 Handling - modern Bonneville vs vintage bikes
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Joined: Jan 2005
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OP
Oil Expert
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On a recent trip I was able to swap back and forth between three bikes: a moden bonneville, a 1960's BSA 650, and a 1970's Honda 750. Visually these bikes all have similar steering geometry but to me they had a quite different feel.
I particularly liked the feel of the BSA, I would describe the handling as light and neutral - it was easy to start a turn or adjust the line. This is in contrast to my america which oversteers (wants to turn more sharply) at low speed and understeers(wants to go wide) at higher speed.
The Honda was next best but took a bit of effort to move off a straight-line and then wanted to turn a bit more than needed.
I expected to like the Bonneville but it just felt stiff. I didn't think to check for a steering damper but the bike just felt generally less responsive to steering inputs than either of the other two.
Has anybody else got any experience with vintage vs modern or is there any obvious reason for the differences? I looked for rake/trail data but didn't find it for anything except the modern bonneville which says its geometry(29 degree rake) is very similar to the vintage bike.
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Re: Handling - modern Bonneville vs vintage bikes
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,243 Likes: 64
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,243 Likes: 64 |
I have a few vintage bonnies and Tigers and Trophys and they are all very nimble in my opinion compared to modern bikes I have ridden. I have yet to ride a modern bonnie though. I love the feel of my 58 T-110 hard tail although the sprung hub rear wheel feels a bit goofy at times.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Handling - modern Bonneville vs vintage bikes
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,152
Oil Expert
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OP
Oil Expert
Joined: Jan 2005
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Quote:
I have a few vintage bonnies and Tigers and Trophys and they are all very nimble in my opinion compared to modern bikes I have ridden. I have yet to ride a modern bonnie though. I love the feel of my 58 T-110 hard tail although the sprung hub rear wheel feels a bit goofy at times.
Nimble, that's the word I wanted!
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Re: Handling - modern Bonneville vs vintage bikes
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Yep Bill, I know what ya mean. I also own a 1970 Bonneville, though it's even about 60-70 bs lighter than a stock '70 Bonnie would be because it's now a Street Tracker and has many aftermarket parts which are lighter in weight than their stock units. It now weighs 350lbs(wet) which makes it very easy to "throw around" in the twisties.
However, yes, your guess about our modern BA's and Speedies' stretched out rake of 33.3 degrees and the subsequent trail figure DOES contribute as much to the slower steering response of them as does the added weight they have over the older, smaller and lighter British(particularly) motorcycles of the vintage era. And while I do believe the Hinckley-built standard Bonnies steering rake/trail figures are close to the older Meriden-built models, the newer models are also some 50-60 lbs heavier than are the vintage machines, which would of course add to a feeling of being less "nimble" than the older models.
And yeah, the original first-generation SOHC CB750 while being quite the advancement in mass-produced motorcycle engineering(particularly in its engine, braking and electrics systems), was never known to be a "good handling" motorcycle. It seemed to me that the Japanese manufacturers didn't begin to have the frame geometry dialed-in to their machines until the very late '70s.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Handling - modern Bonneville vs vintage bikes
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,060 Likes: 6
Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,060 Likes: 6 |
I restored and rode a 69 650 Bonneville for many years. I sold it to pay some bills and finance my America. NOTHING handled better than my old Bonnie. Although I love my America, and I ride pretty tame (Except when I'm with Dave and Chris, of course), it took me a while to get used to the handling of my America. I always chuckle when a member swoons over the handling of an America or a Speedmaster. I have not ridden a new Bonnie, but maybe I will someday so I can compare.
Fidelis et Fortis
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Re: Handling - modern Bonneville vs vintage bikes
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Joined: Aug 2007
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,735 Likes: 7 |
the new Bonnevilles are pretty damn fun, you can take turns in the city without using any brakes, just throw it in at 30-35 and be down the street!
Always remember to be yourself. Unless you suck. Then pretend to be someone else.
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Re: Handling - modern Bonneville vs vintage bikes
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,932 Likes: 2
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,932 Likes: 2 |
we should do this every weekend!
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Re: Handling - modern Bonneville vs vintage bikes
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Quote:
gravel?
