 Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Apr 2008
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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The automatic pin setter was their crowning achievement...
Not sure I TOTALLY agree, BUT THAT'S FUNNY! 
And you may see me tonight
With an illegal smile
J. Prine
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
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I hope they ALL continue to survive and sell.
I sure as he11 DON'T want EVERYONE on an America! 
Eeh! The way I figure it erle, you'll only have to START worryin' about THAT at about the same time you'll STOP hearin'.."Wow! When did they start makin' Triumphs again?"!!! 
Yaknow Dwight I really have not heard that for a few years now.
Well Ron, then I guess erle better start worryin' then, huh! 
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Jan 2006
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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I am really not kidding. In 2005 it was an everyday thing when I got the America. I don't remember the last time anybody asked that. They have also stopped fawning over the Triumphs at the bike nights unless it is a Thunderbird. People really like that motorcycle.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Yep Ron, actually you make a good point here. I have to admit that while I'm STILL gettin' whole lot of guys comin' up to me and sayin' stuff like, "That's one of those new Triumphs, isn't it?", AND/OR of course, "Wow, I used to have a Triumph back in the day!", I'm NOW gettin' a whole lot LESS of "Wow, when did they start makin' Triumphs again?". Yep, I guess the word has FINALLY gotten out after EIGHTEEN freakin' YEARS of 'em bein' back in the Good Ol' U.S. of A, HUH???!!!  (...and so NOW I suppose it'll be the customers of these new INDIAN motorsickles who'll start hearin' that whole "When did they start makin'" thing every freakin' time they pull into a gas station, HUH???!!!...But I sure hope for Polaris' sake that THAT doesn't go on for EIGHTEEN freakin' YEARS for them TOO!!!!!)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Nov 2011
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Adjunct
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Adjunct
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The idea of Japan protecting its industry with tariffs is silly. Why did it cost Harley 100% more to make a bike than Honda even after Honda shipped it, paid import duties and had to maintain a parts stream over 1000s of miles? Honda put them all on the ropes, not from tariffs but from technology and price point.
You seriously need to research that subject, and study up on a thing called currency manipulation.
Harley and Triumph failed to invest in modern manufacturing and tooling to improve the quality of the bikes through the years...and it cost them. They were arrogant and short-sighted. Ironically Japan after being bombed to dust in WW2 was given every advantage to rebuild in the 1950's and '60s and once on their feet had brand new modern factories. With no laurels to rest on they had everything to gain and nothing to loose going in new, different directions (like overhead cams etc).
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Yep, excellent point, OB.
And Ron, I think your point is well taken also, however don't forget that the Japanese government, with the rationale of high gasoline prices and low availability there, has for years had an extremely high registration tax levied within their country on any motorcycles over the 750cc displacement(and which H-D only produces), and which in effect could be considered a "protective tariff".
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Jan 2006
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
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The idea of Japan protecting its industry with tariffs is silly. Why did it cost Harley 100% more to make a bike than Honda even after Honda shipped it, paid import duties and had to maintain a parts stream over 1000s of miles? Honda put them all on the ropes, not from tariffs but from technology and price point.
You seriously need to research that subject, and study up on a thing called currency manipulation.
Harley and Triumph failed to invest in modern manufacturing and tooling to improve the quality of the bikes through the years...and it cost them. They were arrogant and short-sighted. Ironically Japan after being bombed to dust in WW2 was given every advantage to rebuild in the 1950's and '60s and once on their feet had brand new modern factories. With no laurels to rest on they had everything to gain and nothing to loose going in new, different directions (like overhead cams etc).
I am not talking about Currency manipulation by Japan or heavy tariff issues for HD in Japan. I am talking about Honda motorcycles being bought in the U.S.
We need to remember that Honda gave people technology they wanted and needed while others ignored the market needs. Honda was not an upstart. They built about 10 million motorcycles prior to 1970. Anybody in the 50s or 60s in the motorcycle business saw the threat. They were just too arrogant to react to it. The British and Americans could compete easily if they wanted to compete. They didn't see the need. After all nobody will ever buy a rice burner here.
