I whipped out my phone and searched for the nearest Triumph dealer that had an America in stock, that was Ray Price. I told my wife "hey, you want to take a ride?" So I rode 3 hours to Raleigh NC to buy my Triumph that day. Ray Price is a Harley-Davidson AND Triumph dealership. Both are sold in seperate sides of the same building and the Triumph showroom is beautiful second to none! They do not treat Triumph like a second class franchise. Ray Price senior is a retired Harley drag race champion and the upper level of the showroom displays his bikes and race trophies and pictures. His grandson road races Triumph IIRC. Everyone there was very nice and professional. That's why I went back and special ordered my wife's new 1200 Sportster from them in 2012.
I discovered D&D Triumph in Norfolk later, at the time I bought my Triumph they did not take trades when you bought a new motorcycle being a smaller dealership so it wouldn't have worked for me. I don't waste time trying to sell my ride when I want to buy a new one, patience is not my strength. D&D has been my source for all parts and a few service items on the Triumph and they are outstanding!
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: New bike time
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"Victory and Indian use v-twins because that is what heavyweight cruiser riders like. Very simple."
No ******. Just so happens that's all that Harley Davidson builds. You know, that's the motorcycle company that OWNS 50% of the American market. That makes H-D the leader that companies like Indian and Victory follow.
o.b., enjoy the ride and ride what you enjoy. Two wheels and engine = good times.
Try not to drink too deeply from the HD marketing fountain though
There are numerous reasons to use V-twins for big displacement bikes, narrowness,
longer stroke with gobs of torque, tighter center of gravity to name a few.
"Copying HD" is not why they do it. That's just salesman crap.
They're not following HD, they're competing, and that's something HD is not used to. American made, classic name, true to older Indian v-twins appearance wise, high quality.
Frankly I think HD is afraid of the competition.
The real winners will be us, the riders
It'll be interesting to watch that whole "market share" thing over the next few years too.
Don't misunderstand, I like Harleys. They look cool, sound cool, fit and finish is second to none. In fact before I bought the Triumph I nearly dropped the hammer on a Dyna Sport.
So again, enjoy
Thanks bigbill, but I do not buy into the marketing... Polaris did though. Look, we know the 45deg V-twin is not the best arrangement for an air-cooled engine because the rear cylinder runs hotter than the front and there is no room for straight equal length intake and exhaust routing like there is on a parallel twin for example. So by design you have a 2 cylinder engine with a different volumetric efficiency for each cylinder. They have to invest considerable engineering effort working around this limitation. Modern bikes with sequential EFI are much better dealing with this than the simpler older carburetor bikes.
So why use it? There are rare exceptions of course but the 45deg V-twin looks and sounds right for a cruiser and cruisers are very popular in America. Kind of like how full size American pickup trucks are by far the best selling vehicles here but no where else in the world. Looks are very important and each rider has their own taste for example I don't like the look of a Ducati or BMW (except the BMW RnineT) but I prefer Harley and Triumph cruisers. Hey I knew a guy that had a bright lime green Kawasaki cruiser and he loved it but it just wasn't my style. Nothing wrong with that. Considered the Triumph Thunderbird very carefully and if I hadn't bought the Dyna it would have been the T-bird. Maybe next time especially if Triumph restyles the Bird just a bit.
Then there is that 45deg V-twin sound, is sound important to a rider? You bet it is, how many here still have the whisper quiet stock pipes on their Triumph? See my point? I installed Vance & Hines slip on pipes on the 103ci Harley and the sound reminds me of my old 1971 Mustang V8 when I'd take it to the track and open the headers. By today's standards a primitive low RPM pushrod engine that didn't make remarkable horsepower for it's size but it sure as hell belted out tons of torque right off idle! And that kind of vehicle can be very fun to drive.
Decades ago Harley-Davidson just settled on the 45deg air cooled V-twin engine design and stuck with it. Maybe some years just because they didn't have the money or resources to try other possibly better configurations and they just kept tweaking the design through the years, it became "the devil they knew." Remember Harley had some bad near bankruptcy years just like Triumph. Somewhere along the way the V-twin engine became synonymous with American cruiser motorcycles since that's all Harley the only surviving American motorcycle company built...after the death of the original Indian Motorcycles in 1953 of course.
