 Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Your right ladisney, execpt I never wanted health coverage, but am forced to have it. And it a scam. $5000.00 per year deductable. I have never used that much medical in 5 years. So basically I am paying for somethin Ill never ever use because I am forced to by govco.
I do hate them, politicians and scoundrely insurance companies.
What would your ideal plan be? For you, I mean. No insurance? If so, what happens when the inevitable illness comes (we do ALL get something if we're not hit by a truck or something).
Just curious.
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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I paid cash in the past. Which is what I will have to still do even with insurance. So nothing has changed except I have a monthly bill for nothing.
At 5Gs per year I have no idea what this thing is good for. I dont know what inevitable illness is gonna cost so much.
Last edited by locopony; 07/09/2013 10:27 PM.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 582
Adjunct
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Adjunct
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I've noticed the more liberal the state the faster they tell you what you can't do, I can't under stand how this is called freedom.
For the price of insurance I'd rather have something I would use like another bike.
I'm not greedy I just want the same healthcare Congress gets for free for life.
"Got the wind in my face the road goes on for miles...."
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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Quote:
Your right ladisney, execpt I never wanted health coverage, but am forced to have it. And it a scam. $5000.00 per year deductable. I have never used that much medical in 5 years. So basically I am paying for somethin Ill never ever use because I am forced to by govco.
I do hate them, politicians and scoundrely insurance companies.
Good point Chad, the insurance companies and healthcare corporations are at the very least as intrusive and controlling as any government program would ever be, much more so probably.
Paying cash is a great idea but what happens when/if you develop a chronic illness, or have a stroke or a heart attack, or get cancer, or get busted up in a bike wreck, etc.? Or it happens to someone you love?
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Sep 2010
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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Insurance companies are in business because health care dont cost what they charge. They pool and invest and profit. What if the actual health care providers could do this in co-ops and control costs from there. Then tou would not have insurance companies profit and the medical provider profiting creating a need for double profiting. This would reduce cost. If ya take my meaning.
Last edited by locopony; 07/10/2013 12:26 AM.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Every insurance company exists to
1) Make money, just like every other company in the world.
2) Spread the risk of adverse events among many policy holders so that financial risk is minimized if an adverse event occurs.
The policyholder should be allowed to cover only the events they want to cover. I'm sixty years old next month and my wife is 18 months younger. Why should I pay for child birth coverage? I want a high deductible and coverage for the perils I might actually suffer. I don't want to pay for perils others might face. I shouldn't have to pay for birth control, drug addiction, mental health (Shut up Dwight) and everything else the government wants to force me to pay for.
If we did auto insurance the same way the government wants to do healthcare coverage the insurance company would pay for wiper blades, tires, tune ups, brake pads and oil changes. What do you think that would do to your premiums?
Insurance is supposed to keep you from financial ruin, not pay for every expense.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
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Quote:
I paid cash in the past. Which is what I will have to still do even with insurance. So nothing has changed except I have a monthly bill for nothing.
At 5Gs per year I have no idea what this thing is good for. I dont know what inevitable illness is gonna cost so much.
Well, that's fine if you envision a charmed life or you have an extra couple hundred thousand lying around. But what happens if you have an accident, or cancer, or something? I'm not advocating anything here, just saying. I've had a couple accidents in the past decade. One left me out of work for seven months and with about $65,000 in bills, a lot of which I still had to cover.
I am appalled by 'for profit' health insurance, though. Lots of us seem to have forgotten that, for the most part, prior to the 1970s almost all health insurance was not for profit. That's when there weren't co-pays or deductibles, which is how a lot of old timers seem to think it still works because that's what they grew up with.
I work with this stuff every day. I am a 'provider' for most all of them. Whether you like government programs or not, the efficiency of Medicare and Medicaid (2.8 - 3.4 overhead instead of tens times that of for profit companies) is staggering by comparison.
I've also lived an 'active' life and put myself in the receiving end of the health care system more than I like to think about. I just don't believe in relying on good luck.
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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Insurance companies are in business because health care dont cost what they charge. They pool and invest and profit. What if the actual health care providers could do this in co-ops and control costs from there. Then tou would not have insurance companies profit and the medical provider profiting creating a need for double profiting. This would reduce cost. If ya take my meaning.
