Bonneville America Forums Forums Off Topic Discussion Forums Lounge Handguns and TBAs

Well if you could somehow ensure that those handguns were out of the criminals hands, then I could see your point. But handgun control in this country just leads to the criminals having the guns and the citizens having none.

Take a look at Washington DC for how much good handgun control works. They have some of the toughest laws in this country against handguns, but one of the highest murder rates.

So what's the solution?

If you don't think handguns have any use as personal protection, you probably won't like the lady who was at the cafeteria shooting in Killeen, Texas where something like 24 people were killed by a man who slowly and methodically strolled through the restaurant and just blew away one person after another. If just one customer had been carrying a gun, maybe there wouldn't have been as many people killed. Dr. Suzanne Gratia is now a spokesperson for concealed carry. Her father, who she was dining with, died that day. Try telling her about how we shouldn't allow law-abiding citizens to carry a firearm.

I've seen quite a few people in Arizona open carry out in the rural areas. I've ridden with a couple of guys that like to carry on their bikes when we ride up in the mountains. It doesn't bother me at all. It's not something I choose to do, but it doesn't make me nervous being around somebody who does.

I wish it were that simple Dwight. Some people cannot afford to move, cannot afford to lose the current job..... Living here, I have seen conditions slowly deteriorate around me (not particularly in my neighborhood). Some of my neighbors are on fixed incomes, there's one who is on disability. None of these can afford to move away. What can they do?

Right after Wilma last year, I was VERY glad I was armed. Within 2 days of the storm passing, some very unsavory characters from out of state slowly cruised our neighborhood. Those of us that were armed made a point to stand in our front yards as they passed showing them that we were. At night, I had a pistol and shotgun with at all times...

Dwight-
I work for a security consulting firm. We perform security audits at banking locations that have had "incidents" at their ATMs and after hours depositories. I can assure you that the individuals killed in upper class neighborhoods were just as dead as those shot in lower income areas. Something to remember- the criminals know who has the money. Why jack somebody at an ATM in a low income neighborhood when they can drive 10 minutes and make some real money. You can live where ever you want; the criminals are always happy to come to you.

"I'm always extremely aware of my surroundings."

You're right. The best way to survive a confrontation in to avoid it all together.

School Shootings

Quote:

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First of all you don't hear of massive shoot outs now do you? There are millions of gun owners in this country and many carry, but we haven't turned into the old west

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Let us not forget this one and im sure the right to bare arms was great for these people Mcdonalds 1984 I strongly doubt that this was what the founding fathers had in mind

Fine. Have at it. I'll pick up the pieces later...

I have avoided posting on this for a bit but just simply can't stay out of the fray.

I am a semi-authority on this from being required to carry a weapon 24/7 for a few decades. Opinions vary. I defend everybodies right to keep and bear arms in the U.S.

I have also asked, mostly at very formal funerals with lots of marked cars, if the cops have guns and are well trained why do so many get killed? I know the answer.

A few points of interest:

Publications of gun defense seem to forget to publish accidental shootings. Citizen gun defense success stories are such a small percentage of gun death it seems almost inconsequential when weighed against accidental shootings.

Having a gun can tend to make a reasonable person brave about 30 seconds longer than is advisable. Without the gun he or she would have retreated before the very bad violence started.

Always remember this: Only the bad guy knows when the violence is going to begin. A bad guy with a gun in his hand always wins vs. a guy with a gun under his jacket or in a holster. That is why we loose police by the way. I find it amazing that the police go looking for trouble as its their job. They are called to it. They are always alert and well trained both formally and by experience. Sometimes they still loose. Somehow we think carrying one keeps us safe. I have my doubts except in that very unusual and unlikely situation.

There was a case in Philadelphia where a citizen reported a guy with a gun. When confronted he reached quickly (to get his permit out) He is dead. The police were not wrong, they intended to go home alive that night. Tragic to say the least.

Manhatten New York 1978 3 guys are robbing a bank. The teller looks in the line and sees an off duty police officer in the line doing nothing. (because they already had their guns out and it was only money). The teller says " You are a cop! do something. They killed him with a shotgun immediately. He had 4 kids.