Is a big V-twin Harley Dyna the fastest bike out there? Nope, isn't trying to be but it sure is fun using that easy low RPM torque to accelerate 0-60 or cruse at a relaxed 2,200 RPM at 60mph. Comparison test of the Dyna vs the T-Bird show nearly identical 0-60 and quarter mile acceleration times with the Dyna 1-tenth of a second behind the Bird at 60.
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: New bike time
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Polaris is engineering their own bikes, designing/engineering their own engines(unlike HD, who seems to turn to Porsche for engineering design..think Vrod and the new 500/750s),actually, the complete bikes. Simply put, I enjoy the competition that Polaris is creating with the acquisition and development of Indian, it make others step up or risk falling behind. The new Scout, as with the original, is innovative and is designed to set new standards, as the original Scout did back in the day(when the Indian Wrecking Crew set the standard in racing for decades).
Enjoy your bike(s), ride safe.
I have been to Harley's Kansas City Missouri plant and seen V-Rod engines being assembled by Americans...have you?
Harley does not hide the engineering work done with Porsche on the V-rod engine just like Triumph went to Japan and worked with Kawasaki and others when they were re-launching the new Triumph motorcycle company. If Porsche designed the complete Street 500/750cc bikes for Harley as you claim provide a credible link to prove that. Those little 500/750s are very light I sat on a 750 the last time I was at the dealership.
Polaris is a snowmobile and ATV company that diversified into motorcycles. Where do you think the money came from to buy the Indian name and then engineer and tool up (or outsource, their CEO Scott Wine actually is proud of this) the production of parts and launch production? Must be nice to have a parent company with deep pockets for resources. As motorcycle companies Victory and now Indian do not have to earn their survival on their own...they have the corporate nipple whenever they need. Don't worry quarterly reports will show massive growth for the baby bike divisions cooking the books is good marketing.
Harley-Davidson and Triumph are motorcycle companies that survive only on motorcycles, parts and accessories. Every other major manufacturer has a much larger parent company to carry them through the tough times. Triumph is even more remarkable since it is privately owned.
I do agree about competition being good, but fair competition not foreign dumping in an effort to drive a domestic manufacturer out of business. The reason Harley brought out the 6-speed transmission is because of Victory...but Harley would never admit that.
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Re: New bike time
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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Is a big V-twin Harley Dyna the fastest bike out there? Nope, isn't trying to be but it sure is fun using that easy low RPM torque to accelerate 0-60 or cruse at a relaxed 2,200 RPM at 60mph. Comparison test of the Dyna vs the T-Bird show nearly identical 0-60 and quarter mile acceleration times with the Dyna 1-tenth of a second behind the Bird at 60.
Horsepower sells bikes, torque wins races 
And that low end torque is what makes for quick 0-whatever times.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: New bike time
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Harley-Davidson and Triumph are motorcycle companies that survive only on motorcycles, parts and accessories. Every other major manufacturer has a much larger parent company to carry them through the tough times. Triumph is even more remarkable since it is privately owned.
I do agree about competition being good, but fair competition not foreign dumping in an effort to drive a domestic manufacturer out of business. The reason Harley brought out the 6-speed transmission is because of Victory...but Harley would never admit that.
Harley Davidson is a clothing and branding company. AMF was genius in that regard. I read 2 years ago that they make more money on branding than they do on motorcycles. Polaris had to start a company from scratch. I would wager to say that they now sell as many or more motorcycles than Triumph. They didn't have 100 years of several broke companies legacies to build on. Now they do, with a brand new line of bikes with a brand new motor.
It is going to be interesting for sure. The consumers win all the time when competition hits. While in Sturgis lots of bar and shield folks standing on line to ride the polaris bikes. Spirit Lake Iowa is in America. Americans build Victory and Indian just like Harley.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: New bike time
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Harley-Davidson and Triumph are motorcycle companies that survive only on motorcycles, parts and accessories. Every other major manufacturer has a much larger parent company to carry them through the tough times. Triumph is even more remarkable since it is privately owned.