I'm on board. Sign me up. Actually, that's kind of what I have now.
Again, I'm not advocating here, I am currently part of a hospital system self insurance plan and had BCBS before that, but there is one part of the Affordable Care Act that I really, really am in favor of (actually one of many, it just doesn't do enough).
In the past for profit health insurance companies could skim as much of the premiums for profits and bonuses and they wanted. Under the ACA they are required to put 80% premiums toward patient care and 20% for overhead. While that's still a huge skim compared to Medicare's 2.8%, it wasn't unusual for a for profit company to skim off 38%+ previously to cover those eight (or nine) figure salaries of the guys at the top.
I've had many fellow health care providers go to work for insurance companies. Every one of them left within a year. They all said the same thing. Their jobs were to figure a way to not pay claims. That's what they did all day long. Find a loophole in the plan so the company wouldn't have to pay. I think the better of them for leaving the bigger paychecks behind to save their souls.
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Sep 2010
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
Joined: Sep 2010
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I cant pretend to know what all is in the ACA, its a monstrous bill over 3000 pages long, and I'm sure loaded with legal and medical jargon that I would not understand. I know I am not happy with the plan I can afford after long compairison shopping. I also know I have to do something or be persecuted by the IRS.
There are no co-op provider plans here in Texas that I'm aware of.
I could be wrong, but I think health care profiteering is unethical.
I would be in support of a bill that mandated provider plans. Basically that health care providers create cooperatives plans.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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I could be wrong, but I think health care profiteering is unethical.
Of course it is. Some kid is denied a kidney to facilitate a CEO taking home $90,000,000.00 a year? There is a special place in Hell for those people.
In most industrialized countries 'for profit' health insurance is illegal for just that reason.
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Dec 2006
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New Tires
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New Tires
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I don't believe there exist a health insurance CEO that makes $90 million. 
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Oil Expert
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Stephen Helmsley, United HealthCare, had a total compensation package of $106 million for fiscal year 2009.
The craziest part is often the severance packages where it's not at all unusual to see buyouts run into the hundreds of millions (Helmsley's was 400-some million).
I read in the WSJ where Helmsley got a 198% raise but there weren't any accompanying numbers to explain exactly what that meant.
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Sep 2010
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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So the bill now forces everyone to pay one of these mega rich guys more money. No wonder you didnt hear any insurance companies squalling or bauking about it.
Them fat basstards are gonna get even richer on the working mans dime.
I hate politics and politicians. You have to be a special kind of sociopathic megalomaniac to be a politician.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Dec 2006
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New Tires
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New Tires
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Business Week reports his annual salary as $1,300,000.[4] Forbes Magazine ranks him at 296th in its 2009 Special Report on CEO Compensation.[5] His compensation was estimated at $3,241,042 by the FierceHealthcare newsletter.[6] According to bizjournals.com the country's highest-paid From wikipedia, "CEO, Stephen Hemsley, made $101.96 million in 2010.[7] In 2011 he was named the highest paid CEO by Forbes following a large gain in the value of his stock ownership. [8] In late 2011, Hemsley's most recent annual compensation was estimated by Forbes at $48.8 million."
I'm not defending high CEO salaries, but salaries and compensation are different numbers. Even CEOs that take $1 salary a year, cash in stock options for millions if the corporation does well or improves.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
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Not for profit doesn't mean they are not making money. It usually means they just don't have anyone to enforce any spending discipline. Blue Cross/Blue Shield usually has a very nice building and they pay very well. Like most non profit hospitals they simply charge what they want and then spend the money. Parking ramps, new furniture every few years, remodeling offices, bonuses for executives, whatever they want, after all, they can't show a profit so they just blow through it.
The government is non profit, are they a model of efficiency and thrift?
For some reason a lot of people think medicine and education are better if they are non profit. As if it's immoral to make money. I can guarantee you there are a lot of very high incomes in medicine, education and government, non profits all. At least a for-profit entity has to justify it's spending to the owners of the enterprise.
