 Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 593
Adjunct
|
Adjunct
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 593 |
Quote:
Even the news is no longer believable, because they load it so full of opinion, they even make up large bits of it. Everyone has an agenda it seems now days, and they have to publicise it.
If you want a great example of check out the headlines for the same story from a number of different sources.
Quote:
I watched a Youtube video the other day where a couple of fellows took to an environmental awareness rally, to see what was up. They made a petition to have hydrogendioxcide banned and everyone at the rally they asked to sign the petition did it without question. Thats H2O or water. They blindly signed a petition to have a federal ban on water.
This is somewhat a different issue. It plays on the ignorance of the general public and their general mistrust of chemicals. It also shows how willing most people are to defer their opinion to anyone who sounds like they know what they are talking about. I really believe people should have to pass a test before voting.
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
|
|
Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
|
|
Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
You know, when they talk about assets, it's tricky. If you have assets of a million dollars in Bad Breath, Oklahoma, you're not necessarily wealthy but you have security.
If you have assets of a million bucks in NYC it means you're the co-owner a 1 bedroom condo.
Where I live it's a pretty reasonable cost of living, probably somewhere in the middle, but I wouldn't quit working because I had assets of a million bucks. Maybe in 1963 but not today. We saw five years ago how quickly a million buck can be cut in half.
I'd have to have at least two, if not three, times that before I would ever think about quitting work entirely. We are lucky in that we've managed to retire most of our debts but I just can't imagine completely cutting off the cash flow unless I had WAY more than a million bucks in assets. You're talking one bad accident or an organ failure from a bad medication between you and bankruptcy.
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1
Second Wind
|
|
OP
Second Wind
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1 |
You are correct Smokey. You don't find that a bit perplexing? The disparity that is?
One million bucks in Houston means you have a good retirement plan but better still be carefull or you will come up short.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
|
|
Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
Sure, it's perplexing.
So is some guy that produces absolutely nothing taking home a hundred million dollars a year.
I'm waaaay more comfortable with some guy who is putting his a$$ on the line on Sundays getting a big paycheck than some dweeb that found a flaw in the system scoring a billion bucks because he's found a nifty way to steal it.
Personally, I think those guys(which includes members of my own family) are gonna rot in he11.
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
|
|
New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
In this economy a million in hard assets won't protect you, especially when one considers whats coming down the pike. A million in cash might.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,669
Learned Hand
|
|
Learned Hand
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,669 |
Well if I had a million in cash I know I couldn't completly quit working either, but it would be hard as he11 for them to get me to work any overtime. Now if I got a sweet lifetime payout of lets say 100k a year, my arce would be on the beach right about now with a nice cold one in my hand.
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
|
|
New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
Quote:
Sure, it's perplexing.
So is some guy that produces absolutely nothing taking home a hundred million dollars a year.
I'm waaaay more comfortable with some guy who is putting his a$$ on the line on Sundays getting a big paycheck than some dweeb that found a flaw in the system scoring a billion bucks because he's found a nifty way to steal it.
Personally, I think those guys(which includes members of my own family) are gonna rot in he11.
I assume you are comparing pro ball players to the Ivy Leaguers on Wall Street. Both earn what the market will bare relative to the size of their perspective market size. Both are subject to the rule of law or rules. Hypothetically, if the NFL shutdown, other than sports bar and beer sales revenues, what economic dislocations would take place? Would we survive? What would happen if Wall Street went on strike, economic armageddon? They finance the NFL, retirements and going concerns that produce things. So which has more responsibility and gets compensated for it.
Off the top of my head I can think of six news worthy "Wall Streeters" that have stolen, five have been prosecuted or are in jail, one won't be prosecuted and is free for reasons we are not allowed to talk about.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
|
|
Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
Quote:
Quote:
Sure, it's perplexing.
So is some guy that produces absolutely nothing taking home a hundred million dollars a year.
I'm waaaay more comfortable with some guy who is putting his a$$ on the line on Sundays getting a big paycheck than some dweeb that found a flaw in the system scoring a billion bucks because he's found a nifty way to steal it.
Personally, I think those guys(which includes members of my own family) are gonna rot in he11.
I assume you are comparing pro ball players to the Ivy Leaguers on Wall Street. Both earn what the market will bare relative to the size of their perspective market size. Both are subject to the rule of law or rules. Hypothetically, if the NFL shutdown, other than sports bar and beer sales revenues, what economic dislocations would take place? Would we survive? What would happen if Wall Street went on strike, economic armageddon? They finance the NFL, retirements and going concerns that produce things. So which has more responsibility and gets compensated for it.