I do agree about competition being good, but fair competition not foreign dumping in an effort to drive a domestic manufacturer out of business. The reason Harley brought out the 6-speed transmission is because of Victory...but Harley would never admit that.
Harley Davidson is a clothing and branding company. AMF was genius in that regard. I read 2 years ago that they make more money on branding than they do on motorcycles. Polaris had to start a company from scratch. I would wager to say that they now sell as many or more motorcycles than Triumph. They didn't have 100 years of several broke companies legacies to build on. Now they do, with a brand new line of bikes with a brand new motor.
It is going to be interesting for sure. The consumers win all the time when competition hits. While in Sturgis lots of bar and shield folks standing on line to ride the polaris bikes. Spirit Lake Iowa is in America. Americans build Victory and Indian just like Harley.
Actually it's 56.5% of the U.S. market now with only 5% of total revenue from selling Harley gear.
LINK
For the first six months of 2014 Polaris combined motorcycle sales totaled $181,995 not bad. Second Quarter Performance Summary (in thousands except per share data)
SOURCE
Harley-Davidson motorcycle sales totaled (in thousands) $2,785,953 Parts $469,707 General merchandise $140,500
SOURCE
Just the facts.
Last edited by moe; 08/13/2014 8:00 AM.
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: New bike time
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2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
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2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: New bike time
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Learned Hand
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Why would I go to the HD plant in KC ? Is that a pilgrimage? Did you walk around the plant like the masses around the Kaaba?
I referred to engines, not the complete bikes with the VRod, and the new 500/750 line.
Why is there an issue where the cash to develop came from? Polaris is immensely profitable and is building new lines from the ground up, and growing quite well. As for intelligent business operations, diversification is an extremely smart business model, and Polaris is building upon that wonderfully(thats why they have the cash to do what they do). Funny thing is that with Indian, they have the name that has legend and cache that easily is equal of HD, and in a sense, even greater. It makes for great competition, and Indian is generating momentum.
Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and will never be.----Thomas Jefferson
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Re: New bike time
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Why would I go to the HD plant in KC ? Is that a pilgrimage? Did you walk around the plant like the masses around the Kaaba?
I referred to engines, not the complete bikes with the VRod, and the new 500/750 line.
Why is there an issue where the cash to develop came from? Polaris is immensely profitable and is building new lines from the ground up, and growing quite well. As for intelligent business operations, diversification is an extremely smart business model, and Polaris is building upon that wonderfully(thats why they have the cash to do what they do). Funny thing is that with Indian, they have the name that has legend and cache that easily is equal of HD, and in a sense, even greater. It makes for great competition, and Indian is generating momentum.
Harley offers tours of all 3 production facilities and of course their museum in Milwaukee, even Polaris offers tours of their final assembly plant in Spirit lake IA. Many motorcycle enthusiasts find these plant tours very interesting that's why both companies offer them. We went to the museum on the way to Sturgis SD and the Kansas City Plant on the way home.
And no, you said the complete bike in your post since you forgot what you said... Quote:
Polaris is engineering their own bikes, designing/engineering their own engines(unlike HD, who seems to turn to Porsche for engineering design... think Vrod and the new 500/750s),actually, the complete bikes.
Oh and thanks for the laugh:
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Funny thing is that with Indian, they have the name that has legend and cache that easily is equal of HD, and in a sense, even greater.
Indian died in 1953. In the 60 years since the brand name was whored out to various companies and each failed hence the term "Zombie Indian." The difference this time is Polaris can afford to pour money into the brand at a loss for a few years just like John Bloor had to when he brought back Triumph. So the New Indian for the first time has a chance to survive...the question is what's to become of Victory? Will it be folded into Indian eventually since resources like the new Scout engine seem to be being diverted.
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: New bike time
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Bar Shake
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So the New Indian for the first time has a chance to survive...the question is what's to become of Victory? Will it be folded into Indian eventually since resources like the new Scout engine seem to be being diverted.
