 LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Learned Hand
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OP
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web pageREMEMBER....ED 
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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Paul Harvey was one of my favorite radio shows. He came on the country station when I was a kid. I didnt like country music but the old man did so thats what he listened to in his shop. I learned to work on every mechanical device owned by the average man in that shop. Paul Harvey show was break time.
We have lost touch with our core values as a nation as we try to become Europeanized. Not that we ever maintained our core values. But at leats I think we worked toward them up until probably the early 60s. I think we lost our way during the vietnam conflict. When we failed to support freedom for the Vietnamese when they asked Eisenhower for his support in expelling the French. We started turning our backs on our values. When we abandonded South Vietnam in the end we were full 180 facing away from what America stands for. We put shame on our own soldiers and that was a shame on our nation. We have never recovered.
While many Americans want to pick up that mantel, and begin our march toward liberty again. I think its a far cry dream.
Dont make any mistake. I love America, its people, its founding principles, and the American dream. Its quite sad to watch it fade into the foot notes of history. I will alway honor our soldiers, veterans, and lost heroes, no matter what war or time they served in. Shaming our soldiers was the worst disgrace of our nation.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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Couldn't agree more.
From the beginning our positions in Vietnam were about supporting big money. That's kinda become the American MO. If you want to find out why our government takes a certain position just take 'Deep Throat's' advice and , "follow the money".
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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New Tires
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New Tires
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Quote:
Couldn't agree more.
From the beginning our positions in Vietnam were about supporting big money. That's kinda become the American MO. If you want to find out why our government takes a certain position just take 'Deep Throat's' advice and , "follow the money".
No doubt many USA interventions have taken place to defend specific corporate economic interest, but Nam was not one. George F. Kennan's anti-communist policy of "Containment", as opposed to "rollback" or "appeasement" was US foreign policy since 1946 till Nixon's policy change to "Detente". The US and it's allies practised "Containment" on every continent, NATO was a product of it, as was SEATO (South East Asia Treaty Ogr.).
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Member
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Thanks for posting this. Very sobering and inspiring. There are many threats to liberty today and much already lost. I wonder if there is will to preserve what remains. I suppose one should begin by looking inward - am I ready to pledge my life, my fortune (though small) and sacred honor?
My bike has whitewalls, my minivan has flames
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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Mac, our failure in Nam was failure to support them when they asked us to help them expel the French oppressors. Our chance at redemption was failure to once committed to support south Vietnam to win.
Yes Sr. Gooberkat, I fully respect and support out soldiers and the fragile ideology of liberty. Our Constitution is a document designed wonderfully for the job of protecting liberty.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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New Tires
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New Tires
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CrazyHorse, when did Nam ever ask for help expelling their "french oppressors". The USA stepped in when the French were defeated at Dien Bien Phu in 1954,in the first Indochina War.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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Long before they even began fighting. Look it up. It was Truman not Eisenhower. Sorry I had the wrong president. http://rationalrevolution.net/war/collection_of_letters_by_ho_chi_.htm
Last edited by locopony; 07/04/2013 7:44 PM.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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DEAR MR. PRESIDENT:
Our VIETNAM people,as early as 1941,stood by the Allies' side and fought against the Japanese and their associates,the French colonialists.
From 1941 to 1945 we fought bitterly,sustained by the patriotism,of our fellow-countrymen and by the promises made by the Allies at YALTA,SAN FRANCISCO and POTSDAM.
When the Japanese were defeated in August 1945,the whole Vietnam territory was united under a Provisional Republican Government,which immediately set out to work. In five months,peace and order were restored,a democratic republic was established on legal bases,and adequate help was given to the Allies in the carrying out of their disarmament mission.
But the French Colonialists,who betrayed in wartime both the Allies and the Vietnamese,have come back, and are waging on us a murderous and pitiless war in order reestablish their domination. Their invasion has extended to South Vietnam and is menacing us in North Vietnam. It would take volumes to give even an abbreviated report of the crisis and assassinations they are committing everyday in this fighting area.
This aggression is contrary to all principles of international law and the pledge made by the Allies during World War II. It is a challenge to the noble attitude shown before,during,and after the war by the United States Government and People. It violently contrasts with the firm stand you have taken in your twelve point declaration,and with the idealistic loftiness and generosity expressed by your delegates to the United Nations Assembly,MM. BYRNES,STETTINIUS,AND J.F. DULLES.
