Bonneville America Forums Forums Technical Forums General Tech No start but has juice (?)

Ladies and Gentlemen of the Forum -

I come to you a man in need. 2009 America will not start, everything is normal lights and gauges, press start, get a click, and a slight vibration from under my right thigh as I sit on the bike. I _assume_ that is a relay or solenoid doing that.

Some of you may recall I had battery problems a yr or so ago. I replaced it w/ an expensive if not extravagant Yuasa unit which I think was the OEM part #. I had _hoped_ that the knucklehead that installed the battery (yours truly) hadn't tightened the connectors well, and they had come loose. So I removed the connectors, and put them back on, same thing.

The bike is kept in a garage, and has never been rained on since last night.

I evacuated the battery to my warm and dry apartment, put it on the charger, the charger is says the battery is green and happy. No, no di-electric grease. I know.

Other than the battery, I hope there is a simple inexpensive relay at issue. I beseech thee for guidance, suggestions, and any other help you may offer...

Thank you.

New Battery was installed February 2011.

Somebody may have a better idea, but the hillbilly way to check for a bad starter solenoid is to turn key to on/run and take a piece of conductive metal and jump it between the two big poles on said solenoid, if she cranks, change it out, no spin, start looking again.

I thought about that, but don't even know where it is on a BA. Under the right side plastic cover? Would that damage anything once or twice?

It is under the right hand side cover. When you jumper it, make sure the bike is in neutral. Rather than just jumper the solenoid with a screwdriver, you could hit the power side of the solenoid with power jumpered from the battery. If it starts, then the solenoid is ok. You would then have to check the starter relay.

It sounds like the ECM (computer) won't allow the bike to start. ths can be because of one of several reasons. Namely, low battery, one of several cut out switches misbehaving or the headlight relay. Others may chime in here with additional ideas/causes.

Don't discount the battery yet. It is nearly 2 years old now - the standard life of a lead acid battery. Just because it accepts a charge and the charger says it's full doesnt mean that it will hold that charge under load. Your 09 requires more than 11.6v under load before the ECM will let you start. I would try starting the bike off a known good battery to eliminate the battery as the cause. I experienced the exact same thing with my Yuasa. I switched to a lithium iron potassium battery ( a Shorai ) and will never go back to lead acid.

Next try check the cut out switches ... The kickstand, the clutch control and the gearbox.

Finally you could replace the relays (headlight and starter). But I think you will find that the battery is the cause.

Good luck.

Thank you for the quick and probably more important, insightful replies.

I had the day off yesterday, so I had more to be thankful for than I wanted to admit.

Nonetheless, simple battery charging did the trick. I need to get some dielectric grease and think about why the battery would have been weak.

As ever, commentary and suggestions welcome.

As I mentioned, I had problems keeping a charge with my Yuasa. This was due mainly to my short daily commute. This resulted in very little charging time and 2-3 starts per day. When my second battery failed I did some research on batteries. I learned that lead acid batteries don't like going under 80% charge (a deep cycle) and they will only deep cycle a few times (3-5) before they start losing capacity to hold a charge.

My previous bike didn't go through batteries as rapidly despite the same routine. I discovered that the Triumph R/R is not as powerful/efficient as it could be and, more importantly, the charge cable from the R/R to the battery is undersize.

My remedies are detailed in this post.

In brief in order of effectiveness:
1. Upgrade (heavier) and shorten the cable from the R/R direct to the battery. A cheap fix.
2. Use a good quality trickle charger if your bike doesn't run regularly or only runs for short trips.
3. Check and upgrade your connections - battery, also to and from the R/R.
4. Get a Shorai LiFePo (lithium iron potassium) battery. Deep cycles many times more than lead acid. Tolerates dropping to 50% charge. Carries a bigger charge for longer. Much more powerful, smaller and lighter. Lead acid batteries are old technology.
5. Replace your R/R with a mosfet (superconductor) R/R from an R1 Honda.
6. Fit an onboard voltmeter to monitor your charging/battery status.
7. Fit a bypass switch for the ECM low voltage cut out. This enables you to start the bike with less than 11.6volts. Only recommended for emergency use because damage to the ECM could result with low voltage.