The hegemonic status of the U.S. after the war created a western arrogance that their industry was invincible. They were stupid people and it cost them an industry.
Import duties at the time were and are now in the U.S. tied to competition and need. Had HD gone under Honda would have seen serious import duties at the U.S. ports.
Yugo was really cheap with nearly slave labor prices to build them, it did not conquer the car markets in the U.S. Superior technology did and again the fat cats failed to see the market trends or needs.
The Japanese didn't just build it for less, they built it well. When I visit my brother I still look at my CB1000C and am amazed at the power and technology they had 30 years ago. A 30 year old bike as fast as a 2013 V-Rod. That is amazing. Especially considering it as slow compared to V-Max and V-65.
We can't say that Triumph and Harley had traditional needs not to change or they would go under so they decided to go under by not changing. Triumph had record high production numbers in the 60s. They were making money. Til the U.S. met the nicest people on a Honda.
Now I forget what I was talking about. Oh! no that isn't it 
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Nov 2011
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Adjunct
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Adjunct
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The Honda CB1000C was only built for 1 year 1983 and they made 89 horsepower. The V-rod makes 122 HP. I do like those old Honda air cooled in-line 4 SJMs though. The legendary CB750 which built the SJMs reputation made 68 HP.
Today Honda builds 3 lines of V-twin cruisers, wonder why techno-marvel Honda copied the clearly inferior American V-twin. If I want a dirt bike I'll get a Honda. If I want a motorcycle as fat and luxurious as a car I'll get a Goldwing. But I dont. And I don't want a Japanese copy of a classic American cruiser either.
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Jan 2006
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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I know what year it was built, I bought new in 1983. Ok they both run the 1/4 in the 11s.
I didn't know the CTX700 and the CB1100 were V-twins.
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Nov 2011
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Adjunct
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Adjunct
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They aren't, Honda lists the new CB1100 in their {sport} section...then again they list their 250cc Rebel in the (cruiser) section.
I was referring to their Harley-copy Shadow, their Victory-copy 1300 Custom line and their chopper-like Fury...all V-twin powered.
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Jan 2006
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
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I don't intend to buy one either.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 69
Member
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Member
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 69 |
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I see what Ron is saying and agree for the most part. Indian will never feel like Indian to me again no matter what they do because the old company is long dead so now it is only a name no matter what you do. No real heritage. Triumph is and always was Triumph, HD is and always was HD, Honda is and always was Honda. The new Indian is going to be a cool bike I think ,but never a real Indian. I will be a Polaris knock off, probably well made and dependable and I love the look of the new engine but to me you could call it a Polaris and it would be just as cool.
So No one else has ever made HDs...no bowling balls in the 70s? Triumph is still in the same factory they started in? same people running it?....everything evolves...its up to polaris to keep the same lines and styling of the Indian...if they do, i think theyll have a winner.
I see all the Vic hatters on the HD site...(Dont even say the word Victory over there)never would have thought there were a bunch of schoolgirls here also..my bike is better than yours! NO! mine is better...yours sucks. NA uh you are but what am i, lets not talk to her anymore...Yup a bunch of Nancys...I have all 3 brands...love em all..have more fun and the best rides on the Vic...sorry to hurt anyones feelings haha 
Last edited by Milomag; 04/09/2013 8:26 PM.
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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I agree but Indian was completely gone and out of business for quite a while making 0 units. Triumph made limited numbers but did make them as the company was restructured and retooled in a new factory. I wonder if Honda has moved and gone through anything like Triumph and HD at any point in their history. I am not up on Jap bikes as they were always something to toss on the bon fire when someone rode one in.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
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I wonder if Honda has moved and gone through anything like Triumph and HD at any point in their history.
