 Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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I am not so sure the Indian has to compete with HD or anybody else for that matter. If its good fit, finish, and drive line, it will sell. There are those with very deep pockets that simply will want one because most folks don't have one.
I don't think they will sell a lot of them. Maybe a few thousand. The advantage Polaris has is Indian is just one division, like Victory. Their real money is in the off road division. As long as Indian doesn't lose money for a few years they are happy just to have the logo for the street cred.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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However as Ron mentioned, anyone interested in getting one of the first issued of these babies will almost assuredly run into the standard practice that ALL dealerships pretty much adhere to, and that is whenever a sought-after new vehicle hits the market, they'll add all the available options to 'em and thus jacking up the price another 4 or 5 Grand, and then tell ya that if YOU don't want it, they have a long list of people who do, so "take it or leave it".
I'm not so sure about that.
Victory has done a good job of offering a basic machine with the option of adding the parts and accessories that you want - at a price of course. Sure, they sometimes also offer a "LE" model with all the bells and whistles, but the base model is usually readily available. I think Indian wants to make the point, that "see, we made a motorcycle under $20K"
Just my 2 cents on it. We shall see. 
Kevin - Luceo Non Uro
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Time will tell, but my guess a "starting" Chief will include a basic rider/passenger saddle and not much chrome. In black of course. Red will cost more.
The real added cost will come into play when you add saddle bags, passenger backrest, luggage rack, windscreen and chrome. But I don't know too many people riding big cruisers that don't add at least some of that to their machines anyway. I know I did.
In the grand scheme of things, $18,999 is not a ridiculous price for a new machine with 115 TQ. IMHO. 
I agree with everything you just said here, Kevin. $19K for this bike seems VERY reasonable to me.
However as Ron mentioned, anyone interested in getting one of the first issued of these babies will almost assuredly run into the standard practice that ALL dealerships pretty much adhere to, and that is whenever a sought-after new vehicle hits the market, they'll add all the available options to 'em and thus jacking up the price another 4 or 5 Grand, and then tell ya that if YOU don't want it, they have a long list of people who do, so "take it or leave it".
(...yep, kinda like what H-D dealerships did all those years there was a waiting list for their machines up until about 10 years ago now)
I've been watching the 2 local Victory dealership's response to the new Indian Re-Re-Resurrection and they do not seem to be excited (have not picked up the franchise). Here we are less than 3 months before the new Indian launch at Sturgis and the closest dealership acording to their locator is over 5 hours away. Don't know about riding over 5 hours to buy a bike and have no support for warranty, parts, service etc.
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
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2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
I've been watching the 2 local Victory dealership's response to the new Indian Re-Re-Resurrection and they do not seem to be excited (have not picked up the franchise). Here we are less than 3 months before the new Indian launch at Sturgis and the closest dealership acording to their locator is over 5 hours away. Don't know about riding over 5 hours to buy a bike and have no support for warranty, parts, service etc.
It'll be interesting to see how the Indian dealer network grows. Based on my conversations with Victory dealers, some of them would like to pick up Indian, but it's a big, and I mean BIG financial commitment.
Beyond that, most dealers are already stretched thin as far as floor space. One dealer told me they would like to sell Indians but they'd have to put up a new building first. That's a pretty tough row to hoe in any economy, much less in 2013.
You may see some free-standing dealers come along as the bikes are produced. It will take some time.
I'm lucky, I have an Indian dealer about 50 miles away and hope to throw him some bidniss just as soon as the Indians roll into his showroom.
Kevin - Luceo Non Uro
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Nobody will compete with Harley's present core market until they produce a big cruiser with a decent stereo system. I'm absolutely shocked that Triumph and Victory haven't entered this market and personally think they might even be a bit late to the dance at this point. The Road Glide and Street Glide are the bikes dominating the market and they'll continue to do so until someone steps up. The age of the average rider is increasing and old guys, like me, love these bikes. If Indian can produce a retro bike like the chief and simultainously enter the 21st century with something covering the modern amenities I believe that they can have some staying power. I'm shocked that Triumph hasn't offered a Thunderbird with a fairing with guages, stereo and maybe a coffee maker, (just kidding), I'd be interrested.
