 Re: Twinkies
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The factory was taking severe cuts to accommodate the changes needed to stay competitive. It even got to the point that there was a period of time that workers weren't even paid. According to John Rosamond's book, Save the Triumph Bonneville, there was a butting of heads of infrastructure updating in the sixties...a good decade before the Japanese started dominating the market. They were still building bikes on an infrastructure designed and initiated by Ted Turner! I don't buy that the revenue wasn't originally there as bikes from the '37 Speed Twin, '57 T'Bird and '59 Bonnie would say otherwise for the company in sales. Triumph's biggest problem is they sat on their a$$ when the company was booming and didn't re-invest. It is hard to get back into the game when everything you have is outdated and your competitor is already in 5th gear and sending products to the market. The coffin was already shut at that point.
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Re: Twinkies
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I've been boycotting wally world for a very long time. Ian used to think it was funny when I would talk about it but now he sees the truth. 
No I still think it's funny. They don't even know you aren't there. Just my store alone profits over $150,000,000 a year. I find the few that boycott funny.
Dog, you must work in a very busy store. The average Net Sales of a store is less than $100,000,000 including Super Stores. My guess is the 150,000,000 Net Sales and operating cost haven't been deducted. That's still an ass kick number. 
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Twinkies
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Our store is very busy and a training store, we also have a tire and lube that many don't. I will check but I am pretty sure that was after operating costs were deducted. Our store is always very busy, hard to walk through at many times due to the crowded sales floor.
gets me angry when I think about it, with numbers like that you would think they could staff correctly and increase that number instead of cutting hours and causing customers to leave in the service areas.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Twinkies
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Joined: Dec 2006
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New Tires
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The factory was taking severe cuts to accommodate the changes needed to stay competitive. It even got to the point that there was a period of time that workers weren't even paid. According to John Rosamond's book, Save the Triumph Bonneville, there was a butting of heads of infrastructure updating in the sixties...a good decade before the Japanese started dominating the market. They were still building bikes on an infrastructure designed and initiated by Ted Turner! I don't buy that the revenue wasn't originally there as bikes from the '37 Speed Twin, '57 T'Bird and '59 Bonnie would say otherwise for the company in sales. Triumph's biggest problem is they sat on their a$$ when the company was booming and didn't re-invest. It is hard to get back into the game when everything you have is outdated and your competitor is already in 5th gear and sending products to the market. The coffin was already shut at that point.
You're assuming they had no creditors, even Bloor has creditors. My guess is that there is a reason Bloor hired the dude with the Bank of England past and pol connections when the economy started to suck. We can not ignore the economics of post WWII in Britain and why so many great companies hit the wall at about the same time. 
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Twinkies
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Joined: Dec 2006
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New Tires
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Our store is very busy and a training store, we also have a tire and lube that many don't. I will check but I am pretty sure that was after operating costs were deducted. Our store is always very busy, hard to walk through at many times due to the crowded sales floor.
gets me angry when I think about it, with numbers like that you would think they could staff correctly and increase that number instead of cutting hours and causing customers to leave in the service areas.
I feel your pain, I've worked retail before. Xmas kicks your ass. 
Food for thought, all that inventory was bought with borrowed money. Maybe less with Walmart's cash flow.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Twinkies
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Joined: Jul 2010
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Adjunct
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You're assuming they had no creditors, even Bloor has creditors.
They didn't...no assumption about it. Hence the reason for the Co-op and they were lobbying for money to the government until the very end.
I also find it interesting that Bloor has kept Triumph as a private company which ultimately puts him in charge and not at the mercy of some board.
Last edited by Trumpeteer; 11/22/2012 8:48 PM.
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Re: Twinkies
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You're assuming they had no creditors, even Bloor has creditors.
They didn't...no assumption about it. Hence the reason for the Co-op and they were lobbying for money to the government until the very end.
I also find it interesting that Bloor has kept Triumph as a private company which ultimately puts him in charge and not at the mercy of some board.
Like the Koch Family.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Twinkies
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 348
Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: Jul 2010
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You're assuming they had no creditors, even Bloor has creditors.
They didn't...no assumption about it. Hence the reason for the Co-op and they were lobbying for money to the government until the very end.
I also find it interesting that Bloor has kept Triumph as a private company which ultimately puts him in charge and not at the mercy of some board.