Nope Ian, not as far as I know. Nope, not since one of the most far-sighted gentleman in industrial history by the name of Soichiro Honda started up his company in 1947, anyway.
(...well, that IS unless you don't count the idea that Soichiro was SO successful that he eventually would have enough money to "restructure" his company and ALSO begin the process of making a very successful line of CARS TOO...and WHICH I suppose if one was ever of the mind to, they COULD throw his cars on that freakin' bonfire of yours TOO...though I have NO idea why ANYBODY would ever WANT TO!!!!)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
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So No one else has ever made HDs...no bowling balls in the 70s? Triumph is still in the same factory they started in? same people running it?....everything evolves...its up to polaris to keep the same lines and styling of the Indian...if they do, i think theyll have a winner.
And I agree with you here Milo, though WITH the caveat(as had been mentioned by a few others already in this thread) that their success with depend upon their price point and how competitively that will be with H-D in that regard. Because, Triumph's successful return to the market has been strongly influenced by their philosophy of "building to a price", and these prices have always been very competitive against the Japanese, German, and Italian built offerings, to say nothing of the bikes built on OUR shores.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: May 2007
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: May 2007
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I I wonder if Honda has moved and gone through anything like Triumph and HD at any point in their history. I am not up on Jap bikes as they were always something to toss on the bon fire when someone rode one in.
I can't speak to Japan but for the longest time Goldwings were built in Marysville, Ohio. They moved back overseas in 09 or 10 for reasons I don't remember.
Too bad about tossing them in the fire because many of them are quite good and a few are superior to any offering from Europe or our own country.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Jan 2006
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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I think they will sell bikes. I don't see large numbers being sold. Milo, this is a Triumph site. Its not different from any other site. Lots of branded people.
You do know I own Victory too?
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Too bad about tossing them in the fire because many of them are quite good and a few are superior to any offering from Europe or our own country.
I know, we were drunk rowdy bikers in a gang mentality and anyone who drove one in got kicked off it and we burned it. Not proud of it but it happened. I never understood why the Japs too the brunt of that but BMW or Zundapp was OK. On the up side the showers were just pipes sticking up out of the ground and we made a day of it watching the women shower.
EDIT: Now that I think about it, I scrapped so many Jap bikes over the years while towing I can't begin to count them. Some good bikes too. They weren't British, German, or US made so they were scrap iron and aluminum to me at the time. I had a friend who did that with about a dozen Triumph engines! I didn't know he was going to do that or I would have given him twice scrap value for the whole units.
Last edited by The_Dog33; 04/10/2013 9:50 AM.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Apr 2006
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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You do know I own Victory too?
Me too, have I mentioned I own a Victory or two?  
It's all good, a little brand rivalry between friends is healthy. If you can't appreciate other brands or ride with other brands, you're going to miss out on good times. 
Kevin - Luceo Non Uro
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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One thing I scrapped I wish I had not is a 1946 Allstate Moped that was all there and in great shape. (guessing at the 1946 it was 40 something but I think 46)
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: May 2007
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: May 2007
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Quote:
I never understood why the Japs too the brunt of that but BMW or Zundapp was OK.
I suspect Pearl Harbor resentment plays a big part in that. After all, my neighbors haven't let go of Sherman so I can't expect some folks to let that sneak attack fade into history even though we are on the third generation since.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,937
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Apr 2008
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Quote:
One thing I scrapped I wish I had not is a 1946 Allstate Moped that was all there and in great shape. (guessing at the 1946 it was 40 something but I think 46)
I wouldn't give it too much thought.
After sitting outside for another couple decades, next to other triumphs, BMW's, etc., it probably wouldn't be worth restoring. 
And you may see me tonight
With an illegal smile
J. Prine
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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It never sat outside, it was in the barn and non e of my bikes sit outside except a couple Japs that I don't care about. 15 of my Brit bikes are in what is supposed to be my dining room. The rest in sheds and garage.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Saddle Sore
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OP
Saddle Sore
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It never sat outside, it was in the barn and non e of my bikes sit outside except a couple Japs that I don't care about. 15 of my Brit bikes are in what is supposed to be my dining room. The rest in sheds and garage.