Strangler
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Quote:
Nobody will compete with Harley's present core market until they produce a big cruiser with a decent stereo system. I'm absolutely shocked that Triumph and Victory haven't entered this market and personally think they might even be a bit late to the dance at this point.
Paul, while I admit the only thing I know about the H-D Road Glide's stereo system is that Motorcyclist magazine mentioned how much they liked that bike's sound system in their recent comparison test between it and the new Honda F6B Gold Wing derivative, I have taken the Victory Cross Country for a demo ride and was quite impressed with its sound system. Plus, the storage capacity is a bit larger on the Victory Cross Country than on the Road Glide also.
And so, I'm not really sure why you included mentioning Victory in your statement here, as I believe at least that motorcycle company has your concern covered.
(...though I agree with your assessment that for the last few years, Bloor's boys have missed the opportunity to make the T-Bird into a viable full-on retro Touring Bagger alternative to these H-D and Victory offerings)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Dwight, the Cross Country is everything the HD whatever glides are. You are correct.
But HD does dominate the market in this type of cruiser. I just wonder how much longer.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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 Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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I caught some flak when I predicted the previous Indian revival would tank.
I'm not convinced about this one either. Better styling, even better engineering, it still amounts
to another company trying to make a living stealing some Hurley Doodleson customers away.
In this economy, there are fewer Hurley Doodleson customers to begin with.
It seems PolarIndians (Inuit?) are going to cost just as much.
The Japanese cruisers sell as they do because of the lower price.
Since Indian has come back from the dead so many times,
maybe they should come out with a model called the Zombie or the Jason.
I think, like before, a handful of people will buy one when they first come out, just to see what they're like.
Then comes the downward slide, the crash, the burn & we wait for the next revival.
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Quote:
I caught some flak when I predicted the previous Indian revival would tank.
REALLY, Brian? That's hard to believe. Ya see, I think almost everyone with a lick of motorcycle sense pretty much knew that the Gilroy Indian concern was doomed from the get-go.
Yep, especially after not only the fact that everyone with that lick of motorcycle sense knew that all those Gilroy Indians were were just Harley Evo cloned S&S motors bolted into a motorcycle with Indian valanced fenders, but even MORE especially because after the motojournalists of the world rode 'em, they had little good to say about 'em TOO!
And so, all I can say here about THAT is that those folks who gave you that flak didn't know sh*t from Shinola about motorcycles or the motorcycle business, and so I wouldn't have put all that much stock into what THOSE folks might've shot your way!!!  
BUT having said THAT, I think you're bein' a mite too hard on the chances of this Polaris venture's success, 'cause I have a feelin' that IF the motorcycle magazines' reviews are good to very good on this bike, then you're gonna see Polaris makin' these babies for a long long time, and even IF they're NOT a home run sales hit but just maybe a good solid hit double, because Polaris has the financial presence to keep throwin' money into Indian production for quite some time.
(...well, at least a heck of a lot longer than those underfunded folks in Gilroy were able to keep THEIR production goin', anyway!)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Paul, while I admit the only thing I know about the H-D Road Glide's stereo system is that Motorcyclist magazine mentioned how much they liked that bike's sound system in their recent comparison test between it and the new Honda F6B Gold Wing derivative, I have taken the Victory Cross Country for a demo ride and was quite impressed with its sound system. Plus, the storage capacity is a bit larger on the Victory Cross Country than on the Road Glide also.
And so, I'm not really sure why you included mentioning Victory in your statement here, as I believe at least that motorcycle company has your concern covered.