Anyhow, carry your guns, the constitution says you can. I pray it never comes out and I pray if it does it was very justified. Heck, the police get investigated, sued, and verbally attacked every time they shoot. I wonder what the jury will say if you are in a borderline situation.

Always remember: In all states, if you are the one threatened away from your home, you must retreat as much as humanly possible before you use that instrument of death. If not, you will probably be in jail later.

The constitution provides for the right to keep and bear arms. That provision was so the citizens could take up those arms as a well regulated militia and defend the nation or to overthrow the government should it loose its focus and become tyranical.

Am I a gun hater? Nope
Do I support the right to keep and bear arms? Yep
Do guns scare me to death? Absolutely
Do I have a reason to be scared to death? Yes, I have lived it. It is ugly, very ugly.

end of rant/

I do not carry any of my numerous weapons on my bike. I am permitted to do so. I believe the odds of my being a victim without it are less than my odds of having a problem with it.

Ron,

I couldn't agree more with your words here.

EXCEPT...about the "tyranical government" part. This mindset fuels idiots like the Aryan Nation, the old Black Panthers organization, and myriad other loonies out there in this country who because of some misplaced sense of machismo and/or convoluted idea of "freedom" and/or individual or collective sense of paranoia, think that their little cashe of weapons(or illegally owned military weaponry) is going to keep that "bad ol' government" from your doorstep.

If that "bad ol' government" wants your a$$ on a plate, it'll put it there. And I believe this very misconception that these fringe groups perpetuate into the consciousness of average Americans IS the crux of any debate about guns in this country...."well regulated militia" or not.

What I believe keeps us "free" from this sceanario ever happening in this great country are the 3 branches of government, and the faith that I have that those long dead men in powdered wigs wrote a Constitution of ideals that both limit power to the powerful, and give the rest of us recourse in a lawful manner when they forget it.

Cheers,
Dwight

In Australia no riding around with guns.Handguns banned except for gun clubs ,collectors etc

Frank, I thought handguns were a no no in Mass as well, thanks to the Kennedys. What are the laws there? Charlie

the laws are pretty strict. but i have my liscense. my father collects and i have shot matches. but i am staying out of the rest of this conversation. i like what greybeard said tho. to each there own. this is one of those topics people will neevr agree on

Frank

A week ago this past Sunday, the former Pres. of the Bridgeport, CT chapter of the Hell's Angels was gunned down on I-95, near exit 42 in West Haven, CT, while riding his Harley. Charlie

I'm a strict believer of how the 2nd. amendment was written. I have no problem if everone walked around with muskets as the framers of the constitution intended.

very interesting thread this. seems like a lot of paranoia and bullshite to me . guns for sports and hunting i,m all for that .carring guns on the street, concealed or not, no i,m not for that at all.how do i know you are licenced to carry it , are mentally stable enough to handle it , are well trained enough to not endanger me when i,m around you . i dont and you would be then infringing on my rights and freedoms .

An analogy. You are mountian climbing and fall in a crevace that cannot be climbed out of. You are unhurt, but will die there if you don't get out. Either you don't own a rope, don't have a big enough one or even worse, left it at home. Having a rope won't assure you of survival, but you may be doomed without it.

My apologies to you Friar for starting this can of worms. No, this isn't a can of worms, it is a supertanker of worms. We should agree to disagree on the gun issue and remember what we have in common, our love for the Americas and Speedmasters.
Steve

Went camping last summer on the bike. Went to pay for my site the ranger told me on how two Nam vets on harleys spent the night terrifed as two cougers fought over a bag of Doritoes they had left on the picnic table.
So yes, I carry my Tauras 9mm while camping.

Larry

Phil, I've never heard of a hallway howitzer, but that is a great description. It must be wonderful to have such a command of our language that can create such images in our minds eye.

Dwight, I was referring to the writings of Thomas Jefferson. They wanted the public allowed to be armed to get rid of a tyranical government. That was the purpose a long time ago, It certainly would not be a viable solution today. At the time of the writings we had a representative republic fresh off of a revolution. We also had not had the civil war preventing the states from withdrawing from the union, and we did not have the patiot act where just discussion of such a thing can make you vanish without a trace.