Like the Koch Family.
I think (and just my opinion and could easily be argued) that part of Hinkley's success is that it still remains a private company that gives Bloor a heck of a lot more free reign to go in the direction he feels best for his company. Of course the danger in all of this is who inherits the business when the time comes because the motivations of two different individuals do not always line up as straight as our parallel twins even if it is within the same family
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Re: Twinkies
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
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Quote:
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You're assuming they had no creditors, even Bloor has creditors.
They didn't...no assumption about it. Hence the reason for the Co-op and they were lobbying for money to the government until the very end.
I also find it interesting that Bloor has kept Triumph as a private company which ultimately puts him in charge and not at the mercy of some board.
Like the Koch Family.
I think (and just my opinion and could easily be argued) that part of Hinkley's success is that it still remains a private company that gives Bloor a heck of a lot more free reign to go in the direction he feels best for his company. Of course the danger in all of this is who inherits the business when the time comes because the motivations of two different individuals do not always line up as straight as our parallel twins even if it is within the same family
Again Wal Mart is a good example, when Sam Walton was alive it was a great place to work (so people who were there then tell me) and he cared about the way his employees were treated and made sure they were taken care of. When he died the 2 sides of the family split the company 1/2 got WM and 1/2 got Sams. Can't speak to Sams but at Wal Mart that is when the family started to wring every cent out of the company they could and in many cases at the expense of the employee. Sam cared about the company he built from nothing and knew he had his employees to thank for it. Now the family didn't build it and don't care since it was just handed to them and are running it into the ground.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Twinkies
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Joined: Mar 2009
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Stickman Yogi
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OP
Stickman Yogi
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964 |
And getting back to Twinkies... The last box of Twinkies.
Live to love, love to live.
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Re: Twinkies
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Joined: Mar 2009
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Stickman Yogi
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Stickman Yogi
Joined: Mar 2009
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This whole Twinkies thing has cause quite the uproar. (Warning... this video is hard to watch and may cause heart failure and/or mental anguish. Viewer discretion is advised.) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mp9Fhs2f8_Q
Live to love, love to live.
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Re: Twinkies
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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Thanks for all the good dialogue, Ian. A voice from the inside. And Ian's voice is the scary truth. My wife loves Wally world, and I love my wife, but she would never get my distaste of her shopping there, cause she just doesn't get the connection between her shopping loyalties and the poor way Wally treats their employees. But further, and on a larger note, she is one of most these days. Here's the thing. Loyalty between individuals is at an all time low in our culture today. The last union I was in, at an ordinance plant, I immediately joined the union. A little later, I tried to get some young guys to join, for all the "classic" reasons. The company treated us like dirt, payed as little as possible, and obviously counted us as "replacable cogs." All these young guys basically said, "other peoples problems aren't my concern". We have become a nation of "super individuals", not caring about the well being of other workers. And corporate leaders are using this thinking to leverage and poison relations between workers, ensuring lower pay. A divided workplace environment/culture is a cheaper/more manipulative place.
Fidelis et Fortis
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Re: Twinkies
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Joined: Dec 2006
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New Tires
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You're assuming they had no creditors, even Bloor has creditors.
They didn't...no assumption about it. Hence the reason for the Co-op and they were lobbying for money to the government until the very end.
I also find it interesting that Bloor has kept Triumph as a private company which ultimately puts him in charge and not at the mercy of some board.
Like the Koch Family.
I think (and just my opinion and could easily be argued) that part of Hinkley's success is that it still remains a private company that gives Bloor a heck of a lot more free reign to go in the direction he feels best for his company. Of course the danger in all of this is who inherits the business when the time comes because the motivations of two different individuals do not always line up as straight as our parallel twins even if it is within the same family
Again Wal Mart is a good example, when Sam Walton was alive it was a great place to work (so people who were there then tell me) and he cared about the way his employees were treated and made sure they were taken care of. When he died the 2 sides of the family split the company 1/2 got WM and 1/2 got Sams. Can't speak to Sams but at Wal Mart that is when the family started to wring every cent out of the company they could and in many cases at the expense of the employee. Sam cared about the company he built from nothing and knew he had his employees to thank for it. Now the family didn't build it and don't care since it was just handed to them and are running it into the ground.
