 Consequences for Your Actions
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Re: Consequences for Your Actions
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Oil Expert
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Re: Consequences for Your Actions
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Too old to die young, too ugly to leave a good looking corpse
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Re: Consequences for Your Actions
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Quote:
I've got no pity for her
"Stone apologized through her father, Peter Stone, according to a Washington, D.C., TV station."
I agree with you as the apology never even came from her...absolutely zero pity and she deserved what she got
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Re: Consequences for Your Actions
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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No pity here for her either disrespect at the tomb of the unknowns is about as bad is it gets in my book.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Consequences for Your Actions
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Joined: Jul 2007
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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Sign of the times. Everything is a joke and nothing is to be revered.
Fidelis et Fortis
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Re: Consequences for Your Actions
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Quote:
Sign of the times. Everything is a joke and nothing is to be revered.
That was my first thought but the backlash she received to include losing her job...it is still revered. There will always be the few fooktards out there regardless what year it is
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Re: Consequences for Your Actions
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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"Despite all the amputation, you could dance to a rock 'n roll station..."
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Re: Consequences for Your Actions
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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In today's world when we have people willing AND eager to sign a contract waiver in order to allow late night talk show hosts to show on network television how ignorant they are(think: "Jay Walking" here), something like THIS doesn't surprise me in the LEAST anymore...unfortunately.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Consequences for Your Actions
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New Tires
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"The times they are a changing", Lindsey Stone had her Jane Fonda moment, unfortunately for Lindsey she's not Jame Fonda. 
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Consequences for Your Actions
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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What she did is stupid, but I have to fall back to the ole 1st amendment and say freedom of speech. Its not there to protect speech we all agree with, but that which we find abhorrent.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: Consequences for Your Actions
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I guess it is her right to act irresponsibly without any class or respect to herself and others but it is also the right of the others around her to shun her actions to include the loss of her employment...hence the title of this thread...consequences for your actions. I am thankful she is in a country that sees the value of this...of both her right to "petition" (which is a stretch to use that word in that manner) and also the right to have what happened to her. She had every right to actively voice her position how she did and now she can deal with the results of those actions.
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Re: Consequences for Your Actions
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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I dont think you can fire a person for exercising their rights. It would be the same as firing a person for having different politcal or religious views. I do believe that is against the law.
Last edited by locopony; 11/23/2012 7:01 PM.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: Consequences for Your Actions
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Oil Expert
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Quote:
I guess it is her right to act irresponsibly without any class or respect to herself and others but it is also the right of the others around her to shun her actions to include the loss of her employment...hence the title of this thread...consequences for your actions. I am thankful she is in a country that sees the value of this...of both her right to "petition" (which is a stretch to use that word in that manner) and also the right to have what happened to her. She had every right to actively voice her position how she did and now she can deal with the results of those actions.
Chad mentioned 'freedom of speech' but no one seems to understand that it is only freedom from government tyranny. There nothing in the Constitution to protect an individual from retribution for their speech from non governmental entities.
Nothing.
The government can't shut down your speech but your boss can do any damn thing they want. Nothing in the Constitution to protect you from that.
Don't expect 'freedom of speech' to protect you from anyone except Uncle Sam.
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Re: Consequences for Your Actions
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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Due process protection requires that employees have a fair procedural process before they are terminated if the termination is related to a "liberty", like the right to free speech, or a property interest.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: Consequences for Your Actions
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Quote:
Due process protection requires that employees have a fair procedural process before they are terminated if the termination is related to a "liberty", like the right to free speech, or a property interest.
That's right, but those are all state statutes and most, if not all, states have such laws (generally labor laws pushed through by...you guessed it...the unions) requiring due process hearings.
The First Amendment is only about government restriction of speech. That's it. Government restriction. Nobody else. You could never file a case claiming a Constitutional rights violation because there isn't one.
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Re: Consequences for Your Actions
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New Tires
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Quote:
Quote:
I guess it is her right to act irresponsibly without any class or respect to herself and others but it is also the right of the others around her to shun her actions to include the loss of her employment...hence the title of this thread...consequences for your actions. I am thankful she is in a country that sees the value of this...of both her right to "petition" (which is a stretch to use that word in that manner) and also the right to have what happened to her. She had every right to actively voice her position how she did and now she can deal with the results of those actions.
Chad mentioned 'freedom of speech' but no one seems to understand that it is only freedom from government tyranny. There nothing in the Constitution to protect an individual from retribution for their speech from non governmental entities.
Nothing.
The government can't shut down your speech but your boss can do any damn thing they want. Nothing in the Constitution to protect you from that.
Don't expect 'freedom of speech' to protect you from anyone except Uncle Sam.
You are right constitutionally to some degree, but my guess is that Lindsey's employer would be liable for firing her had she not been on company business when the photos were taken by another employee. Besides the Constitution there are all kinds of statutory and civil remedies protecting employ speech. There is a reason many contracts have morals , behavior and speech clauses. It's away around these laws.
Truth is if the feds want you they got you, Constitution or not.  That's probably true of employers too.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Consequences for Your Actions
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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Novosel v. Nationwide Insurance Co.