Then again when I watch the news I wonder hmmmm ---- lol.

What the hey, I might as well offer my opinions here. It's already been mentioned that this is one of those subjects that people will never agree on. But that's OK, this is the lounge where all manner of things are discussed. If only motorcycles were allowed to be discussed, we wouldn't even need this forum. The other forums on the site cover about every aspect of the bikes. Every community has members with vastly differing opinions on about everything. This is really an international gathering place for men and women with a common interest. So open a brew, pour a shot or get a cuppa Joe, and speak up. Respect the rights of others to have an opinion that conflicts with yours, even if they disagree with your most dearly held convictions. But keep it civil, or else the bouncer may have to unsheathe his hammer.

Oh yeah, I own handguns, shotguns and rifles. They're all locked in a safe, unless I take them out for use. Nevada has CCW permits available with just a background check and qualification test, but I've never felt the need to get one.

nuthin,
I was typing my response as you were posting , so I didn't see it 'til I posted .
You must have a great mind too .

Bill, I just read your post and thought, "Wow that guy is really intelligent. He reminds me of somebody I know!"

That is well stated, Derek. But, England has been a modern democracy with most of the rights granted to their citizenry centuries also(well...they DO still have that pesky little Peer thing going on and maybe still have to a small degree a mindset of a "Class System") and they haven't had to keep handguns in order to fight off the some supposed "tyrannical" government.

And so my question is to all those who still believe that their collection of firearms are an "Insurance Policy" in this regard.....Are you so unsure of our abilities in this country to continue this experiment in self-rule, and the foundations of this exercise that those wise men laid down in the 1780s, that you feel your last gasp in CHANGING these foundations comes at the end of a gun, and not through these very civil and reason based guidelines, also known as the Constitution Of The United States Of America.

It seems to me that for a bunch a "Believers" out there, your "faith" in the FRAMERS is pretty shaky.

And, once again, THIS particular sub-issue of this very complicated issue of gun ownership in this country, is often brought up as a "cornerstone" and "the bottom line" in those who feel strongly about their guns.

Now...Crime, and the perception of deterent of it by gun owners, is a separate issue, and one in which violent crime to the degree that we here experience it is both assisted AND deterred because of the now proliferation of weaponry in our country, and the annual body count bears this out.

And THAT'S why I have a shotgun AND a handgun in my position...AT HOME.....as I said earlier, "....'cuz almost every other swingin' dick here NOW has at least one also"!

Cheers,
Dwight

I ride wearing nothing but a loin cloth and an AK-47 strapped to my back. I refuse to wear a helmet and let my remaining gray locks grow wild and free. Neighbors refer to me as "King Tom" and quickly realize never to make direct eye contact.

I never actually owned a weapon. I understand you can "open carry" in Virginia (less some establishments), but require a permit to carry concealed.

Though I don't own one, I'd fight for your right to.

Ok I've tried to stay out of this but...

I will begin by saying I am a registered gun owner, have shot competition, and own more than one long barrel and more than one hand gun, I have had a class A permit in MA and have a concealed permit in NH.

I rarely if ever carry anymore but do on occasion, when I feel the situation calls for it.

Now, I am in favor of some sort of SENCIBLE gun control (beyond the traditional "means using both hands" stand) HOWEVER that being said...Instituting ADDITIONAL laws instead of enforcing EXISTING laws is stupid!! In MA they actually made it more of a crime to MURDER someone with a gun than with a knife!!!...I thought MURDER was ALREADY illegal!! You killed him with a knife..ok...no!! you used a GUN!!! Oh buddy your sooo screwed now!


The old cleshay (sp) "if guns are outlawed only outlaws will have guns" may be the rally cry of the NRA but to some extent IT'S TRUE...Most of the gun ledgislation written is done as a knee jerk reaction and TYPICALLY makes it more difficult for the LAW ABBIDING citizens to obtain a gun....yet it's still just as easy for the criminals to get them...raise your hands..how many think the street thug cares if you have to wait 10 days before you get the gun you bought at the local shop...he/she isn't buying their guns legaly to start with!! Unfortunatly the lawmakers use this knee jerk legislation to tout their "tough on crime" position, when in reality they haven't done a damm thing, but it makes good copy so go with it!