You beat me to it, here in Mo. we are familiar with the Walton descendants , they're big MU benefactors. As the control of wealth is spread over more descendants the attention to personal detail diminishes. Many of the families Trumpteer refers to as America's "aristocrats" become no more than bond coupon clippers not involved in business. Many great companies are diminished for it. Many of the great families of wealth no longer create wealth, they're either fighting over it or just trying to preserve it as it diminishes.
It will be interesting to see if Mr. Bloor is as successful at the hand off as ol' man Koch.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Twinkies
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,271 Likes: 17
Saddle Sore
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Saddle Sore
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Again Walmart is a good example, when Sam Walton was alive it was a great place to work (so people who were there then tell me) and he cared about the way his employees were treated and made sure they were taken care of. When he died the 2 sides of the family split the company 1/2 got WM and 1/2 got Sams. Can't speak to Sams but at Wal Mart that is when the family started to wring every cent out of the company they could and in many cases at the expense of the employee. Sam cared about the company he built from nothing and knew he had his employees to thank for it. Now the family didn't build it and don't care since it was just handed to them and are running it into the ground.
As I've stated before I stear clear of Walmart if possible. My wife shops there for groceries even though I encourage her to go other places even if the costs are a bit higher.
When Sam Walton was alive his stores prided themselves on "made in America" products. Before his body was cold the family sold their souls to the devil, China.
It's my belief that Walmart is hugely responsible for our dependence of Chinese goods today. Walmarts competitors had no choice but to follow suit or close their doors. Thus a domino effect. Additionally Walmart has been responsible for many closed mom and pops businesses across America. From the independent pharmacies, tire stores,etc. etc. Many of these former business owners are now employed at a lesser wage by Wallyworld.
I personally am willing to pay more for American made goods, whenever I can find them.
The company I am employed with sells goods to Walamrt> like most manufactures our hands are tied.
My sister has been employed at Walmart for about 7-8 years after the tool factory she worked for was forced to close because of Chinese tools. Of course at a lesser wage and sh itty hours.
F Walmart and their greed !
That's my belief and I've been scoffed at before over my stance.
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Re: Twinkies
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New Tires
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No one's scoffing, but maybe Walmart is giving the American people what they want, even more importantly what they need at an affordable price. Walmart isn't responsible for the world economy or that incomes of the middle class have decreased in real terms. They didn't cause the sub-prime bust. They're not pumping cash into Wall Street with QEnfinity. They didn't cause the sovereign debt of the world to explode. They did lobby to get a certain law passage that will guarantee no one in a large company works more than 30 hours a week. They didn't cause the massive student debt. I could go on and on, and still miss some others could think of. The point is that without economic growth above 3.5% we are never recovering. Get use to the new norm for the next decade.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Twinkies
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
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The factory was taking severe cuts to accommodate the changes needed to stay competitive. It even got to the point that there was a period of time that workers weren't even paid. According to John Rosamond's book, Save the Triumph Bonneville, there was a butting of heads of infrastructure updating in the sixties...a good decade before the Japanese started dominating the market. They were still building bikes on an infrastructure designed and initiated by Ted Turner! I don't buy that the revenue wasn't originally there as bikes from the '37 Speed Twin, '57 T'Bird and '59 Bonnie would say otherwise for the company in sales. Triumph's biggest problem is they sat on their a$$ when the company was booming and didn't re-invest. It is hard to get back into the game when everything you have is outdated and your competitor is already in 5th gear and sending products to the market. The coffin was already shut at that point.
Absolutely, Matt! 
EXCEPT of course, it was ED(as in Edward) Turner, not "Ted Turner" you're referrin' to here.
(...TED Turner was the guy who about 20 years ago started that classic movie channel I like to watch and which often shows those old BLACK AND WHITE CLASSIC MOVIES I love so much, and the ones many if not most of YOU FREAKIN' PUPPIES OUT THERE "just can't get into"!!!)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Twinkies
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Joined: Jul 2010
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Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: Jul 2010
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EXCEPT of course, it was ED(as in Edward) Turner, not "Ted Turner" you're referrin' to here.
(...TED Turner was the guy who about 20 years ago started that classic movie channel I like to watch and which often shows those old BLACK AND WHITE CLASSIC MOVIES I love so much, and the ones many if not most of YOU FREAKIN' PUPPIES OUT THERE "just can't get into"!!!)