The U.S. Court of Appeals found that Novosel had stated a valid claim for wrongful discharge and remanded the case for trial. In passing, the Court of Appeals said:
Although Novosel is not a government employee, the public employee cases do not confine themselves to the narrow question of state action. Rather, these cases suggest that an important public policy is in fact implicated wherever the power to hire and fire is utilized to dictate the terms of employee political activities. In dealing with public employees, the cause of action arises directly from the Constitution rather than from common law developments. The protection of important political freedoms, however, goes well beyond the question whether the threat comes from state or private bodies.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: Consequences for Your Actions
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Quote:
Novosel v. Nationwide Insurance Co.
The U.S. Court of Appeals found that Novosel had stated a valid claim for wrongful discharge and remanded the case for trial. In passing, the Court of Appeals said:
Although Novosel is not a government employee, the public employee cases do not confine themselves to the narrow question of state action. Rather, these cases suggest that an important public policy is in fact implicated wherever the power to hire and fire is utilized to dictate the terms of employee political activities. In dealing with public employees, the cause of action arises directly from the Constitution rather than from common law developments. The protection of important political freedoms, however, goes well beyond the question whether the threat comes from state or private bodies.
This example is a stretch at best in this situation:
"The allegations of the complaint charge that the sole reason for Novosel's discharge was his refusal to participate in the lobbying effort and his privately stated opposition to the company's political stand. Novosel contends that the discharge for refusing to lobby the state legislature on the employer's behalf constituted the tort of wrongful discharge on the grounds it was willful, arbitrary, malicious and in bad faith, and that it was contrary to public policy. Alternatively, the complaint avers a breach of an implied contract promising continued long-term employment so long as Novosel's job performance remained satisfactory. Novosel sought damages, reinstatement and declaratory relief. Nationwide did not file an answer to the complaint; instead it presented a motion to dismiss. Following the submission of briefs on the motion to dismiss, and without benefit of either affidavits or oral argument, the district court granted the motion on January 14, 1983"
In other words, Nationwide fired on the grounds that Novosel did not perform a certain action set forth by the company. This isn't even the same ballpark as an employee doing something on her own free time that could bring embarrassment to her employer because of her actions. This is a far reach.
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Re: Consequences for Your Actions
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Crazyhorse, you and I are starting to sound like a couple of jailhouse lawyers.  I'll add Trumpeteer to that. We could open a law firm, CrazyHorse,Tumpeteer & Mac
Last edited by MACMC; 11/23/2012 7:53 PM.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Consequences for Your Actions
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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Read the findings rather than the case. freedom of political speech was up held as I quoted above.
"The protection of important political freedoms, however, goes well beyond the question whether the threat comes from state or private bodies."
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: Consequences for Your Actions
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I have read the case and the grounds of that decision was based on an employer trying to force an employee to take a political stand within their hired position. What you are trying to argue would result in someone not being able to have their position terminated over their action that could cause negative impact to their employer. For example, General Petraeus would have legal grounds to be let go regardless what his actions brings to his position. Of course, this isn't even bringing in the fact that this person resigned and her position was not terminated
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Re: Consequences for Your Actions
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Petraeus served at the pleasure of the President, political appointees never have recourse to firing.
My understanding was that the women in question was working when the photos were taken.
"The photo was taken at a national historic site in October by a fellow employee during a trip to Washington, D.C. attended by 40 residents and eight staff."
In the case CraztHorse sited I was under the impression that part of the job description in question was lobbying. He refused to lobby.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Consequences for Your Actions
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They were on a business trip to DC but were on their own "downtime" when the event took place. The photo was taken by a fellow co-worker. Still doesn't change the key ingredient that she resigned from her position.
I read that Novosel was a regional manager for an insurance company and was released because of his refusal to lobby AND Novosel's privately stated opposition to the company's political stand. Stone had no opposition to her employer before this event and her resignation solely revolved around her personal actions at the specific event
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Re: Consequences for Your Actions
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Thanks for clearing that up. The articles I read last week were ambiguous. 
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Consequences for Your Actions
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Member
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Member
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Another disrespectful person looking for attention. It seems they received the attention they deserved.
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Re: Consequences for Your Actions
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Old Hand
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Old Hand
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Quote:
What she did is stupid, but I have to fall back to the ole 1st amendment and say freedom of speech. Its not there to protect speech we all agree with, but that which we find abhorrent.
There is a difference in speaking and making an ass of yourself.
Let's hope there's intelligent life somewhere in space 'cause it's buggar all down here. -- Monte Python
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Re: Consequences for Your Actions
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New Tires
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Quote:
Quote:
What she did is stupid, but I have to fall back to the ole 1st amendment and say freedom of speech. Its not there to protect speech we all agree with, but that which we find abhorrent.
There is a difference in speaking and making an ass of yourself.
Well, except in my case. 
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Consequences for Your Actions
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
What she did is stupid, but I have to fall back to the ole 1st amendment and say freedom of speech. Its not there to protect speech we all agree with, but that which we find abhorrent.
There is a difference in speaking and making an ass of yourself.
Well, except in my case.
I am able to do both at the same time!
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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