(...though I agree with your assessment that for the last few years, Bloor's boys have missed the opportunity to make the T-Bird into a viable full-on retro Touring Bagger alternative to these H-D and Victory offerings)
Actually the Harley stereo is nothing short of horrible but I install killer systems starting at $1000 and leaving the customer with $700 dollars of goods on ebay. Victory could compete but chooses to place spaceship styled bikes up against the industry standard. I think that the Cross Country may be getting there, but that whole Vision thing baffled me. The market was already there and trying to take it in a completely different direction wasn't happening. Victory shot themselves in the foot. Many Harley riders care little about storage space,some have me installing amps and subwoofers in the area that they have. I wouldn't do this to my own bike but that's where the market is. There is an entire aftermarket catering to Harley Baggers, I believe that they would make parts for some other company's version but so far nobody has stepped up. I'd love to see Indian enter that market since Triumph seems reluctant. Sadly, I think that the Thunderbird is the perfect platform for just the bike I envision.
Strangler
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Loquacious
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Victory could compete but chooses to place spaceship styled bikes up against the industry standard. I think that the Cross Country may be getting there, but that whole Vision thing baffled me. The market was already there and trying to take it in a completely different direction wasn't happening. Victory shot themselves in the foot. ...
Actually, as already discussed, Victory competes quite nicely in their segment. Not only is the Cross Country/Roads getting there, it has replaced the Vision as what is likely Victory's best-selling machine.
Despite the size and love it or not styling, the Vision is a rider's machine. It is the ultimate in comfort, has loads of power, and handles like nobody's business. It has won over some fairly hard core riders/bikers, not least of all Sonny Barger.
If you're content to pose next to an "industry standard", whatever the hell that means, to each his own. Personally, I like a cruising/touring machine with performance and the Vision fits that bill.
It also looks like with 115TQ the Indian could become the new "industry standard". 
Kevin - Luceo Non Uro
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Yeah, I don't know, I like my Victory and all 3 of my Triumphs but they're no Harleys. I've Got to say that with the large collection of bikes I have, nothing has come close yet to either my Street Glide or my Fat Boy. I love all my bikes but that's just the way it is. Since I build customs from the ground up, I get to see how every nut, bolt, washer and seal goes together, there's a reason Harley is # one. Trust me, I want to see someone else come up with "that bike", I'd love to buy another Indian and I'm looking for a reason to buy a Thunderbird, but I think you've figured that out by now. 
Strangler
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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...Also, Industry Standard is the model that outsells all others and that all others aspire to. In the end sales is the ultimate goal of any company public or private. It is probably cool to know that your company's name is the most popular tattoo in the world but sales is king. Incidently, my tattoo is the Triumph patent plate.
Strangler
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
...Also, Industry Standard is the model that outsells all others and that all others aspire to. ...
Really? I'd like to know where you got that definition.
By your definition, Bud Light would be the "industry standard" for beer. 
Kevin - Luceo Non Uro
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Quote:
Since Indian has come back from the dead so many times,
maybe they should come out with a model called the Zombie or the Jason.
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Quote:
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...Also, Industry Standard is the model that outsells all others and that all others aspire to. ...
Really? I'd like to know where you got that definition.
How about this definition from Wikipedia:
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Victory Motorcycles is an American motorcycle manufacturer based in Spirit Lake, Iowa, United States, which began production of its vehicles in 1998. Its parent company, Polaris Industries, created the firm following the modern success of Harley-Davidson.Victory's motorcycles are designed to compete directly with Harley-Davidson and similar American-style motorcycle brands, with V-twin engines and touring, sport-touring, and cruiser configurations.
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
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2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Following a business example doesn't make the example an industry standard.
In any event, "industry standard" has nothing to do with sales numbers.
Kevin - Luceo Non Uro
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
the Gilroy Indian concern was doomed from the get-go.
Sorry Dwight, you went back one Zombie-Indian generation too far. I was talking about the South Carolina version.
Anyway, the Polar-Indian Zombies are doomed.
Steelheart- '03 Speedmaster Black/Yellow
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Actually Brian, you're referring to the Kings Mountain NORTH Carolina production by the Stellican Limited group, which as you know were just a continuation of the last model "Power Plus"(basically still just an S&S bottom end motor with rounded cylinders and "Bottle Cap" valve covers) engine that were the Gilroy concern's last gasp measures.