You probably only need to do the first 2-3 easy fixes. The rest is if you are really enthusiastic (read obsessive) like me.

Silly me, what is an R/R? Ahhh.... regulator/rectifier. Very nice write up. Thank you.

Looks impressive. I wonder how it compares with my Li Fe Po battery? Do you have an idea of price?

Edit...

Never mind, I have just found the specs to compare. They are almost identical - both are LiFePo both are 18a/hr same weight but the EXT is slightly larger (not important because they are smaller than lead so both need packing) and slight more expensive ($30) than the Shorai. Either are an excellent upgrade from lead.

Better yet, the market should create a smaller, bolt-on, battery box.

Great idea!

There are smaller bolt on battery boxes made for HD that it wouldn't take much to adapt. They are for old kick only sportys.

I appear to have isolated my problem to the switch in the housing of the Triumph auxiliary lights. i will have to see about having it tested, replaced, and/or rewired.

MW,
One thing that happens to lead acid batteries in storage is chemistry. Over time the sulphur in the electrolyte migrates to the lead; left to its own devices it hardens and then normal charging doesn't break it free from the lead plates. This in turn gives you a false reading and a battery that runs out of juice at an abnormal pace. Judicious trickle charging keeps your lead acid battery healthy over long periods of rest and non use. Think battery tender and apply once every couple of weeks during extended storage.

My battery weirdness continues, albiet not as frequently.
I had been convinced it was related to the auxhilary lights and my lack of confidence in the dealer that installed them. And then there is the fact that the problem started shortly after I washed the bike, which I do not do anymore.

2-3 days ago, I went out, starter would click, no crank. I came back 2-3 days later, started right up, w/o having done anything to it at all. I have a feeling my problem is a relay.

Once about a year ago, it did not wanna start and just clicked. I messed w/ the shifter, started right up.

Ideas, criticisms, jokes??

I would look at the relay under the tank and next time it doesn't crank try jumping the solenoid.

Hmm.. good advice, but...
Any idea which of the relays?
Assuming the solenoid is on the starter... where is the starter?
God I feel dumb asking that q:.

the solenoid is under the seat, the starter is in front of the engine, near the foot control bar

I have to get a manual.. Overdue.

The solenoid is under the right side cover if you still have the air box in place.

4 years on and I am still dealing w/ this and about to throw money at it, i.e., take it to a Triumph mechanic I trust.

I feel crappy saying "phantom electrical problem".

I think you're way ahead just to have a Triumph mechanic you can trust!

It has gotten so bad over the years, I broke down and took it to a dealer. The service guy sort of mocked the EFI on the 2009-2010s. I know they simpler than what they are selling now, but... whatever.

He indicated that the computer keeps certain of the electronics fully on up to 2 hours after turned off and key removed. I can not imagine why, but I believe him. He said there is a "city tune" for the computer to help this. I wonder how that will play with my TORs, but suppose I will fine out in a few weeks.

I am pretty certain there is also a short in the neutral switch and or side stand switch or somewhere. Had to throw money at it...

A couple of things. I consider a mosfet R/R to be a mandatory upgrade. This one from Rick's Motorsports is plug and play . https://ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/Hot-Shot-Triumph-Rectifier-Regulator-10_004H
Second, there is a proper way to set up a Yuasa lead acid battery, you can't just dump the electrolyte solution in, put the battery in bike, take off and expect it to last. The instructions for proper set are here. http://www.atbatt.com/motorcycle-batteries/how-to-fill-and-charge-yuasa-ytx14-bs-motorcycle-battery

OK, but what is the benefit of the MOSFET component?