 Re-thinking performance
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I have been looking at improving my bike's performance. Having done a lot of research I seem to have come a full circle. I would welcome your thoughts and ideas. Goal: More torque in the 3000-6000 range. More HP above 6000 would be a bonus but rarely used and is not a primary goal. Current mods on my 09 EFI America: Staintune straight through pipes, K&N filter, Polaris bellmouth, airbox unmodified, AI removed, O2 sensors disabled, TOR triumph tune 20184 modified with dyno and tuneboy. Riding style: Aggressive but usually within 3000-6000 rpm. This is partly due to the fact thats where my torque is tuned in. Current dyno results: 53.5 HP and 50.3 ft/lbs torque (sae) My torque seems quite good compared to other 865s and 790s. I had my tuner target the mid range revs with the trade-off of losing at the top end. Airbox internal baffle: I recently discovered there is a baffle in the airbox and that its removal improves intake flow almost as good as installing pods (which I don't want to do atm). So I am going to remove the airbox baffle which will require re-tuning. I thought that while I'm at it I should look at some other performance upgrades. Cams: So I have investigated cams (Thunderbike and TPUSA 813s). These are a significant investment and after research it seems they won't meet my goals. Both are targeting top end HP and any mid range torque gain is small for the price. Billet intakes: TPUSA make some billet EFI intakes which are reasonably priced but I don't know if they will produce any benefit in my setup. Big Bore upgrades: A bit too pricey atm. Maybe when the engine is older (currently 22,000kms). Ported head: I don't really know anything about this, the cost or where to get it done. Dynotune: I need an EFI dynotune using either tuneboy or tunecu. The cheapest option would be buying a TTP tune but they won't have one available for the America until next year. The only suitable tuner I have found in Brisbane wants $550 which I may have to go with. So if I'm spending $550 on a tune is there any other performance upgrade I should be considering? Sorry this is lengthy but it's a waste of time without all the info.
Cheers, Richard
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09 America, Staintune Pipes, K&N, Breathe, Hagon Nitros, AI & O2 removed, tune 20184 (modified), MTX-L a/f gauge
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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Joined: May 2010
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Check Pants
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If you want more in the mid-range, why not add a tooth to the rear sprocket? It might not show on the dyno, but you'll swear it's there.
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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I added a considerable amount of torque when I installed my billet intakes, but my engine is a 904 with ported/polished head and oversized valves, and my carbs are bored 3mm over stock size. So I can't really say if you will see the same jump in torque I did. Red line is 904 w/headwork, blue is with bored carbs, black is with billet intakes 
Always remember to be yourself. Unless you suck. Then pretend to be someone else.
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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Loquacious
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If you do the 813 cams & reflash the ECU you won't regret it. Really. The motor loses nothing down low, gains a bit in the mid, & the top end is stellar.
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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Quote:
If you want more in the mid-range, why not add a tooth to the rear sprocket? It might not show on the dyno, but you'll swear it's there.
Yes, a good idea, will definitely do that also. BTW what's the difference (if any) between adding a tooth on the rear and dropping a tooth on the front?
Cheers, Richard
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09 America, Staintune Pipes, K&N, Breathe, Hagon Nitros, AI & O2 removed, tune 20184 (modified), MTX-L a/f gauge
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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Quote:
If you do the 813 cams & reflash the ECU you won't regret it. Really. The motor loses nothing down low, gains a bit in the mid, & the top end is stellar.
Yes, the top end is a huge improvement, but that's not my goal - I rarely go past 6500rpm. So it's a big cost for small gains in the rev range I'm after.
Cheers, Richard
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09 America, Staintune Pipes, K&N, Breathe, Hagon Nitros, AI & O2 removed, tune 20184 (modified), MTX-L a/f gauge
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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Quote:
I added a considerable amount of torque when I installed my billet intakes, but ... I can't really say if you will see the same jump in torque I did.
Its hard to say whether your improvement with the intakes would be a result of the combined synergy of all your mods or not.
Also a closer look at the TPUSA info on the intakes leads me to believe they wont work with the airbox and maybe not with EFI - although the latter is unclear.
Cheers, Richard
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09 America, Staintune Pipes, K&N, Breathe, Hagon Nitros, AI & O2 removed, tune 20184 (modified), MTX-L a/f gauge
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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Check Pants
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Check Pants
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Quote:
Quote:
If you want more in the mid-range, why not add a tooth to the rear sprocket? It might not show on the dyno, but you'll swear it's there.