Now that's an interesting question. Polaris seems to be competing with themselves.
Perhaps they intend to market to different groups, with Victory being more forward, think Vision, and Indian going for the retro vibe.
I think they would be wise to expand the product line to other styles of bikes.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: New bike time
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So the New Indian for the first time has a chance to survive...the question is what's to become of Victory? Will it be folded into Indian eventually since resources like the new Scout engine seem to be being diverted.
Now that's an interesting question. Polaris seems to be competing with themselves.
Perhaps they intend to market to different groups, with Victory being more forward, think Vision, and Indian going for the retro vibe.
I think they would be wise to expand the product line to other styles of bikes.
I can't think of any other motorcycle manufacturer marketing 2 separate brands with separate dealer networks. It's a waste. They're in an unusual position, they have the existing established Victory brand and much larger dealer network albeit almost all are selling competing brands in the same showroom and they have the New Indian brand with too few dealers. Selling a wide range of different types of motorcycles all under the Indian brand name should be no problem look at Honda (and the other Japanese brands) for example you can buy anything from a 125cc dirt bike to a Gold Wing at the same dealership and they are all Hondas. Here locally we have 2 stand alone Honda dealers that sell no other brand and that's what Indian needs. The New Indian is only 1 year old so far but once the brand gets established Polaris should consolidate the two brands under the Indian name maybe Victory as a model line (Indian Victory like Honda Goldwing for example). The biggest obstacle is the dealer network. They need a large number of high end quality dealers selling the New Indian/Victory motorcycles only or paired with one other brand like BMW for example, something that will compliment not compete directly with Indian. They need one large dealership network and brand name not two small ones. Think what happened in the last 10 years in the auto market Ford dropped Mercury brand and folded most Lincoln franchises into well established Ford dealers. GM dropped unnecessary duplicate brands and dealers Pontiac, Oldsmobile, Saturn and Hummer. Chrysler dropped the Plymouth brand and renamed their truck division to Ram so it could be (by option) sold by Chrysler, Jeep or Dodge dealers and not just Dodge dealers.
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: New bike time
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Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,586 Likes: 1 |
It is a nice looking bike ya got there,enjoy your travels.
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Re: New bike time
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 105
Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 105 |
That bike looks good in black. Enjoy!
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Re: New bike time
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,623 Likes: 2
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,623 Likes: 2 |
Kevin - Luceo Non Uro
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Re: New bike time
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,685 Likes: 20
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,685 Likes: 20 |
Quote:
Quote:
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Harley-Davidson and Triumph are motorcycle companies that survive only on motorcycles, parts and accessories. Every other major manufacturer has a much larger parent company to carry them through the tough times. Triumph is even more remarkable since it is privately owned.
I do agree about competition being good, but fair competition not foreign dumping in an effort to drive a domestic manufacturer out of business. The reason Harley brought out the 6-speed transmission is because of Victory...but Harley would never admit that.
Harley Davidson is a clothing and branding company. AMF was genius in that regard. I read 2 years ago that they make more money on branding than they do on motorcycles. Polaris had to start a company from scratch. I would wager to say that they now sell as many or more motorcycles than Triumph. They didn't have 100 years of several broke companies legacies to build on. Now they do, with a brand new line of bikes with a brand new motor.
It is going to be interesting for sure. The consumers win all the time when competition hits. While in Sturgis lots of bar and shield folks standing on line to ride the polaris bikes. Spirit Lake Iowa is in America. Americans build Victory and Indian just like Harley.
Actually it's 56.5% of the U.S. market now with only 5% of total revenue from selling Harley gear.
LINK
For the first six months of 2014 Polaris combined motorcycle sales totaled $181,995 not bad. Second Quarter Performance Summary (in thousands except per share data)
SOURCE
Harley-Davidson motorcycle sales totaled (in thousands) $2,785,953 Parts $469,707 General merchandise $140,500
SOURCE
Just the facts.