Smiling?...waving?...Corvettes?
(...as we have seen, THOSE can be hazards TOO ya know, JR!!!...so what's your POINT???)  
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Handling - modern Bonneville vs vintage bikes
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,735 Likes: 7
Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,735 Likes: 7 |
Quote:
gravel?
I said in the city, not out where you live
Always remember to be yourself. Unless you suck. Then pretend to be someone else.
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Re: Handling - modern Bonneville vs vintage bikes
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Hey! Do they even HAVE gravel out where JR lives??? (...uh oh...I hope I didn't just start those "We were SOOOO poor..." jokes again around here, eh Dave?!!) 
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Handling - modern Bonneville vs vintage bikes
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,680
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,680 |
My 08 T100 was a joy. Shorter wheelbase and higher center of gravity than the America (which I adore). Never thought of it as stiff, it was quite "nimble" and very "flickable"
Thom
I might be wrong, I sometimes am.
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Re: Handling - modern Bonneville vs vintage bikes
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 754
3/4 Throttle
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3/4 Throttle
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 754 |
IMHO after restoring & riding a number of vintage Brits over the years I honestly thought the BA would handle better (ie: more responsive/nimble) that the 60's & 70's Bonnies I've had. Bill's right that the BA seems prone to oversteers (wants to turn more sharply) at low speed and understeers(wants to go wide) at higher speed. Both conditions which can be somewhat countered by the angle of attack (Centerline profile of the bike in relation to the road) and the line taken into, through and out of the corner. The old Bonnies are fun to ride, but the America is much smoother. 
Karl
Odessa, MO
'07 America, Cinnamon Girl (aka: Black Beauty or Ol' Penny) - Sit Down, Shut Up & Hang On
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Re: Handling - modern Bonneville vs vintage bikes
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,060 Likes: 6
Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,060 Likes: 6 |
Quote:
The old Bonnies are fun to ride, but the America is much smoother.
I suppose you're talking about a smoother motor, and that is true. However, I almost didn't buy my America cause I was used to a little more "rumble". But now I kinda enjoy the smooth on longer trips. I read that when it was first designed the motor was actually even smoother, but they "lumped it up" a little to give it more character. That's funny.
Fidelis et Fortis
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Re: Handling - modern Bonneville vs vintage bikes
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 537
Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 537 |
I have a '71 Tiger (essentially a single carb Bonneville) and IMHO you can't really compare a machine of that vintage, geometry, weight, engine capacity, tire size & ergonomics with our more modern BA's & SM's. Horses for courses I reckon. The old classics are great for a retro re-visit and fun ride but I much prefer the performance, comfort, ergonomics, build quality & reliability of my '06 BA any day.
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Re: Handling - modern Bonneville vs vintage bikes
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1
Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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I have a 64 Trophy sitting next to my 04 America in the shop and the handling isn't comparable.
So many factors intertwine, neck angle, weight, wheelbase, tire size all contribute to the differences to the point that it's like comparing oranges to apples. I do recall the same feeling of differences when I had that 01 Bonnie...I'm not sure I can tell as much between the Trophy and the Bonnie except the weight, which is substantial.
BTW, after riding my buddy's Scrambler I have to give it the highest marks in the retro camp for agility and smoothness. Best of the lot IMHO.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Handling - modern Bonneville vs vintage bikes
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,680
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,680 |
Ed, you are not alone. I heard LarryShep say several times that the Scrambler was the best handling of the line.
Thom
I might be wrong, I sometimes am.
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Re: Handling - modern Bonneville vs vintage bikes
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Joined: May 2011
Posts: 754
3/4 Throttle
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3/4 Throttle
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 754 |
Quote:
I suppose you're talking about a smoother motor, and that is true.
Rich, aside from motor vibration/rumblyness on the vintage models I found the handling was more nimble/agile but the overall ride on most of the bikes I restored (save for the 73' 750 Bonnie wet frame & my 64' 650 hardtail) was very reactive to the road (bumpy). Now, taking into account my mechanical skill(s) or lack thereof at those times I am guessing that in re-assembly of the suspension components I coulda screwed up to account for the roughness of the rides.