For those of you who think non profits are better please explain why medical care and education, both dominated by non profits, have had much larger price increases than anywhere else in the economy?
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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Quote:
Not for profit doesn't mean they are not making money. It usually means they just don't have anyone to enforce any spending discipline. Blue Cross/Blue Shield usually has a very nice building and they pay very well. Like most non profit hospitals they simply charge what they want and then spend the money. Parking ramps, new furniture every few years, remodeling offices, bonuses for executives, whatever they want, after all, they can't show a profit so they just blow through it.
The government is non profit, are they a model of efficiency and thrift?
For some reason a lot of people think medicine and education are better if they are non profit. As if it's immoral to make money. I can guarantee you there are a lot of very high incomes in medicine, education and government, non profits all. At least a for-profit entity has to justify it's spending to the owners of the enterprise.
For those of you who think non profits are better please explain why medical care and education, both dominated by non profits, have had much larger price increases than anywhere else in the economy?
Are there still some non-profit Blue Cross/Blue Shield Companies? I don't think so but maybe. All the ones I've worked with have been for profit for a long, long time.
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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So the bill now forces everyone to pay one of these mega rich guys more money. No wonder you didnt hear any insurance companies squalling or bauking about it.
Them fat basstards are gonna get even richer on the working mans dime.
I hate politics and politicians. You have to be a special kind of sociopathic megalomaniac to be a politician.
No doubt. I'd prefer single payer and get the blood suckers out of the business all together. As long as there is profit to be made these companies are gonna skim as many dollars away from health care as they can.
That's their job.
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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I hate politics and politicians. You have to be a special kind of sociopathic megalomaniac to be a politician.
In that case you better never get ticced off enough to run for office because that will make you one of them.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Sep 2010
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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Make no mistake. I'm not against profit. When you sell insurance and then look for ways to not provide the coverage. Mean while some poor schmuck needs a treatment he cant get while the one he paid for the protection is living the plush life. There is a problem. I call it fraud and criminally evil.
It would be the same if I sold you a car over the internet and you came to collect it was a model car.
I dont know how well nonprofit medical is working. I do know however that a man in a suit and tie denies a person treatment because it is expensive after years of that man paying for coverage. And a 5G deductable yearly on a 50/50 plan is bull shine.
I still think medical cooperatives set up and run by the provider would have to work better.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,720
Check Pants
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Check Pants
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Smokey, I just do not understand, all these health care concerns, were 100% brought about, by your often stated and expressed, favorite flavor of political dogma? Care to opine? Somebody called me the "R" word a couple of years ago, when I expressed reservations about giving the Feds control over 1/6th of our economy.
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7 |
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No doubt. I'd prefer single payer and get the blood suckers out of the business all together. As long as there is profit to be made these companies are gonna skim as many dollars away from health care as they can.
That's their job.
That's right, the politicians and bureaucrats will do a much better job. As an added bonus they'll be the only game in town and their decisions are final. The government does everything better.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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Smokey, I just do not understand, all these health care concerns, were 100% brought about, by your often stated and expressed, favorite flavor of political dogma?...
I can only assume you're joking.
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Sep 2010
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
Joined: Sep 2010
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I'm a libertarian of the most demented and rabbid kind.
My personal view of government is that it is an evil to an end. To pretect the citizens from foreign and domestic enemies, to protect is from eachother (not ourselves), and to secure liberty.
To this end only should such an entity with power to take and force exist.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7 |
Quote:
Business Week reports his annual salary as $1,300,000.[4] Forbes Magazine ranks him at 296th in its 2009 Special Report on CEO Compensation.[5] His compensation was estimated at $3,241,042 by the FierceHealthcare newsletter.[6] According to bizjournals.com the country's highest-paid From wikipedia, "CEO, Stephen Hemsley, made $101.96 million in 2010.[7] In 2011 he was named the highest paid CEO by Forbes following a large gain in the value of his stock ownership. [8] In late 2011, Hemsley's most recent annual compensation was estimated by Forbes at $48.8 million."
I'm not defending high CEO salaries, but salaries and compensation are different numbers. Even CEOs that take $1 salary a year, cash in stock options for millions if the corporation does well or improves.