Thank you for the correction Dwight...I was typing too darn fast and brain farted
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Re: Twinkies
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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When Sam Walton was alive his stores prided themselves on "made in America" products. Before his body was cold the family sold their souls to the devil, China.
Yeah, they still wiped out local commerce but Sam was all about "Buy American". Had to at least give him that. I don't know anything about the guy but that alone meant something to me. I've never, ever read a single thing about ANY of his heirs that would lead me to think that they are anything other than the self serving scum of the Earth.
Talk about an 'entitlement generation'. The Waltons are the poster children.
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Re: Twinkies
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Joined: Dec 2006
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New Tires
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New Tires
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When Sam Walton was alive his stores prided themselves on "made in America" products. Before his body was cold the family sold their souls to the devil, China.
Yeah, they still wiped out local commerce but Sam was all about "Buy American". Had to at least give him that. I don't know anything about the guy but that alone meant something to me. I've never, ever read a single thing about ANY of his heirs that would lead me to think that they are anything other than the self serving scum of the Earth.
Talk about an 'entitlement generation'. The Waltons are the poster children.
I have no idea what is in the Walton families hearts, I doubt you do either.
Also, I don't understand how the rich pursuing self interest makes them "scum of the earth". Warren Buffet pursues his self interest, puts local businesses out of business with Helzberg's, Nebraska Furniture Mart and others, but he is a saint. Let's also pretend that locally owned retail businesses didn't notoriously pay minimum wage and busted their asses to not pay OT.
Unions pursuing self interest are saintly? Unions don't create more jobs, they do make wages inelastic downward, but they do it on the backs of younger workers and new entrants, see the UAW. Unions do sometimes create more jobs, Hostess is a fine example, it's called featherbedding.
Someone mentioned the union organised crime connection. Anyone living in a large metro area know it's true.
I don't think "entitlement" means what you think it means.
If we do use what I perceive your meaning to be, then the whole Baby Boomer generation would be poster children for the "entitlement generation". we could sing "We Are The World" because we made it the way it is.  
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Twinkies
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,467 Likes: 3
Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Posts: 3,467 Likes: 3 |
I always enjoy reading these Union vs. Management / Pro and Anti Capitalist posts. I've been both. In the 70's, I worked for a sign company that lettered sho-cards for the Teamster's Union. Businesses in town with Union shops were encouraged to advertise by buying these sho-cards that were then posted in the Union hall for a period of time - to show their "unity" with the Teamsters. The sign requests expanded from local businesses to businesses across the country. Part of my job was to package and deliver the finished sho-cards to the Greyhound bus station for shipping. Other deliveries were made to our local airport, where private planes would land, I would drive out to the plane and load the packages into the plane and the plane would take off. Business was good! A couple years later, I had to testify to a grand jury. Turns out the local union boss that had set up this plan - was punishing businesses that chose not to advertise by staging employee walkouts and in more than a couple of cases, businesses mysteriously burned. He went to prison. A few years later when I was in the restaurant business, a union rep. made attempts to organize my employees. One of his tactics was contacting the SBA, making allegations that I wasn't hiring minorities. That started an investigation. After several weeks, the union Rep came to me and offered to drop his efforts if I agreed to make a donation to his union. I refused. Fortunately I had good employees that saw that it was just a power grab, but I did have to terminate a couple because they continued to push the issue. Then for 14+ years, I was Management's rep working to hammer out Local MOU's and defending against grievances filed by our 2 unions. (I had been a memmber in good standing of these 2 Unions when I was in Craft). I've seen both the good and the bad from Unions, including the same from Management. Carry on...
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Re: Twinkies
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Joined: Aug 2009
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Maybe all these CEO's, board members, and union reps should have a huge convention in Colorado with a peace pipe and a stock pile of Twinkies.
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Re: Twinkies
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Joined: Dec 2006
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New Tires
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New Tires
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I once was a supervisor in a union plant. One day I got called into the plant manager's office, only to find the union and NAACP there to accuse me of hiring discrimination. I was shocked, they said I fired too many blacks. First I asked, how would they know, those stats on race were illegal to keep by a corp. I said I most likely did fire more blacks than other supervisors, but that I hired more blacks than even the black supervisors and had more working for me. I told them they should look at those non-existent stats a little harder and that I was going to lunch. When I got back the NAACP apologized to me, the union didn't.