Dog don't tell me you've left those 70 era Suzuki triples sitting outside.That would be a shame. Seems you had a couple water buffaloes and a 550. And it seems you have quite the collection. I thought about seeing what you wanted for those Triples a couple of times.
I'd love to see some pics of those old Suzys as well as some of those brits.
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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The 750 is buried in a shed under a bunch of junk, the 550 I traded even up for my Norton and the 2 380s have been sitting outside for a very long time. I robbed parts off the 380s over the years for projects, not even sure what's left of them out there. They both ran back when I got them. Last I played with the 750 all it needed was new points to run.I would let all 3 go, not sure the condition of the 750 anymore but I had sandblasted the frame and redid most of the bike. But that was a long time ago. Maybe $1,000 for the 3. The 380s are mostly there, I took the forks off one for a chopper project not sure the condition of the pipes and wheels after all this time and I would imagine the rings are stuck by now.
Some of my bikes are pictured in my photobucket acct linked in my signature.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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I'll make it easier the old ones I have pix of are here.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Saddle Sore
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OP
Saddle Sore
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I didn't see the triples anywhere in the pics, the 550 triple has always been my choice of Suzys.
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Never took any of any of those bikes. The 550 I rode the wheels off of. Kind of funny, I always kind of regretted trading it away.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,937
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Apr 2008
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Quote:
"...the 2 380s have been sitting outside for a very long time. I robbed parts off the 380s over the years for projects, not even sure what's left of them out there."
"The 380s are mostly there,"
"I took the forks off one for a chopper project..."
Obviously, a picture WOULD be needed. 
Didn't you post a pic of a tree consuming a motorcycle?
Riding with the guys from Cafe-Moto has me lookin' at the H1 I have, that is also the bike that's in the WORST condition.
What to do, what to do!??
And you may see me tonight
With an illegal smile
J. Prine
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,243 Likes: 64
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
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The really long low bike I have in my "old stuff" section that I have stages pictured. The one with the std type front end not the really long girder. That bike has the 380 front end on it. That is a hardtail I made with part of a 60s frame welded in for the rear engine mounts and the front section is a late 50s frame section that was hopelessly bent and the neck is cut and raked. I was bored one summer and decided to see what I could throw together out of my parts pile. The engine is a 67 Bonnie .50 over.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Apr 2006
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Indian released the following today, along with a profile of the new Chief.
"The all-new 2014 Indian Chief, starting at $18,999 will be revealed at the 73rd annual Sturgis Motorcycle Rally in Sturgis, South Dakota, which runs August 5-11, 2013. Specific details on the launch timing will be announced this summer. The Sturgis Motorcycle Rally, the world's largest motorcycle rally, was started in 1936 by an Indian Motorcycle club, the Jackpine Gypsies. Indian Motorcycle is honored to be back in the motorcycle community and make the brand’s launch part of the Sturgis experience."
Kevin - Luceo Non Uro
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964
Stickman Yogi
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Stickman Yogi
Joined: Mar 2009
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Quote:
Indian released the following today, along with a profile of the new Chief.
"The all-new 2014 Indian Chief, starting at $18,999 will be revealed at the 73rd annual Sturgis Motorcycle Rally in Sturgis, South Dakota, which runs August 5-11, 2013. Specific details on the launch timing will be announced this summer. The Sturgis Motorcycle Rally, the world's largest motorcycle rally, was started in 1936 by an Indian Motorcycle club, the Jackpine Gypsies. Indian Motorcycle is honored to be back in the motorcycle community and make the brand’s launch part of the Sturgis experience."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhDvAqLeE8E
Live to love, love to live.
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Jan 2006
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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I wonder what the starting at means?