Who does he think he is, Michael Jordan or Oprah? After all, they have so much more responsibility and provide so much more to society.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1
Second Wind
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Second Wind
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1 |
Quote:
Quote:
Business Week reports his annual salary as $1,300,000.[4] Forbes Magazine ranks him at 296th in its 2009 Special Report on CEO Compensation.[5] His compensation was estimated at $3,241,042 by the FierceHealthcare newsletter.[6] According to bizjournals.com the country's highest-paid From wikipedia, "CEO, Stephen Hemsley, made $101.96 million in 2010.[7] In 2011 he was named the highest paid CEO by Forbes following a large gain in the value of his stock ownership. [8] In late 2011, Hemsley's most recent annual compensation was estimated by Forbes at $48.8 million."
I'm not defending high CEO salaries, but salaries and compensation are different numbers. Even CEOs that take $1 salary a year, cash in stock options for millions if the corporation does well or improves.
Who does he think he is, Michael Jordan or Oprah? After all, they have so much more responsibility and provide so much more to society.
Yea but they didnt deny a little girl leukemia treatments to keep money paid to them to cover the treatments to get their money.
Last edited by locopony; 07/10/2013 3:28 PM.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
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New Tires
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CEO salaries is a "look a Squirrel" issue. Of all the serious unconstitutional, bureaucracy run amok for political purposes, CEO salaries just don't register for me. Administrations not enforcing immigration laws, statutes passed by the peoples representatives and signed into law. It's unconstitutional to pick and choose which statutes to enforce. Read this study, http://cis.org/immigrant-gains-native-losses-in-the-job-market-2000-to-2013,Re Basically makes the point the all employment gains from 2000 to 2012 in the USA was to non native born citizens. Wonder why wages have stagnated for two decades? Read the IRS Inspector General reports, "30% of all IRS seizures are done illegally", IRS official claiming the 5th, ... It goes on and on, dept to department. Constitutional self governance my a-s.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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Yes sir, those are some very important issues.
Prosecution of those in charge of those IRS thefts is of the uttermost importance.
Stagnate employment numbers very important. The ACA may have a profound affect on that.
And there is an imigration bill on the table.
IRS reform, immigration reform, and jobs numbers, and the war on terrorism are the topics pf our day.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
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New Tires
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Call me cynical, ACA business mandate has been stalled till after the mid-term elections.
It's been announced that the war on terror is officially over.
Immigration reform?, we haven't enforced the last one. The citizens of this country need to decide if they want the present welfare state, if so, it's not congruent or sustainable with open borders.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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The new news is that O care maybe dead on arrival.
Now there are many parta of the immigration reform bill I think should be passed.
The IRS has broken public trust and should be dismanteled and most of them throw in prison in Guantanamo. And never allowed to come back.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Dec 2006
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New Tires
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New Tires
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Not to worry, immigration reform will be like ACA, we just have to pass it to find out what's in it. What could possibly go wrong? 
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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My jaw dropped and I couldn't believe what I was hearing when it was stated "We have to pass it to find out what's in it"! You can't make that stuff up.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Quote:
My jaw dropped and I couldn't believe what I was hearing when it was stated "We have to pass it to find out what's in it"! You can't make that stuff up.
Unfortunately, that's nothing new. It's been going on for years. She was just stupid enough to say it out loud. If the government would just read the constitution they've all sworn to uphold, and limit themselves to those things they've actually been granted the authority to do, none of this would happen. That includes The president, congress, the courts and both party's.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
Quote:
I'm a libertarian of the most demented and rabbid kind.
My personal view of government is that it is an evil to an end. To pretect the citizens from foreign and domestic enemies, to protect is from eachother (not ourselves), and to secure liberty.
To this end only should such an entity with power to take and force exist.
I heard someone comment that the only problem they had with libertarianism is every statement has to start "If only...".
It would all be so great "if only" everyone could blah, blah, blah.