One of the NAACP people was a minister I'd play ball with at the local college. He told me later that on the drive home an old member commented that he couldn't believe the union had sucked them in, he referred to me as a "black prince". My minister friend and I had a laugh, he said how can an irish catholic white trash guy be a "black prince"? I said I've never actually seen a white buffalo either.
I guess my point is that if it's always all out war by both sides, nobody wins or moves forward.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Twinkies
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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Posts: 6,821 |
I've had middle managers, and supervisors, and co-workers who were overt racists, and as union steward I've helped with their "reassignments", so what?
Asshats exist on both sides, it's called human nature.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Twinkies
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,681 Likes: 1
Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,681 Likes: 1 |
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This whole Twinkies thing has cause quite the uproar. (Warning... this video is hard to watch and may cause heart failure and/or mental anguish. Viewer discretion is advised.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mp9Fhs2f8_Q
Grandpa is blaming Obama for taking away his Twinkies? And wasn't it classy of the person to film grandpa in a melt down so he could put it on you tube and humiliate him?
"Catching a yellow jacket in your shirt at seventy miles per hour can double your vocabulary" Author unknown
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Re: Twinkies
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Joined: Dec 2006
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New Tires
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New Tires
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Quote:
I've had middle managers, and supervisors, and co-workers who were overt racists, and as union steward I've helped with their "reassignments", so what?
Asshats exist on both sides, it's called human nature.
"Asshats exist on both sides, it's called human nature. "
Thanks for helping make my point, I'm appealing to their better natures as a matter of self interest.
I don't get the "so what?".
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Twinkies
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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Posts: 2,146 |
Quote:
I once was a supervisor in a union plant. One day I got called into the plant manager's office, only to find the union and NAACP there to accuse me of hiring discrimination. I was shocked, they said I fired too many blacks. First I asked, how would they know, those stats on race were illegal to keep by a corp. I said I most likely did fire more blacks than other supervisors, but that I hired more blacks than even the black supervisors and had more working for me. I told them they should look at those non-existent stats a little harder and that I was going to lunch. When I got back the NAACP apologized to me, the union didn't.
One of the NAACP people was a minister I'd play ball with at the local college. He told me later that on the drive home an old member commented that he couldn't believe the union had sucked them in, he referred to me as a "black prince". My minister friend and I had a laugh, he said how can an irish catholic white trash guy be a "black prince"? I said I've never actually seen a white buffalo either.
I guess my point is that if it's always all out war by both sides, nobody wins or moves forward.
That's quite a story.
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Re: Twinkies
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
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I don't get the "so what?".
I guess that I infer from the tone of your posts that you believe the union is always the bad guy. If that's not your intent, then it's my mistake.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Twinkies
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964
Stickman Yogi
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OP
Stickman Yogi
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964 |
Quote:
Quote:
This whole Twinkies thing has cause quite the uproar. (Warning... this video is hard to watch and may cause heart failure and/or mental anguish. Viewer discretion is advised.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mp9Fhs2f8_Q
Grandpa is blaming Obama for taking away his Twinkies? And wasn't it classy of the person to film grandpa in a melt down so he could put it on you tube and humiliate him?
I'm pretty sure it was staged but I could be wrong.
Live to love, love to live.
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Re: Twinkies
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,060 Likes: 6
Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,060 Likes: 6 |
Unions are not all good, that's for sure. But they are, at worst, a necessary evil. But loyalty to other workers are the only way to curb the quite human nature to greed. Anybody who doesn't think Unions do more good than harm, doesn't know "Western" industrialized history. And anybody who doesn't believe that giant corporations wouldn't go back to child labor, overwork, slave pay, and a host of other greedy evils, given the chance, is a fool. And no, I don't think the government and it's rules (all a result of Union ideas and sweat equity) are absolute protection.
Fidelis et Fortis
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Re: Twinkies
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
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New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
Quote:
Unions are not all good, that's for sure. But they are, at worst, a necessary evil. But loyalty to other workers are the only way to curb the quite human nature to greed. Anybody who doesn't think Unions do more good than harm, doesn't know "Western" industrialized history. And anybody who doesn't believe that giant corporations wouldn't go back to child labor, overwork, slave pay, and a host of other greedy evils, given the chance, is a fool. And no, I don't think the government and it's rules (all a result of Union ideas and sweat equity) are absolute protection.