Yes, a good idea, will definitely do that also. BTW what's the difference (if any) between adding a tooth on the rear and dropping a tooth on the front?
I believe add/drop a tooth on the front sprocket is like changing a little over two teeth on the rear. You can work out the permutations by dividing, I seem to remember, DISCLAIMER I'm on my third Glenmorangie Scotch. # teeth front into # teeth rear. If I'm wrong, somebody will light this up correctly , I am assured. You can work out any available combos this way and you will notice the bigger change from differing the front as to the rear. Off to bed. 
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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Joined: Feb 2008
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Loquacious
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Quote:
...big cost for small gains in the rev range I'm after.
Richard, go ride a properly tuned 813 cammed 865, & then ride yours. And then tell me which one you'd rather have, & if it's worth the cost.
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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Quote:
... go ride a properly tuned 813 cammed 865, & then ride yours. And then tell me which one you'd rather have, & if it's worth the cost.
I will certainly do that if I get the opportunity (I don't know anyone in Brisbane with the 813s). However, the dynos show little or no difference to what I already have in the rev range we're discussing.
Cheers, Richard
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09 America, Staintune Pipes, K&N, Breathe, Hagon Nitros, AI & O2 removed, tune 20184 (modified), MTX-L a/f gauge
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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torque: less teeth front, more teeth rear
power: more teeth front, less teeth rear.
there was a decent article in cafe racer magazine an issue or two ago. which reminds me, i hit the atm to deposit my check so i could order a sprocket RIGHT NOW. adios.
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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Would this be more accurately described as:
torque (acceleration): less teeth front, more teeth rear
Top speed: more teeth front, less teeth rear. ?
Cheers, Richard
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09 America, Staintune Pipes, K&N, Breathe, Hagon Nitros, AI & O2 removed, tune 20184 (modified), MTX-L a/f gauge
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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Quote:
Would this be more accurately described as:
torque (acceleration): less teeth front, more teeth rear
Top speed: more teeth front, less teeth rear. ?
yeah. that sounds better.
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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Quote:
Goal:
More torque in the 3000-6000 range. More HP above 6000 would be a bonus but rarely used and is not a primary goal.
Richard, it has already been covered but I would recommend going down one tooth on the front sprocket. Some increase in sportyness at the least expense and work. Doesn't require any motor retuning and can be undone easily.
Now, if you really want to make some improvements the 813 cams will do it. I had the 813 cams & 904 big bore done at the same time so can't say for sure which made the biggest difference where. My dealer (very experienced Triumph folks) said that more cc's would increase torque. Cams would help mid & high RPM's. Stock mine just crawled above 6,000RPM and felt like I was strangling it by 6,500RPM. Rarely got above 5,500RPM because it just didn't gain power. Now it pulls up to the rev limiter. *Now a proper EFI tune is needed to optimize the gains. The shop also indicated that if I did the big bore w/o cams I would likely be back soon for them. Good luck with any changes you make.
09 America, some modifications
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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Check Pants
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Quote:
Top speed: more teeth front, less teeth rear. ?
yeah. that sounds better.
Bigger front sprocket and smaller rear equals, downshifting on hills more often, especially fifth gear to fourth. Maybe if you live in a flatbush area, not so much? There is a point, that at the higher ratios, you will seem to lose both torque and H. power. I put a wide 16" wheel on the back of my '05 and at idle in first, she rolled at about 12-14 MPH and I practically longer needed fifth gear, a 16/43 setup, got things back to where I liked the gearing again and she rips now. You have to have, more power than stock, to really appreciate the higher ratios, IMHO.
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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3/4 Throttle
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3/4 Throttle
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I had BC cams put in my bike by BA Moto. They called it a 790 motor cam...The cam comes on around 4,000 rpm and pulls to redline. I generally run between 3,500 to 6,000 rpm. The cam works really good in this range. I can accelerate in 5th gear which before the bike would take time to increase speed. I did have to replace the clutch springs, after the cam job I would spin the clutch...Don't chase HP that is one number...you need increasing torque curve
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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This is all really good and helpful advice. You guys are great. Thanks.  I will probably do the cams in conjunction with a bigger bore and maybe head work down the line sometime. I can't really justify the expense ATM. Meantime I think I will gut the air box, get some new Magnecor plug leads and plugs and get the girl tuned. This will at least give me a baseline for when I make further improvements. And I will definitely drop from 18 to 17 teeth in the front.