Off the top of my head I can think of six news worthy "Wall Streeters" that have stolen, five have been prosecuted or are in jail, one won't be prosecuted and is free for reasons we are not allowed to talk about.
Here's the thing, it is perfectly legal to borrow money to buy a business, then transferred that debt back to the business bought, sell off portions of the business to service that debt, then have the business borrow even more money to pay yourself outrageous management fees and bonuses which quite often drives the company into bankruptcy.
That is all perfectly legal and the folks that do that for a living walk away with boatloads of money. Unfortunately, the people that worked at those businesses end up on the street with the pensions they had paid into for twenty years now either gone or having to be serviced by the federal government insurance on them.
Those are the kind of business practices that may be legal but are inherently evil.
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
|
|
New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Sure, it's perplexing.
So is some guy that produces absolutely nothing taking home a hundred million dollars a year.
I'm waaaay more comfortable with some guy who is putting his a$$ on the line on Sundays getting a big paycheck than some dweeb that found a flaw in the system scoring a billion bucks because he's found a nifty way to steal it.
Personally, I think those guys(which includes members of my own family) are gonna rot in he11.
I assume you are comparing pro ball players to the Ivy Leaguers on Wall Street. Both earn what the market will bare relative to the size of their perspective market size. Both are subject to the rule of law or rules. Hypothetically, if the NFL shutdown, other than sports bar and beer sales revenues, what economic dislocations would take place? Would we survive? What would happen if Wall Street went on strike, economic armageddon? They finance the NFL, retirements and going concerns that produce things. So which has more responsibility and gets compensated for it.
Off the top of my head I can think of six news worthy "Wall Streeters" that have stolen, five have been prosecuted or are in jail, one won't be prosecuted and is free for reasons we are not allowed to talk about.
Here's the thing, it is perfectly legal to borrow money to buy a business, then transferred that debt back to the business bought, sell off portions of the business to service that debt, then have the business borrow even more money to pay yourself outrageous management fees and bonuses which quite often drives the company into bankruptcy.
That is all perfectly legal and the folks that do that for a living walk away with boatloads of money. Unfortunately, the people that worked at those businesses end up on the street with the pensions they had paid into for twenty years now either gone or having to be serviced by the federal government insurance on them.
Those are the kind of business practices that may be legal but are inherently evil.
If you are talking about the company previously know as Armco Steel- KC, you have no idea of what actually happened or the time line. In the end what shut that plant down was the dumping of steel from abroad and the union decision to strike in the middle of modernizing the plant, along with vandalizing and thuggery than went along with it. My friends that worked there on retrospect believe they misplayed their hand in that regard. It's sad that plant had been in KC for a hundred years, with binoculars I can see the site from me backyard. By the way the gentleman that spoke at last week's party never worked where he said he did, he lied, he was an paid union official.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 885 Likes: 2
3/4 Throttle
|
|
3/4 Throttle
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 885 Likes: 2 |
Do you know why they went on strike? And do you know why taxpayers had to wind up footing a $44 million shortfall in their pension fund after they closed down? It's not quite as cut and dried as many would like to believe. And while it may be legal, it certainly isn't helping America in any way other than to line the pockets of the vulture capitalists.
Cheers,
Brad
To be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid.
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
|
|
Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Sure, it's perplexing.
So is some guy that produces absolutely nothing taking home a hundred million dollars a year.
I'm waaaay more comfortable with some guy who is putting his a$$ on the line on Sundays getting a big paycheck than some dweeb that found a flaw in the system scoring a billion bucks because he's found a nifty way to steal it.
Personally, I think those guys(which includes members of my own family) are gonna rot in he11.
I assume you are comparing pro ball players to the Ivy Leaguers on Wall Street. Both earn what the market will bare relative to the size of their perspective market size. Both are subject to the rule of law or rules. Hypothetically, if the NFL shutdown, other than sports bar and beer sales revenues, what economic dislocations would take place? Would we survive? What would happen if Wall Street went on strike, economic armageddon? They finance the NFL, retirements and going concerns that produce things. So which has more responsibility and gets compensated for it.
Off the top of my head I can think of six news worthy "Wall Streeters" that have stolen, five have been prosecuted or are in jail, one won't be prosecuted and is free for reasons we are not allowed to talk about.