The French aggression on a peace-loving people is a direct menace to world security. It implies the complicity,or at least the connivance of the Great Democracies. The United Nations ought to keep their words. They ought to interfere to stop this unjust war,and to show that they mean to carry out in peacetime the principles for which they fought in wartime.
Our Vietnamese people,after so many years of spoliation and devastation,is just beginning its building-up work. It needs security and freedom,first to achieve internal prosperity and welfare,and later to bring its small contribution to world-reconstruction.
These security and freedom can only be guaranteed by our independence from any colonial power,and our free cooperation with all other powers. It is with this firm conviction that we request of the United Sates as guardians and champions of World Justice to take a decisive step in support of our independence.
What we ask has been graciously granted to the Philippines. Like the Philippines our goal is full independence and full cooperation with the UNITED STATES. We will do our best to make this independence and cooperation profitable to the whole world.
I am Dear Mr. PRESIDENT,
Respectfully Yours,
(Signed) Ho Chi Minh Letter to Secretary of State James Byrnes, November 1, 1945
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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You're quite perceptive there Chad. In fact many of the places where communism took hold was in places where we supported oppressive dictatorships.
If there really was a plan to stop communism it would have been to depose the autocrats/colonials and support democratic reform.
But the big money has always wanted to have "plantation economies" so we actually de facto encouraged the communist revolutions in places like Cuba, Nicaragua, Vietnam, and others.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Just curious, how would the men who founded this country react to NSA snooping and the IRS going after certain political speech? What would they have to say concerning the size and pervasiveness of modern American government? Compared to the American citizens from 1782 through 1910 how free are we? We talk about our freedom and liberty but, compared to our forefathers, how free are we? Consider the questions rhetorical, after all we don't need to close down another thread.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Learned Hand
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OP
Learned Hand
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Quote:
Thanks for posting this. Very sobering and inspiring. There are many threats to liberty today and much already lost. I wonder if there is will to preserve what remains. I suppose one should begin by looking inward - am I ready to pledge my life, my fortune (though small) and sacred honor?
yes this one reason i posted this ..not going to fight over where it started.. all I know its happening and I wanted people to remember what this day is really about and important..
ED
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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New Tires
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New Tires
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Yes, Ho Chi Min was a democrat, just like the NY Times told us Castro was, Mao was, Stalin was, Kim Il-sung was and all the leaders of Eastern Europe were, remember? One can not take the letter out of the historical context of what was happening post WWII.
Thank god Truman wasn't an idiot. I also would speculate the State Dept. has file cabinets full on letters like this from dictators all over the world.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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New Tires
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New Tires
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Quote:
Just curious, how would the men who founded this country react to NSA snooping and the IRS going after certain political speech? What would they have to say concerning the size and pervasiveness of modern American government? Compared to the American citizens from 1782 through 1910 how free are we? We talk about our freedom and liberty but, compared to our forefathers, how free are we? Consider the questions rhetorical, after all we don't need to close down another thread.
I believe you can date the decline to March 4, 1913.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Don't forget February 3, 1913.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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New Tires
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New Tires
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Quote:
Don't forget February 3, 1913.
"The power to tax is the power to destroy", Daniel Webster.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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Quote:
Yes, Ho Chi Min was a democrat, just like the NY Times told us Castro was, Mao was, Stalin was, Kim Il-sung was and all the leaders of Eastern Europe were, remember? One can not take the letter out of the historical context of what was happening post WWII.
Thank god Truman wasn't an idiot. I also would speculate the State Dept. has file cabinets full on letters like this from dictators all over the world.
Oh yes thank God we, broke our promise made to them for their help in the pacific war, and supported a tyranny that was starving and robbing ones we promised to support in exchange for their help. Yes thank God we turned our back on our word forcing them to turn to China for support. All in favor of a nation who fought against us until they saw that Germany was losing the war. Then they changed sides. Sounds like a wonderful decision. When we could have made the case in the UN that France was abusing their position and had them removed with out firing a shot. But it was better that many were killed over this. Nice.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Check Pants
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Check Pants
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Their key to power lies with the "Low Information Voter" and their ideology of free goods and services from a central government. America, the only country in the world, where poor people are routinely fat. Excuse me, my "O" phone is ringing, GTG.
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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All in favor of a nation who fought against us until they saw that Germany was losing the war.
I don't remember the Italians occupying VietNam. The French were occupied by the Germans in 1940. They fought against the Germans from the same time as the Brits. Not especially well, but still on the same side we later took.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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New Tires
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New Tires
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Quote:
Quote:
Yes, Ho Chi Min was a democrat, just like the NY Times told us Castro was, Mao was, Stalin was, Kim Il-sung was and all the leaders of Eastern Europe were, remember? One can not take the letter out of the historical context of what was happening post WWII.