I bet you will never leave a dealer with one of these under 22k.
They can't be the same out the door as the Cross Roads and Cross Country or they compete against themselves.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Saddle Sore
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OP
Saddle Sore
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Do you suppose the new Indian would be a direct comparison to say the HD Road King or the Victory Cross Roads Classic? If so it's still priced too high. IMHO.
Suppose we'll need to see what $18,999 will getcha!
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Time will tell, but my guess a "starting" Chief will include a basic rider/passenger saddle and not much chrome. In black of course. Red will cost more. The real added cost will come into play when you add saddle bags, passenger backrest, luggage rack, windscreen and chrome. But I don't know too many people riding big cruisers that don't add at least some of that to their machines anyway. I know I did. In the grand scheme of things, $18,999 is not a ridiculous price for a new machine with 115 TQ. IMHO.
Kevin - Luceo Non Uro
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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PS... I gotta laugh at some of youse guys. Indian brought the starting price of the 2014 Chief down to $18,999 from the 2013 price of $26,499, and you're STILL not happy?  
Kevin - Luceo Non Uro
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Saddle Sore
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OP
Saddle Sore
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Quote:
PS...
I gotta laugh at some of youse guys.
Indian brought the starting price of the 2014 Chief down to $18,999 from the 2013 price of $26,499, and you're STILL not happy?
Nope, you're right I'm still not happy. Of course $26,499 closer to $30,000 was so ridiculous that company is OUT of the motorcycle bizz. It would seem to me that POLARIS has such deep pockets as we've been reminded on many occasions they would bring the price in under the direct competition by at least a grand. Now that would make some serious noise.
Again we'll need to see what they unveil at the "leather fest" later this year.
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Quote:
Time will tell, but my guess a "starting" Chief will include a basic rider/passenger saddle and not much chrome. In black of course. Red will cost more.
The real added cost will come into play when you add saddle bags, passenger backrest, luggage rack, windscreen and chrome. But I don't know too many people riding big cruisers that don't add at least some of that to their machines anyway. I know I did.
In the grand scheme of things, $18,999 is not a ridiculous price for a new machine with 115 TQ. IMHO.
I agree with everything you just said here, Kevin. $19K for this bike seems VERY reasonable to me.
However as Ron mentioned, anyone interested in getting one of the first issued of these babies will almost assuredly run into the standard practice that ALL dealerships pretty much adhere to, and that is whenever a sought-after new vehicle hits the market, they'll add all the available options to 'em and thus jacking up the price another 4 or 5 Grand, and then tell ya that if YOU don't want it, they have a long list of people who do, so "take it or leave it".
(...yep, kinda like what H-D dealerships did all those years there was a waiting list for their machines up until about 10 years ago now)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 490
Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 490 |
19k will put HD on it's butt if this motor proves to be as solid as the Victory's. I think comparing a Victory touring rider with a potential Indian client is off the mark. I agree with Dwight and Mark, this is the first bike that I have actually been excited to see revealed in the last decade.
Ride like you mean it.
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Re: New Indian Powerplant
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Quote:
...this is the first bike that I have actually been excited to see revealed in the last decade.
In my case Jerry, it's actually the second bike I've been excited about its reveal in the last decade. The first ones were the new Norton 961s that Brit Stuart Garner took over from Oregonian Kenny Dreer some years back. I love the look the new engine, and the whole bike for that matter.
However, and unfortunately, I have a feeling that just like the ill-fated Gilroy Indian venture and just as Kenny Dreer's Norton venture proved(and as has been mentioned a number of times in this thread already), these sorts of "resurrections" of old motorcycle marques need very deep pockets in order to succeed, and I don't think Stuart Garner is close to being in the same league financially as is John Bloor, let alone Polaris Industries.
And thus I give little hope for Norton's resurrection to succeed, and especially as it appears that Garner's venture has been dragging its feet for some time now over there in Ol' Blighty.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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