HD does not own clothing or leather factories. They get royalty from the logo that is produced and sold by 3rd parties certified as Official HD. Last year you are correct that they made 400 million. You have to bare in mind they didn't pay for those shirts, jeans, helmets etc. The merchants did. 400 million cost them next to nothing.
Now I said the AMF marketing was genius. I promise I was not starting an argument. I think we have to say that the majority of logo items get sold, especially as they have no real shelf life. They can sit for a long time. I think we can say HD does not own the dealers or the mail order folks either. That is big profit. So HD made net money less than 800 million in 2013. Look at the math again.
Total numbers
They do better with the logo than the bikes. Now that is not a bad thing. John Bloor or Scott Wine would kill to have their logos sell like that. As an example people still bought Indian Motorcycle logo wear and Indian had been dead for 50 years.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: New bike time
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,464 Likes: 1
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,464 Likes: 1 |
Quote:
Now that's an interesting question. Polaris seems to be competing with themselves.
Perhaps they intend to market to different groups, with Victory being more forward, think Vision, and Indian going for the retro vibe.
From what I remember, that was the plan. Think Yamaha/Star - even though they share a dealer network.
Victory and their dealers (which are usually multi-line already) were to be freed up to go more extreme under the Polaris banner. Can-Am & Slingshot to start. If all goes to plan, in a few years, Indian should be poised to compete directly w/ H-D as a stand alone company with dedicated dealers.
The parent company will then get two bites of the apple.
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 Re: New bike time
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,685 Likes: 20
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,685 Likes: 20 |
Victory just eliminated more models and is focusing on a few cruisers and two baggers with one CVO type bagger called a Magnum. It appears that Indian doesn't have to try to sell motorcycles. They just put them out there and people buy them. I was thinking this is just an old Indian knock off but looks like they have made some fabulous bikes and will sell a ton of them. Well, more than a ton, that would be only 3 bikes.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: New bike time
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,623 Likes: 2
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,623 Likes: 2 |
I've heard some startling numbers on pre-orders of the Scout. It may surpass the Chief/Chieftain line in sales in the first year.  We shall see... As far as Victory, the haters would love to see them go away. They ain't going anywhere.
Kevin - Luceo Non Uro
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Re: New bike time
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,212
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,212 |
i think its great that another decent ike is hitting the market, keep HD honest and on their toes. I am not a hater of any bike, but i would not tire if i seen less HD on the road. Man....even grandma's have em! LOL
2007 Speedmaster and miss it!
2013 T-Bird Storm and Luvin it!
Catching a yellow jacket in your shirt at 70 mph can double your vocabulary
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Re: New bike time
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Gotta say I think that new Bobber model of Victory's is one nice lookin' machine.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: New bike time
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,685 Likes: 20
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,685 Likes: 20 |
110 lbs of torque and about 90 HP out of the box ain't bad. And it has fins!  And they have an answer to the Street Glide too. The Magnum is simply incredible and cost less for a comparable HD. 
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: New bike time
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 688
Adjunct
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OP
Adjunct
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 688 |
Quote:
Victory just eliminated more models and is focusing on a few cruisers and two baggers with one CVO type bagger called a Magnum.
Yes, step one would be to thin out Victory. This year Victory lost 6 models from their line: 2 baggers, 1 touring and 3 cruisers. That leaves 9 models for Victory 2015 vs the 15 they had in the 2014 model year.
By comparison Harley-Davidson has 32 models plus the 4 CVOs built on 7 separate chassis.
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: New bike time
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 688
Adjunct
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OP
Adjunct
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 688 |
Quote:
Ah, the Keyboard Captains of Industry are it again.
Ahhh the keyboard captain of big-head emoticons is at it again.
Very thoughtful input there Speedmaster05
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: New bike time
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 688
Adjunct
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OP
Adjunct
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 688 |
And now back on topic my new Harley-Davidson (NOT a Zombie Indian or Snowmobile Victory)  
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: New bike time
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 688
Adjunct
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OP
Adjunct
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 688 |
Quote:
It is a nice looking bike ya got there,enjoy your travels.
Thanks!
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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