Cheers, Richard
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09 America, Staintune Pipes, K&N, Breathe, Hagon Nitros, AI & O2 removed, tune 20184 (modified), MTX-L a/f gauge
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
Quote:
Would this be more accurately described as:
torque (acceleration): less teeth front, more teeth rear
Top speed: more teeth front, less teeth rear. ?
yeah. that sounds better.
Most times, BUT NOT ALL TIMES! 
And ONLY to a point.
And you may see me tonight
With an illegal smile
J. Prine
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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Yeah but more accurate than 'power'.
Cheers, Richard
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09 America, Staintune Pipes, K&N, Breathe, Hagon Nitros, AI & O2 removed, tune 20184 (modified), MTX-L a/f gauge
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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Loquacious
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And you may see me tonight
With an illegal smile
J. Prine
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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i WAS gonna leave this alone. no, top speed isn't more accurate than power. it sounds better for this discussion, but i had it right.
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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OK.  I'm self taught mechanically. It's sort of like the blind (me) leading the blind (also me). I may not always get to the right destination. But when you're blind any destination will do. 
Cheers, Richard
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09 America, Staintune Pipes, K&N, Breathe, Hagon Nitros, AI & O2 removed, tune 20184 (modified), MTX-L a/f gauge
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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Joined: Feb 2008
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Loquacious
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Quote:
...You have to have, more power than stock, to really appreciate the higher ratios, IMHO.
Very true!
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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Loquacious
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Quote:
...The shop also indicated that if I did the big bore w/o cams I would likely be back soon for them...
Your shop spoke the truth. OEM 865 cams belong in a farm implement, not a BA or SM. The 790 motors don't need cam replacement. The 865 motors, however, really do, at least if you want them to perform all the way through the rev range, & even more so with a rev limit bump. One may not realize just how poorly 865 cams perform until they are replaced with something better.
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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3/4 Throttle
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3/4 Throttle
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+1 on BO2S4 said......that is my experience...like I posted 790 cam I had to go with heaver clutch spring because I could spin the clutch after my cam change
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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Bad news  I just had the K&N out to clean and I checked out the air box baffle. Bad news - it's not removable. TTP performance figures for the Breathe are mainly benefited by the airbox baffle removal (IMO) and on investigation their performance figures and baffle removal are all based on a 790 Bonneville. There is a moulded baffle in our air box with two holes facing the main intakes but it is an inherent part of the air box. It can only be removed or opened up further by plastic surgery - the invasive kind. Anyone know who has done this and what shape and success they had? Or I could be brave/rash and start amputating! But it won't be reversible if it worsens performance.  Edit: I will start a new thread on Gutted Air Box to get more readership. But if you have ideas on performance please feel welcome to continue contributing to this thread.
Last edited by foglefar; 10/20/2012 12:37 AM.
Cheers, Richard
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09 America, Staintune Pipes, K&N, Breathe, Hagon Nitros, AI & O2 removed, tune 20184 (modified), MTX-L a/f gauge
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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Loquacious
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A follow up to my prior message: as you may know my 865 has 813 cams, along with a few other mods. It is a complete joy to ride; starts immediately, will idle smoothly all day, gets decent fuel economy, cruises smoothly, and pulls pretty strong to redline for what it is. It also pulls smoothly from under 2k. Now much of that is attributed to advance CV carb tuning, however some of it is no-doubt cam-related.
My bike hasn't been on a dyno in quite awhile, however I estimate SAE DJ RWHP in the mid 60's & torque in the low 50's.
With decent cams I think your bike can do better, with optimal EFI mapping.
Remember, it's what's "under the curve" that counts!
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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Yes, from the hundreds of forum posts I've read in the last few days (I've been home with the flu), I think your estimate on your figures is correct. The 813s cams would probably be my choice over other cams. But in a perfect world i would want to combine it with a big bore, ported heads, high compression pistons and maybe oversize valves. And then if you're doing all that then it makes sense to do the rods and crank as well. Where does it stop?
Cheers, Richard
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09 America, Staintune Pipes, K&N, Breathe, Hagon Nitros, AI & O2 removed, tune 20184 (modified), MTX-L a/f gauge
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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Loquacious
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Quote:
...And then if you're doing all that then it makes sense to do the rods and crank as well. Where does it stop?