On the flip side...there are alot of legal gun owners who have absolutly no place owning a gun EVER! because there IRRESPONCIBLE IDIOTS!

My family has worked extensivly with local, state, and federal law enforcement agencys and their oppions vary greatly on home "protection" firearms...with several exceptions...

1. If your going to own a wepon for home protection, make it a shot gun! end of story! it requires far less skill to opperate, and your need to be an accurate shot is reduced to "non existant"

2. If you keep a firearm for home protection and you have no choice but to pull it out, pull the F'n trigger...DO NOT use it as a threat, you WILL be shot with your own gun!

3. Always remember that "most" owner occupied burgalries occure in the middle of the night...you are sound asleep...they are WIDE awake...you are grogy and lethargic when awakened...they are running on pure addreniline...your eyes need time to adjust....their eyes are already adjusted...you are caught off guard...they KNEW you were there, and quite possibly, that you were armed, and have broken in ANYWAY....they are prepared for a confrontation and have thought about it...you were dreaming about Pam Anderson and her three beautiful friends...THEY have the upper hand NOT you!!!

According to them most people shot in home invasions/burglaries are shot WITH THERE OWN WEPON!

Now back to the irresponcible gun owners...

If you live with a child and you leave a loaded gun lying around the house... you qualify

If you don't live with children and you leave a gun lying around your home unsecured, and you DONT carry it with you when you leave your home...you qualify, as you amy have just increased the illegal gun quantity on the street after they break in and find a gun for easy pickin

If you bought it "because it's your right and you could" and have NEVER been trained in its use and handeling you DEFINATLY qualify...these are the same morons who shoot themselves while cleaning their gun!

OH and while I'm on this rant IF YOU TEACH YOUR KID THAT GUNS ARE TOYS!!!! and he goes to his buddys house and finds the real deal (cause dad/mom is a moron) and he points it at his buddy and kills him/her...ITS YOUR FAULT YOU TAUGHT YOUR KID THAT GUNS ARE TOYS>>>THEY ARE NOT TOYS PEOPLE GET IT THRU YOUR THICK HEADS!!! teach your kids that they are deadly and how to handle them PROPERLY...if you don't know...then learn!!

heres a good start

RULE #1 Assume EVERY gun is LOADED untill you have checked it YOURSELF...then TREAT it as if it WERE!

2. don't point the thing at someone unless you intend to shoot them....because you will

3. keep your damm finger OFF the trigger UNTIL your ready to shoot!

4. If You DON'T know how to handel a gun, DON'T!!!

One more thing if your not FULLY prepared to pull the triger and KILL someone/thing...DONT pull the gun on them...It's not a threat...it's your LAST f'n chance of making it out alive...and if it ISN'T your last chance...it will be, right after they snatch it from your quivering hand and shoot YOU!

Unfortunatly Both sides are unwilling to compromise...so reasonable, well thought out controlls are not likely in the future...and the criminals will still be armed, Irresponcible morons will still buy guns they can't/shouldnt handle and the responcible, law abbiding gun owner will continue to ****** and moan about the "latest rules" while the Pro/Anti continues to fight

It is interesting to note that "guns" and "beer" seem to have generated the most interest lately on the forum.

Taking the opportunity to spin off at a wild tangent, I just find it marginally stupid that here in Ohio you are allowed to "pack heat" because the state thinks that we're all responsible enough to carry loaded guns in a busy street.

But you can't drink alcohol at a strip club because the state thinks we're not responsible enough to keep our d**ks in our pants when we're drunk. Go figure.

Siggy

interesting conjecture there, siggy...i wonder, though...are you permitted to take your loaded guns into said strip clubs?

When ever I go to a strip club my wallet gets thinner...but my gun goes from a .380 snub nose to a .45 long barel