No, here they will replace workers with computers and robots, it will be cheaper. Why would they do those things you mention here. They can go to countries all over the world with per capita incomes of less than $3000 and improve those peoples' lives. They've already done it with shoes and textiles.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Twinkies
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,735 Likes: 7
Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,735 Likes: 7 |
Quote:
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Unions are not all good, that's for sure. But they are, at worst, a necessary evil. But loyalty to other workers are the only way to curb the quite human nature to greed. Anybody who doesn't think Unions do more good than harm, doesn't know "Western" industrialized history. And anybody who doesn't believe that giant corporations wouldn't go back to child labor, overwork, slave pay, and a host of other greedy evils, given the chance, is a fool. And no, I don't think the government and it's rules (all a result of Union ideas and sweat equity) are absolute protection.
No, here they will replace workers with computers and robots, it will be cheaper. Why would they do those things you mention here. They can go to countries all over the world with per capita incomes of less than $3000 and improve those peoples' lives. They've already done it with shoes and textiles.
Unions exist in more than just manufacturing.
I can guarantee that my job will not be replaced by some robot in my lifetime. My job can not be outsourced.
I find that most of the people with anti union attitudes either had a bad experience with them one single time, or they just regurgitate misinformation. What bothers me about it is that those people say there should be no unions at all. I would never tell someone else what they should be earning for their work. Why the hell should a stranger that has no idea what it takes to do my job try to pass legislation to prevent me from earning my full potential?
My training is from an accredited school, recognized by the Department of Labor, and transfers to actual college credit. I have a guaranteed wage and benefit package, as long as I work for a union signatory contractor. Why would I EVER want to go make 1/3 or less of what I do, with no benefits and no retirement? Because some other anti union a-hole voted that way?
Don't like unions? Don't be in one. It should be simple. But don't try to tell other people what they should be earning to do their job. And that's basically what union busting does.
Always remember to be yourself. Unless you suck. Then pretend to be someone else.
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Re: Twinkies
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
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Re: Twinkies
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,735 Likes: 7
Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,735 Likes: 7 |
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This whole Twinkies thing has cause quite the uproar. (Warning... this video is hard to watch and may cause heart failure and/or mental anguish. Viewer discretion is advised.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mp9Fhs2f8_Q
Grandpa is blaming Obama for taking away his Twinkies? And wasn't it classy of the person to film grandpa in a melt down so he could put it on you tube and humiliate him?
I'm pretty sure it was staged but I could be wrong.
since the username that uploaded it is AngryGrandpaShow, you're probably right
Always remember to be yourself. Unless you suck. Then pretend to be someone else.
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Re: Twinkies
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
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New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Unions are not all good, that's for sure. But they are, at worst, a necessary evil. But loyalty to other workers are the only way to curb the quite human nature to greed. Anybody who doesn't think Unions do more good than harm, doesn't know "Western" industrialized history. And anybody who doesn't believe that giant corporations wouldn't go back to child labor, overwork, slave pay, and a host of other greedy evils, given the chance, is a fool. And no, I don't think the government and it's rules (all a result of Union ideas and sweat equity) are absolute protection.
No, here they will replace workers with computers and robots, it will be cheaper. Why would they do those things you mention here. They can go to countries all over the world with per capita incomes of less than $3000 and improve those peoples' lives. They've already done it with shoes and textiles.
Unions exist in more than just manufacturing.
I can guarantee that my job will not be replaced by some robot in my lifetime. My job can not be outsourced.
I find that most of the people with anti union attitudes either had a bad experience with them one single time, or they just regurgitate misinformation. What bothers me about it is that those people say there should be no unions at all. I would never tell someone else what they should be earning for their work. Why the hell should a stranger that has no idea what it takes to do my job try to pass legislation to prevent me from earning my full potential?
My training is from an accredited school, recognized by the Department of Labor, and transfers to actual college credit. I have a guaranteed wage and benefit package, as long as I work for a union signatory contractor. Why would I EVER want to go make 1/3 or less of what I do, with no benefits and no retirement? Because some other anti union a-hole voted that way?
Don't like unions? Don't be in one. It should be simple. But don't try to tell other people what they should be earning to do their job. And that's basically what union busting does.