Thank god Truman wasn't an idiot. I also would speculate the State Dept. has file cabinets full on letters like this from dictators all over the world.
Oh yes thank God we, broke our promise made to them for their help in the pacific war, and supported a tyranny that was starving and robbing ones we promised to support in exchange for their help. Yes thank God we turned our back on our word forcing them to turn to China for support. All in favor of a nation who fought against us until they saw that Germany was losing the war. Then they changed sides. Sounds like a wonderful decision. When we could have made the case in the UN that France was abusing their position and had them removed with out firing a shot. But it was better that many were killed over this. Nice.
France was invaded and occupied by Germany in WWII. Were there French quislings, sure, were they imprisoned and hanged after the war, sure.
In an alternative universe Ho and the Viet Minh would have been democrats, not been surrogates of the Sino-soviet imperialism. FYI, in 1945 Ho didn't control Viet Nam, he basically set in Hanoi and declared independence, unfortunately the South wasn't communist and didn't want to be. Did the french intervene to re-establish a colony, maybe. Did the French intervene to stop the communist aggression, definitely, hence the Allies support.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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August 1945 - Japanese surrender unconditionally. Vietnam's puppet emperor,Bao Dai, abdicates. Ho Chi Minh's guerrillas occupy Hanoi and proclaim a provisional government.
September 2,1945 - Japanese sign the surrender agreement in Tokyo Bay formally ending World War II in the Pacific. On this same day,Ho Chi Minh proclaims the independence of Vietnam by quoting from the text of the American Declaration of Independence which had been supplied to him by the OSS -- "We hold the truth that all men are created equal,that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights,among them life,liberty and the pursuit of happiness. This immortal statement is extracted from the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America in 1776. These are undeniable truths."
Ho declares himself president of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam and pursues American recognition but is repeatedly ignored by President Harry Truman.
September 13,1945 - British forces arrive in Saigon,South Vietnam.
In North Vietnam,150,000 Chinese Nationalist soldiers,consisting mainly of poor peasants,arrive in Hanoi after looting Vietnamese villages during their entire march down from China. They then proceed to loot Hanoi.
September 22,1945 - In South Vietnam,1400 French soldiers released by the British from former Japanese internment camps enter Saigon and go on a deadly rampage,attacking Viet Minh and killing innocent civilians including children, aided by French civilians who joined the rampage. An estimated 20,000 French civilians live in Saigon.
September 24,1945 - In Saigon,Viet Minh successfully organize a general strike shutting down all commerce along with electricity and water supplies. In a suburb of Saigon,members of Binh Xuyen,a Vietnamese criminal organization, massacre 150 French and Eurasian civilians,including children.
September 26,1945 - The first American death in Vietnam occurs,during the unrest in Saigon,as OSS officer Lt. Col. A. Peter Dewey is killed by Viet Minh guerrillas who mistook him for a French officer. Before his death,Dewey had filed a report on the deepening crisis in Vietnam,stating his opinion that the U.S. "ought to clear out of Southeast Asia."
October 1945 - 35,000 French soldiers under the command of World War II General Jacques Philippe Leclerc arrive in South Vietnam to restore French rule. Viet Minh immediately begin a guerrilla campaign to harass them. The French then succeed in expelling the Viet Minh from Saigon.
1946
February 1946 - The Chinese under Chiang Kai-shek agree to withdraw from North Vietnam and allow the French to return in exchange for French concessions in Shanghai and other Chinese ports.
March 1946 - Ho Chi Minh agrees to permit French troops to return to Hanoi temporarily in exchange for French recognition of his Democratic Republic of Vietnam. Chinese troops then depart.
May-September - Ho Chi Minh spends four months in France attempting to negotiate full independence and unity for Vietnam,but fails to obtain any guarantee from the French.
June 1946 - In a major affront to Ho Chi Minh,the French high commissioner for Indochina proclaims a separatist French-controlled government for South Vietnam (Republic of Chochinchina).
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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October 1949 - Mao Zedong's Communist forces defeat Chiang Kai-shek's Nationalist Army in the Chinese civil war. Mao's victory ignites American anti-Communist sentiment regarding Southeast Asia and will result in a White House foreign policy goal of "containment" of Communist expansion in the region.
1950
January 1950 - The People's Republic of China and the Soviet Union recognize Ho Chi Minh's Democratic Republic of Vietnam.