And, I still say if this new Polaris-designed engine(which arguably resembles the classic Indian side-valve engines of yore more than our Hinckley-built Triumph engines do the Meriden-built Bonnies of yore) perform as well as they look(along with the rest of the bike), then Polaris might be makin' these babies for a long long time, as they appear to be a major step up and forward from either the Gilroy or the Kings Mountain offerings.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Following a business example doesn't make the example an industry standard.
In any event, "industry standard" has nothing to do with sales numbers.
Perhaps, but without a very successful Harley-Davidson "example" there would not have been a Victory Motorcycle Co. And without a sucessful Victory there may not have been the new Zombie Indian.
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Quote:
Quote:
Following a business example doesn't make the example an industry standard.
In any event, "industry standard" has nothing to do with sales numbers.
Perhaps, but without a very successful Harley-Davidson "example" there would not have been a Victory Motorcycle Co. And without a sucessful Victory there may not have been the new Zombie Indian.
Ah, I love it- Zombie Indian. I think that is just the coolest model name 
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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A "successful" HD example requires the govt bailing you out when you cant compete with quality, reliability or success of your competitors, Polaris hasnt been asking the govt to help it along with its business model.
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
Perhaps, but without a very successful Harley-Davidson "example" there would not have been a Victory Motorcycle Co. And without a sucessful Victory there may not have been the new Zombie Indian.
...so since Indian started making motorcycles - and v-twins - before HD, without a very successful Indian example there would not have been a HD.
Funny how things come full circle.
Kevin - Luceo Non Uro
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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A "successful" HD example requires the govt bailing you out when you cant compete with quality, reliability or success of your competitors, Polaris hasnt been asking the govt to help it along with its business model.
Are you talking about the tariff 30 years ago? The tariff that Harley-Davidson asked the government to remove early because the newly purchased and restructured company was succesful.
Or are you talking about the Japanese government's bailout for their industry with currency manipulation and other methods.
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
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2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Quote:
Quote:
Perhaps, but without a very successful Harley-Davidson "example" there would not have been a Victory Motorcycle Co. And without a sucessful Victory there may not have been the new Zombie Indian.
...so since Indian started making motorcycles - and v-twins - before HD, without a very successful Indian example there would not have been a HD.
Funny how things come full circle.
Indian Motorcycles and successful in the same sentence Nobody here is old enough to remember that!
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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...Also, Industry Standard is the model that outsells all others and that all others aspire to. ...
Really? I'd like to know where you got that definition.
By your definition, Bud Light would be the "industry standard" for beer.
Wrong, You're not paying attention, "All Others Aspire To" is the important part of the definition of Industry Standard. I was paying attention in college.
Strangler
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Honestly, I love Triumph motorcycles, they're are as cool as it gets. I love All American Motorcycles because they're American and I want these companies succede. I may catch some heat for this but, I have no use for any Japanese or Chinese bike but don't have any problem with the people who ride them. I like Ducatis, BMWs, Moto Guzzis, MV Agustas and anything with true soul. I love bikes and I love people who ride bikes, that's all. I'm an Economist, I sit at a desk and advise... but really, I'm a Biker and always will be, when I have more room, I'll have more bikes.
Strangler
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Quote:
A "successful" HD example requires the govt bailing you out when you cant compete with quality, reliability or success of your competitors, Polaris hasnt been asking the govt to help it along with its business model.
Don't forget that in the 70's when the US govt imposed tarrifs on imported bikes, those British and Japanease manufacturers were receiving huge govt stipends to support markets the govts were looking to gain competitive advantage in. While their bikes were of generally higher quality, (at least the Japanese ones), it was due in no small part to the govt investment in tooling and machinery in Honda that allowed them to dominate. That and Harley and Triumph were building peices of crap!