Here's the thing, it is perfectly legal to borrow money to buy a business, then transferred that debt back to the business bought, sell off portions of the business to service that debt, then have the business borrow even more money to pay yourself outrageous management fees and bonuses which quite often drives the company into bankruptcy.
That is all perfectly legal and the folks that do that for a living walk away with boatloads of money. Unfortunately, the people that worked at those businesses end up on the street with the pensions they had paid into for twenty years now either gone or having to be serviced by the federal government insurance on them.
Those are the kind of business practices that may be legal but are inherently evil.
If you are talking about the company previously know as Armco Steel- KC, you have no idea of what actually happened or the time line. In the end what shut that plant down was the dumping of steel from abroad and the union decision to strike in the middle of modernizing the plant, along with vandalizing and thuggery than went along with it. My friends that worked there on retrospect believe they misplayed their hand in that regard. It's sad that plant had been in KC for a hundred years, with binoculars I can see the site from me backyard. By the way the gentleman that spoke at last week's party never worked where he said he did, he lied, he was an paid union official.
Actually, I wasn't. I was addressing an actual business model for a certain company. Not their only model but one that has been repeated several times much to their financial benefit leaving workers and sometimes towns in their wake. I'd post a link or additional info but it would be crossing the politics line.
That's not the point, though. It doesn't matter who it is. It's just that, just because something CAN be done without breaking the law and will make you very rich doesn't mean it is right or even decent. There are plenty of things that can be done in business legally that are nonetheless despicable. Legality shouldn't be the ONLY bar one needs to clear.
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 593
Adjunct
|
|
Adjunct
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 593 |
Quote:
.... Both earn what the market will bare relative to the size of their perspective market size. Both are subject to the rule of law or rules. ....
I have to disagree, or at least amend slightly, that statement. At least in Canada sports teams are subsidised. The government gives tax breaks so that large corporations can get a tax break on buying sports tickets. Effectively the government is paying to send rich people to watch sporting events and justifying it by saying that the teams require subsidies. Any business that requires subsidies is taking more than the market will bare.
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
|
|
New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
Quote:
Do you know why they went on strike? And do you know why taxpayers had to wind up footing a $44 million shortfall in their pension fund after they closed down? It's not quite as cut and dried as many would like to believe. And while it may be legal, it certainly isn't helping America in any way other than to line the pockets of the vulture capitalists.
Cheers,
Brad
Can you name me any steel or any union manufacturer that went into chapter 13 without the feds picking up the tab for underfunded retirement plans? Yes, they struck to force the corporation to fully fund the plan and increased wages in the middle of the plant modernization, they got it, which doomed the plant. In the end they got screwed, the bankruptcy court denied those gains citing that it was instrumental in bankrupting the company. By the way those "vulture capitalist" saved them from chapter 13 in the first place and the retirement plan was underfunded at that time. The union was never interested in the company's survival, they just wanted their retirement.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
|
|
New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Sure, it's perplexing.
So is some guy that produces absolutely nothing taking home a hundred million dollars a year.
I'm waaaay more comfortable with some guy who is putting his a$$ on the line on Sundays getting a big paycheck than some dweeb that found a flaw in the system scoring a billion bucks because he's found a nifty way to steal it.
Personally, I think those guys(which includes members of my own family) are gonna rot in he11.
I assume you are comparing pro ball players to the Ivy Leaguers on Wall Street. Both earn what the market will bare relative to the size of their perspective market size. Both are subject to the rule of law or rules. Hypothetically, if the NFL shutdown, other than sports bar and beer sales revenues, what economic dislocations would take place? Would we survive? What would happen if Wall Street went on strike, economic armageddon? They finance the NFL, retirements and going concerns that produce things. So which has more responsibility and gets compensated for it.
Off the top of my head I can think of six news worthy "Wall Streeters" that have stolen, five have been prosecuted or are in jail, one won't be prosecuted and is free for reasons we are not allowed to talk about.
Here's the thing, it is perfectly legal to borrow money to buy a business, then transferred that debt back to the business bought, sell off portions of the business to service that debt, then have the business borrow even more money to pay yourself outrageous management fees and bonuses which quite often drives the company into bankruptcy.
That is all perfectly legal and the folks that do that for a living walk away with boatloads of money. Unfortunately, the people that worked at those businesses end up on the street with the pensions they had paid into for twenty years now either gone or having to be serviced by the federal government insurance on them.