China then begins sending military advisors and modern weapons to the Viet Minh including automatic weapons,mortars, howitzers,and trucks. Much of the equipment is American-made and had belonged to the Chinese Nationalists before their defeat by Mao. With the influxof new equipment and Chinese advisors,General Giap transforms his guerrilla fighters into conventional army units including five light infantry divisions and one heavy division.
February 1950 - The United States and Britain recognize Bao Dai's French-controlled South Vietnam government.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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The spread of communism didnt start until 1949 and didnt come into play in Vietnam until 1950. The french started taking over Vietnam in 1945. So no the French were not there to stave the march of communism. They were there to rule over the vietnamese people.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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Now I will give general Charles DeGaulle credit. He and his band of exiles the French free army held true to the allies from the begining. But the French nationals surrendered in four days and set up a cooperational government with the Germans and the Italians.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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"The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is, in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible." George Washington
"Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations -- entangling alliances with none." Thomas Jefferson
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New Tires
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New Tires
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The Viet Minh was established in 1941, was headed by Ho Chi Minh and was Marxist-Leninist from the start. It didn't take long after the Japanese expulsion to begin "agricultural reform" in the north, we all know what communist "agricultural reform" means. In 1954 when the country was partitioned, guess which direction the refugees traveled.
By your logic a simple letter from Kim Il and the USA should leave S. Korea.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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Neil Peart states: “All those paeans to American restlessness and the American road carried a tinge of wistfulness, an acknowledgment of the hardships of the vagrant life, the notion that wanderlust could be involuntary, exile as much as freedom, and indeed, the understanding that freedom wasn’t free. In the mid-’70s, the band was driving to a show in downtown Los Angeles, at the Shrine Auditorium, and I noticed some graffiti splattered across a wall: ‘Freedom isn't free,’ and I adapted that for a song on 2112, ‘Something for Nothing’”.
Blowing gravel off rural roads
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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No Mac, what I am saying is we could have simply kept our word to them and made the French do the same. We may have avoided a very nasty war for questionable reasons. It would have been much clearer if Ho had not kept his word rather than us not keeping ours. And who knows may be after the Chinese revolution spread to Indochina we may have ended up fighting there like we did Korea. But that was much clearer.
But we may have been able to use Ho to accomplish what we did in the Philippines and even Japan to create democratic republic based on liberty and freedom. But we will never know because we broke our word and failed to promote independence and liberty, our core values as a nation.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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Quote:
"The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is, in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible." George Washington
"Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations -- entangling alliances with none." Thomas Jefferson
Yes according to our founders, but by the end of WW2 we were actively involved in creating and establishing the UN, and NATO. We were waist deep in world politics at this point. Now we are burried in it.
America is still the greatest nation and the last best hope, and a shining star but we arent as bright as we could be. To much political ineptitude and corruption.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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"We may have avoided a very nasty war for questionable reasons."
Man, cut and paste THAT line with all kinds of US foreign policy.
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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Yes I agree smokey, without any doubt.
I'm quite sure the one we are pursuing now is gonna lead to more problems rather than solve any.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
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New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
I'll agree with that, but while foreign policy impacts security, liberty is a domestic issue.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
Has anyone else heard the tapes recently released from the LBJ archives? Naturally, the report was on the BBC as we don't have a news industry in the US anymore. There's one between LBJ and Everett Dirksen (Republican senator). The Nixon/Humphrey election was going on. Nixon had been contacting the North Vietnamese via backdoor channels and told them not to sign the peace treaty they were ready to sign because Nixon promised them a better deal if they would wait until after the election. (The conventional wisdom is that the War turned the tide of the election to Nixon.) What Nixon didn't know was that the CIA was recording the contacts between the Nixon people and the North Vietnamese.
The lines in quotation marks are from my memory but they are pretty close if not exact.
LBJ told Dirksen that he was afraid if the American public knew that one of the candidates for President was committing treason, and doing it to steal the Presidential election, that it might "bring down the country". LBJ told Dirksen that "the public must never know" about Nixon's dealings but "this must stop". Dirkson replied, "I understand Mr. President."
LBJ (and Dirksen) took it to his grave.
While there have long been reports of this having happened listening to the tapes of the characters involved was pretty riveting stuff.