There's hardly anything you said I don't agree with. We both live in Missouri, a union state. I live in KCMo 15 miles from Kansas, a right to work state, do you really believe there are no unions in Kansas, no UAW workers making autos, no union electricians, carpenters, etc.? In most right to work states all it means is that a union can't compel membership as a requirement for employment. In many RTW states it doesn't even exempt non-union workers in union shops from paying the non-political portion of dues.
Truth is that we can pass laws to eliminate RTW states and it won't change the economic realities we're facing.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Twinkies
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7 |
Quote:
Unions are not all good, that's for sure. But they are, at worst, a necessary evil. But loyalty to other workers are the only way to curb the quite human nature to greed. Anybody who doesn't think Unions do more good than harm, doesn't know "Western" industrialized history. And anybody who doesn't believe that giant corporations wouldn't go back to child labor, overwork, slave pay, and a host of other greedy evils, given the chance, is a fool. And no, I don't think the government and it's rules (all a result of Union ideas and sweat equity) are absolute protection.
Unions are a business. The president of the Bakers Union has previously worked for the Teamsters and the UAW, if the Bakers Union goes belly up he'll just move on the another union position. These guys are not bakers or miners or auto workers. They are union bosses. Trumka was the head of the Mine Workers before he took over the AFL-CIO where he was happy to toss the miners under the bus. Pretending they are some band of brothers looking after the interests of their members is simply unrealistic. They exist to raise dues, increase their own income and continue in power.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Twinkies
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
(...I just HATE gettin' involved in these sorta discussions, but I just GOTTA insert this...) Larry wrote: Quote:
Unions are a business. The president of the Bakers Union has previously worked for the Teamsters and the UAW, if the Bakers Union goes belly up he'll just move on the another union position. These guys are not bakers or miners or auto workers.
Well Larry, I could be wrong here, BUT I'll betcha there's a REALLY good possibility that the guys who NOW run large bakery concerns never baked a freakin' cake in their lives, the guys who run the mining concerns today never jumped on any heavy mining equipment in THEIR lives, AND the guys runnin' the automobile companies today never bolted a freakin' fender onto a car body in THEIR lives EITHER!!!
Nope. If you're correct about the most union leadership today here, then what the hell is the difference between THOSE asswipes and the asswipes in the broadrooms who run a company into the ground, get their golden parachutes afterward, and THEN move on to another completely different type of company, run THAT company into the ground financially, once again getting their litle golden parachutes after leaving, and then move on to yet ANOTHER different type of company, and so on, and so on, and so on, and.......?????
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Twinkies
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7 |
I didn't say there was any difference. I'm saying they care no more for the average union member than the CEO of the company and likely less. It was the union boss that made the decision for all the members in the twinkie case. He didn't seem to mind that 18,500 people lost their jobs and the membership wasn't allowed to vote on it. My point is that dues income and maintaining power are what they are all about. That and buying politicians with the dues they forcibly extract from their members. When I was in the Teamsters they showed a lot less concern about us than the employer did and Bakers union just did the same thing.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Twinkies
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
I have just one more thing to add to this discussion here... While as a member of an unionized airline workforce back before my retirement, I will admit I saw AND verbally noted to my union(I.A.M. and a few others before that) representative what I thought to be "counter-productive" actions done by them over the years, and ALSO during my years in that industry would see AND verbally note to my company superiors, i.e. Management, many a "counter-productive" measure which I thought THEY had made. Point is, the thing that I always appreciated MOST about being a union member was that after my "verbally noting" to more than a few managers that I thought their decisions were nothing but them being "frightened little Yes Men" and "explaining" to them that I "had forgetten more about this damn job than they would ever learn"...well, AT LEAST those "frightened little Yes Men(and Women)" couldn't fire me for SAYIN' THE DAMN TRUTH TO 'EM!!! (...and thus which allowed me to finish out my airline "career" to the point where I could retire AND before I got to the point of seriously considering "throttling" EITHER one of my union reps OR one of my managers one day!!!) 
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Twinkies
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
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New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
I think the problem is both sides pose their arguments on moral grounds. There are plenty of "sins" on both sides. Truth is union or non-union, all the legislation in the world won't trump the laws of economics. Where unionization is sustainable it will exist, the opposite is true.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Twinkies
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Thanks for the clarification, Larry. Btw, I LOVE your new H.L.Mencken quote tagline here! That dude had some great(though usually extremely cynical) thoughts to share, didn't he!
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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