Karl
Odessa, MO
'07 America, Cinnamon Girl (aka: Black Beauty or Ol' Penny) - Sit Down, Shut Up & Hang On
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Re: Handling - modern Bonneville vs vintage bikes
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,060 Likes: 6
Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,060 Likes: 6 |
Quote:
Quote:
I suppose you're talking about a smoother motor, and that is true.
Rich, aside from motor vibration/rumblyness on the vintage models I found the handling was more nimble/agile but the overall ride on most of the bikes I restored (save for the 73' 750 Bonnie wet frame & my 64' 650 hardtail) was very reactive to the road (bumpy). Now, taking into account my mechanical skill(s) or lack thereof at those times I am guessing that in re-assembly of the suspension components I coulda screwed up to account for the roughness of the rides.
I never can really have much of an opinion on roughness of ride cause I spent too many years on choppers or altered suspensions. (Including cars, back in the day, remember those crazy air shocks and pumping them way up to provide that "cool" stance and clearance for the oversized tires?) I'm still running stock rear shocks on my America, even though the serious riders around here say they handle terrible. (And I suppose they do) When I restored the 69 Bonnie, I had a blast tearing around corners for a while cause my chopper couldn't even think about cornering.
Fidelis et Fortis
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Re: Handling - modern Bonneville vs vintage bikes
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
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I too come from hard tail choppers and my 71 LeMans Sport had a rear bumper at about my chest level. I too run stock rear shocks and love the way my SM rides.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Handling - modern Bonneville vs vintage bikes
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 3,995 Likes: 10
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Jun 2009
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"the original first-generation SOHC CB750 while being quite the advancement in mass-produced motorcycle engineering(particularly in its engine, braking and electrics systems), was never known to be a "good handling" motorcycle. It seemed to me that the Japanese manufacturers didn't begin to have the frame geometry dialed-in to their machines until the very late '70s"
You're right Dwight. We started of on old knackered AJS Matchless singles and old clapped out BSAs and Triumphs.When the japanese started with big bikes the "avant garde" guys bought 650 Yamahas and 750 4 Hondas.
They tried aftermarket steering dampers,Koni shocks,and drag or dropped bars.All of which which improved, but didn't correct the mediocre handling.
Dinosaur.
"Oh Man I only ride 'em.I don't know what makes 'em work". Donald "Oddball" Sutherland
"Don't let the bastards get you down". Kris Kristofferson
"I am only paranoid because everyone is against me". Larry [Frank Burns] Linville
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Re: Handling - modern Bonneville vs vintage bikes
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,152
Oil Expert
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OP
Oil Expert
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,152 |
Quote:
"the original first-generation SOHC CB750 while being quite the advancement in mass-produced motorcycle engineering(particularly in its engine, braking and electrics systems), was never known to be a "good handling" motorcycle. It seemed to me that the Japanese manufacturers didn't begin to have the frame geometry dialed-in to their machines until the very late '70s"
You're right Dwight. We started of on old knackered AJS Matchless singles and old clapped out BSAs and Triumphs.When the japanese started with big bikes the "avant garde" guys bought 650 Yamahas and 750 4 Hondas.
They tried aftermarket steering dampers,Koni shocks,and drag or dropped bars.All of which which improved, but didn't correct the mediocre handling.
I still liked the handling of the Honda better than the modern bonnie or my america.
Don't get me wrong, I love my america and I've ridden it hard in the georgia mountains but the older bikes were a treat in the twisties. I know why now though, see below.
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Re: Handling - It's the weight Stupid
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A few knowledgeable souls above commented on the weight and steering angle differences of modern vs vintage. I was looking for the steering angle and came across some stats that blew me away:
The modern bonneville's wet weight is 230 kg, the vintage bonnie was 180. That's more than 100 pounds difference.
The older bonnie had a tighter steering angle at 25 degrees vs 28 for the modern bonnie.
The America is another 40 lbs heavier than the modern bonnie and the steering angle is 33 degrees. so the comparison is even more dramatic.
Like I say, folks above pointed this out but I didn't realize How different the bikes were.
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