No large society could function without the 'social' or 'group' or 'communal' stuff. However you want to label it. Gotta have roads, fire dept, hospitals, water system, sewers, schools, police, Coast Guard, air traffic control, satellites, EMS, the list is nearly endless and then where do you draw the line? Private prisons have been a disaster with judges getting paid off to keep the prisons full. Private schools...well, I won't go there. Lots of us have experienced private roads and who is gonna pay for what part of the road...that's a mess.
Someone recently asked 'would you rather have it run by government bureaucrats?'
Maybe. Probably. I'll take a $60,0000/year career whatever whose been doing the job for 15 years over a $12,000,000.00 mercenary MBA, who was running a completely different business last week, looking to score big and jump ship. But I digress...
Sometimes you can privatize things and it's not a total disaster...rarely...but you can't do it with the big stuff like highways. Even banks, though that ship has sailed. Check out the story of the North Dakota State Bank sometime.
There's a lot about libertarianism to like...I'm right there with you.
If only...
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
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New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
We can't build things like a highway system anymore, we don't have the cash flow to even pay our bills. We are easier to "govern' in a ham sandwich nation were everything is illegal and due process is based on the grace or politics of a bureaucrat. Where everyone is a financial client of the welfare state, beggars are always easy to please. Statism is how the world was governed prior to the American Revolution, we have retrograded since the election of Woodrow Wilson, the first "progressive" president. Read his writings, the Constitution is an impediment to the state power and therefore bad, the common man being stupid needs to be guided and governed by the elite and bureaucratic experts. I'm from the government and I'm here to help you. It's interesting that some believe that those employed in the public sector are somehow "the new man", without the same flaws all humans have.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
Quote:
We can't build things like a highway system anymore...
I think you are probably right. I don't think it's about the economics...at least not entirely. I just can't envision the common will necessary to pull it off.
I hope things change...or that I'm wrong. It's just very difficult for me to see enough agreement to a common goal in Washington to pull it off...regardless of where one thinks the blame lies.
Perhaps saddest of all might be that the only time we seem to be even close to being on the same page is when there is a war involved. That's a sad state of affairs.
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1
Second Wind
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Second Wind
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1 |
I dont think libertarians want to privatize everything. A good example is the infrastructure. Ya cant have private comoanies building road willy nilly as they please. In libertarianism schools are privatized which the public school is a mess. My personal thoughts on children is if they are yours take responsibility for them.
The Govco does serve a purpose just not regulate everything a person does and not to baby sit the irresponsible. And damn sure not to run other countries. Ours is hard enough for us to run.
When it comes to infrastructure you have delineate what is good for the whole of the public and what is serving a certain group. If its a corporate business interest let them build it. Example sports stadiums; I pisses me off that tax money paid for the new soccer stadium while police were being layed off. Police, firemen, and teachers lost their jobs but we can pay to go see soccer. Yahoo.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
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New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
"Ya cant have private comoanies building road willy nilly as they please" Government does, usually with graft and pork. "Bridge to nowhere"? It would be interesting to know how many turnpikes and highways were originally privately built and owned roads.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1
Second Wind
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Second Wind
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1 |
Roads require some city and state planning. Could you imagine if no pu lic roads were built only corporate roads and they restricted traffic to only their specific purpose. Now ya have to use some common sense. Should corporation build their own roads yes to an extent. Much like the refinery district over in Pasadena. Many of the roads are owned by the companies but they come to a public road . I could imagine shell building roads out and not allowing texaco to use them so right next to the shell road is a texaco road, and then beside that is the bp road, then the haliburton road. Yes corporation can be very juvenile. Then their own police policing them roads man what a mess that could be.
But a good example is shell oil road right here near my little world. Yes shell paid to build it with public subsidies so its a public road used by many.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
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New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
According to Gerald Gunderson's Privatization and the 19th-Century Turnpike, "In the first three decades of the 19th century Americans built more than 10,000 miles [16,000 km] of turnpikes, mostly in New England and the Middle Atlantic states. Relative to the economy at that time, this effort exceeded the post-World War II interstate highway system that present-day Americans assume had to be primarily planned and financed by the federal government".[1]
From wikipedia, "Private highways in the United States"
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: LIBERTY IS SO MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN SECURITY ..
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1
Second Wind
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Second Wind
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1 |
Thats very interesting. And good to know.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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