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
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New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
Johnson didn't accuse Nixon campaign of talking to the North, he accused them of talking to the South. Not sure talking to allies constitute treason, besides the South always refused to come to the peace table during the entire LBJ administration. LBJ did mention to Dirkson there was precedence for bilateral peace talks, Chamberlain and Hitler over Czechoslovakia, Czechoslovakia wasn't at the table when given away. Humphrey wasn't going to win that election either way. he was tied to LBJ's policies and failed to distance himself from them, then there was the New Left's and Old Left's confrontation in Chicago at the convention. "For God's sake, you want everybody to know you don't play politics with human lives, that we did what's right," Johnson tells Rusk on one of the recordings. One might want to put this into historical perspective, the charts of US troop escalation and deaths dropped precipitously after Nixon's election. FYI, LBJ confronted Nixon in a taped conversation, Nixon denied it, so who knows. LBJ seems to have made a lot of excuses after he announced his intention not to run. Interestingly, LBJ must not have thought Humphrey was going to win all along, it's been reported that he had a secret plan to fligh to Chicago to save the day and accept the nomination at the last minute. I'm sure the Secret Service rolled the eyes as they explained to him that they couldn't guarantee his safety in Chicago. LBJ is no different than most presidents' delusions and scapegoating in their final days as president. LBJ is not real different than most in office, they're politicians, but LBJ was never known for integrity. He did what was necessary to make deals or win elections. 
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,018
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,018 |
Im not sure how the thread title turned into a manifesto about Vietnam...This by Ben Franklin would seem more to the point.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
Quote:
Johnson didn't accuse Nixon campaign of talking to the North, he accused them of talking to the South. Not sure talking to allies constitute treason, besides the South always refused to come to the peace table during the entire LBJ administration.
LBJ did mention to Dirkson there was precedence for bilateral peace talks, Chamberlain and Hitler over Czechoslovakia, Czechoslovakia wasn't at the table when given away.
Humphrey wasn't going to win that election either way. he was tied to LBJ's policies and failed to distance himself from them, then there was the New Left's and Old Left's confrontation in Chicago at the convention.
"For God's sake, you want everybody to know you don't play politics with human lives, that we did what's right," Johnson tells Rusk on one of the recordings. One might want to put this into historical perspective, the charts of US troop escalation and deaths dropped precipitously after Nixon's election. FYI, LBJ confronted Nixon in a taped conversation, Nixon denied it, so who knows.
LBJ seems to have made a lot of excuses after he announced his intention not to run. Interestingly, LBJ must not have thought Humphrey was going to win all along, it's been reported that he had a secret plan to fligh to Chicago to save the day and accept the nomination at the last minute. I'm sure the Secret Service rolled the eyes as they explained to him that they couldn't guarantee his safety in Chicago. LBJ is no different than most presidents' delusions and scapegoating in their final days as president. LBJ is not real different than most in office, they're politicians, but LBJ was never known for integrity. He did what was necessary to make deals or win elections.
You are correct. Nixon (allegedly) arranged to have the South Viet delegation walk out of the peace talks.
As far as asserting that Humphrey could not have won the election, I don't believe that is an accurate assertion. As I recall Nixon won by less than one percent of the popular vote.
Of course, we'll never know.
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1
Second Wind
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Second Wind
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1 |
Trash, I think the most important element of maitaining liberty is to clearly see the past. The assertion that I made implying that our involvment and handling of the Vietnam situation was a clear factor in becoming the nanny state we have evolved into.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,207 Likes: 58
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,207 Likes: 58 |
Quote:
Im not sure how the thread title turned into a manifesto about Vietnam...This by Ben Franklin would seem more to the point.
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
+1
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7 |
Too often voters are more concerned with getting something from the government (meaning, of course, their neighbors) than they are with maintaining their freedom and liberties. Throw in the (mostly) false promise of security and there are plenty of people willing let the politicians and bureaucrats act as their daddy.
I think the health care debate is a perfect example. Prior to WWII healthcare insurance was unheard of. Now most people are terrified to be without the security blanket of health coverage but they don't want to pay for it. Politicians seize upon that anxiety and offer to give it to them for free, without mentioning the actual cost of course. The government gains control of your health care and medical records, gets to use the excuse that they are paying for your health care to limit your liberties (helmets, fatty foods, smoking, etc) They get to set salaries and reimbursements for medical professionals while maintaining a huge bureaucracy that decides whether or not your needed medical care is "appropriate." But hey, the government is taking care of us and it's FREE.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1
Second Wind
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Second Wind
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1 |
Your right ladisney, execpt I never wanted health coverage, but am forced to have it. And it a scam. $5000.00 per year deductable. I have never used that much medical in 5 years. So basically I am paying for somethin Ill never ever use because I am forced to by govco.
I do hate them, politicians and scoundrely insurance companies.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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