Strangler
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Fe Butt
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I wouldn't necessarily say that Triumph and Harley were "building pieces of crap" at that time, Paul, but I WOULD say that by the 1970s both of these concerns were building products that were at least 10 to 15 years "behind the times", anyway. If by the mid-60s Harley would have began development of the EVO motor and the BSA/Triumph concern would have began development of something along the line of these Hinckley Twins(neither of which would have been THAT "cutting-edge" at the time but still state-of-the-art, as Honda already had their DOHC CB450 in production by then), then I doubt these companies would have had to experience the dark days that they did and which would begin less than a decade later. You might know of the last gasp and much too late and ill-fated effort of the BSA/Triumph company to develop the BSA Fury/Triumph Bandit DOHC 350cc twin-cylinder models, and which due to the falling sales figures of this company's product by the late-60s, created an environment within the company of shoestring R&D financing in order to bring this much needed updating of their product to market. Yep, it was just a case of piss poor product planning, if ya ask me! (...btw Kevin..please accept this "Keyboard Captain of Industry's" apologies for the use of that "piss poor product planning" alliterative phraseology there!) 
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Loquacious
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Quote:
(...btw Kevin..please accept this "Keyboard Captain of Industry's" apologies for the use of that "piss poor product planning" alliterative phraseology there!)
Dwight, you're "grandfathered" in for the use of KCOI language.
Kevin - Luceo Non Uro
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Ah, I love it- Zombie Indian. I think that is just the coolest model name
How about The Wendigo Model. 
~Brent
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Dwight, I only referred to the Triumphs and Harleys of the 70s as pieces of crap because the only way they could get them not to leak oil all over the showroom floor was to wait to fill them until predelivery. I hate oil leaks with a passion. 
Strangler
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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I take it back about Victory, I took a Cross Country for a ride last night and loved it. A friend of mine has one so I let him take my Street Glide and I took his Victory. I gotta say each of us was grinning after a 20 mile ride. I would buy one of those. I wouldn't trade my Harley but I never let go of a bike anyway. What's one more at this point. It looks like I'll be putting a stereo system in for him though.
Strangler
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Fe Butt
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,243 Likes: 64 |
People used to tell me all the time that my bike was leaking oil and I always replied that I would be worried if it wasn't since that meant there was no oil in it. Now both my 66 and my 69 never leaked oil except what came out of the breather onto the chain.I have to say Triumph made some design changes in 72 that were not good ideas and more prone to failure. The trans cam plate (done in 71 if I remember) was a stamped steel plate instead of the machined one and they went to push in headers that just pushed into the aluminum head and tended to wear the exhaust ports out.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,623 Likes: 2
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,623 Likes: 2 |
Quote:
I take it back about Victory, I took a Cross Country for a ride last night and loved it.
Kevin - Luceo Non Uro
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 688
Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 688 |
Quote:
Quote:
I take it back about Victory, I took a Cross Country for a ride last night and loved it.
Like the morning after, sure you had fun...but that doesn't mean you want to marry it.
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 11,126 Likes: 13
Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 11,126 Likes: 13 |
The Cross Country was the first victory throttle I've twisted. In light of those that have enjoyed said experience, suffice it to say that my review would not comport with those who are enamored with Iowa iron. That said, Iowa iron rules over Milwaukee/Pennsylvania iron.
Hurrah to Polaris for resurrecting the Indian(s).
Blowing gravel off rural roads
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,937
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,937 |
And you may see me tonight
With an illegal smile
J. Prine
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,243 Likes: 64
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,243 Likes: 64 |
Great vid and sweet looking engine. I like that they don't use the split con rod like HD but rather offset the cyl.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,623 Likes: 2
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,623 Likes: 2 |
For all you fence sitters, the prices on the 2013 Chief LE model is being reduced from $37K to $25K. INDIAN HERE But really, who wants a 2013 Indian knowing what the 2014 will be?
Last edited by Speedmaster05; 06/02/2013 7:20 AM.
Kevin - Luceo Non Uro
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