Not necessarily. Stroker cranks involve splitting the cases & there's a whole lot more work involved with that beyond simply pulling the cylinder barrels & swapping out the pistons.
Where does it stop? You need to ask yourself what your goals & objectives are, & why. What are you after?
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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Yes, you're absolutely right, I was getting carried away writing my post. I should have added one of these ... 
Cheers, Richard
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09 America, Staintune Pipes, K&N, Breathe, Hagon Nitros, AI & O2 removed, tune 20184 (modified), MTX-L a/f gauge
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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3/4 Throttle
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I need to add: I have K&N pods and BC cocktail shaker exhaust. I would go here http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technical-talk/ they have posts about modifying the existing air box.
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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Member
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Taking out the air box baffle is no big deal. And it will make a significant difference in performance. To remove the baffle I heated up a putty knife with a butane torch, then used it to slice away the baffle. If you really want to do it right, pull the air box out and when you slice the baffle out you can use a dremel to clean things up. I liked the improvement so much that I soon after went back and eliminated the air box and installed pod filters. These engines respond well to the changes that let them breathe easier.
08 America, A/I &, Calif emissions "stuff" gone, air box removed & battery relocated, billet intakes, UNI Pods, 145 mains, 42 pilots, Stage 2 igniter, intminators, 813 cams, Progressive 412's, modified seat.
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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Quote:
I need to add: I have K&N pods and BC cocktail shaker exhaust. I would go here http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technical-talk/ they have posts about modifying the existing air box.
Thanks for the info and the link. I have been reading a huge amount in the Twin Tech forum there over the last week (been home sick with the flu). It has been helpful in a lot of areas but the air box discussions are mostly concerning Bonnevilles and Scramblers. The latter has been helpful with 270 cam performance but not much experimental air box stuff there for our bikes.
Cheers, Richard
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09 America, Staintune Pipes, K&N, Breathe, Hagon Nitros, AI & O2 removed, tune 20184 (modified), MTX-L a/f gauge
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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Stan, did you do the gut before or after you installed the 813s? The heated putty knife is a nice idea. I am currently thinking of getting a second air box to study and do the work on and then swapping them over. That way I won't be in a hurry to get the bike back on the road. I can also investigate whether internal velocity stacks can be fitted after the gut.
Anyone know if there is any diff between the 790 and 865 EFI air boxes? Benny (island bum) has offered me his 790 but I don't want to do the work and then not have it fit!
Cheers, Richard
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09 America, Staintune Pipes, K&N, Breathe, Hagon Nitros, AI & O2 removed, tune 20184 (modified), MTX-L a/f gauge
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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Quote:
The air boxes are very similar...you can use the ideas here:
http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technica...-and-so-on.html
Post 8 Air Removal and/or Modifications
Thanks I think have read most of those. I assume you mean the 360s and 270 scrambler air boxes are similar to ours. In some ways maybe, but they appear quite different when it comes to trying to fit in velocity stacks.
Cheers, Richard
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09 America, Staintune Pipes, K&N, Breathe, Hagon Nitros, AI & O2 removed, tune 20184 (modified), MTX-L a/f gauge
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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1700cc Storm Richard! Very nice!!!!!! 
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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Ha ha. I wasn't too impressed with the ground clearance of that one on the dragon. As heavy as a rocket too. Dont misunderstand me, I'm not getting dissatisfied. No I really love my America, agile, flickable, i can lane filter with ease, grunty, holds up to my mates Ducati 1000. I just like tweaking and modding and customizing so its more unique. 
Cheers, Richard
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09 America, Staintune Pipes, K&N, Breathe, Hagon Nitros, AI & O2 removed, tune 20184 (modified), MTX-L a/f gauge
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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Quote:
I just like tweaking and modding and customizing so its more unique
Couldn't agree more on that one Richard. The feeling that comes with changing something on these bikes and either seeing, feeling (as in your case with torque increases) or even hearing is highly addictive. I guess that what makes our bikes so unique.
Staintune Pipes, K&N Pods, 45 pilots, TBS needles and 145 mains.
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Re: Re-thinking performance
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Complete Newb
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Complete Newb
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changing front tooth ratio has bigger effect for 1 tooth at time, 17f to 43 rear = 2,52 to one ratio, 18f to 43 rear = 2.38 , doing rear 17f to 42 rear = 2.47 17f to 41 rear = 2.411 to one, but changing front sprocket especially down massively increases forces on chain- much tighter curve around sprocket
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