Those are the kind of business practices that may be legal but are inherently evil.
If you are talking about the company previously know as Armco Steel- KC, you have no idea of what actually happened or the time line. In the end what shut that plant down was the dumping of steel from abroad and the union decision to strike in the middle of modernizing the plant, along with vandalizing and thuggery than went along with it. My friends that worked there on retrospect believe they misplayed their hand in that regard. It's sad that plant had been in KC for a hundred years, with binoculars I can see the site from me backyard. By the way the gentleman that spoke at last week's party never worked where he said he did, he lied, he was an paid union official.
Actually, I wasn't. I was addressing an actual business model for a certain company. Not their only model but one that has been repeated several times much to their financial benefit leaving workers and sometimes towns in their wake. I'd post a link or additional info but it would be crossing the politics line.
That's not the point, though. It doesn't matter who it is. It's just that, just because something CAN be done without breaking the law and will make you very rich doesn't mean it is right or even decent. There are plenty of things that can be done in business legally that are nonetheless despicable. Legality shouldn't be the ONLY bar one needs to clear.
I agree with a "fair deal" done in good faith, but if someone tries to screw me all bets are off.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
|
|
New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
Quote:
Quote:
.... Both earn what the market will bare relative to the size of their perspective market size. Both are subject to the rule of law or rules. ....
I have to disagree, or at least amend slightly, that statement. At least in Canada sports teams are subsidised. The government gives tax breaks so that large corporations can get a tax break on buying sports tickets. Effectively the government is paying to send rich people to watch sporting events and justifying it by saying that the teams require subsidies. Any business that requires subsidies is taking more than the market will bare.
You mean, "you didn't build that". The sports complex subsidies happen here in the USA too.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
|
|
Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
It's interesting that CEOs and their supporters claim they are paid such huge sums because 'the market' says that's what they are worth. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The CEOs and hand picked boards determine their own pay and benefits package. 'The market' played no role in it at all. It was simply cronyism. The stockholders certainly didn't benefit because that money came right out of their pocket.
Want to see futility? Watch a simple shareholder actually try to get into a shareholders meeting to protest CEO pay. Security wouldn't let them get past the sidewalk. YouTube is loaded with videos of shareholders daring to attempt to get into shareholder meetings.
My late father-in-law once decided he'd go to a Southern Company stockholders' meeting. At the time he held over $2,000,000 in company stock (which is why my POS brother-in-law will never have to work). He got the most condescending letter you can imagine about how, unfortunately, small shareholders would not be allowed to attend.
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7
Monkey Butt
|
|
Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7 |
The problem with the news is not so much what they say as what they leave out. "Editorial Judgement" with some "News" organizations has become a real problem. Unfortunately that has spread to the "Fact Checkers" as well. Just tell me, is the comment/story factually accurate? I don't care if it can be twisted to make their opponents point, Is It True?
Lastly, apply the same standards to each side and each person.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7
Monkey Butt
|
|
Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7 |
Quote:
Do you know why they went on strike? And do you know why taxpayers had to wind up footing a $44 million shortfall in their pension fund after they closed down? It's not quite as cut and dried as many would like to believe. And while it may be legal, it certainly isn't helping America in any way other than to line the pockets of the vulture capitalists.
Cheers,
Brad
I wonder, how many companies and jobs were saved by those "Vulture Capitalists?" Those companies are in trouble before they are acquired and if the people who work at the companies refuse to help in saving them they have to accept at least part of the blame for killing them off. Without the so called "Vulture Capitalists" a lot more companies would have gone belly up.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
|
|
Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
Quote:
Quote:
Do you know why they went on strike? And do you know why taxpayers had to wind up footing a $44 million shortfall in their pension fund after they closed down? It's not quite as cut and dried as many would like to believe. And while it may be legal, it certainly isn't helping America in any way other than to line the pockets of the vulture capitalists.
Cheers,
Brad
I wonder, how many companies and jobs were saved by those "Vulture Capitalists?" Those companies are in trouble before they are acquired and if the people who work at the companies refuse to help in saving them they have to accept at least part of the blame for killing them off. Without the so called "Vulture Capitalists" a lot more companies would have gone belly up.
That's certainly true in some cases and in other cases it's just as true that VCs bought into healthy companies simply to loot them for personal gain. There is no single truth as to their motives nor the outcomes.
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1
Second Wind
|
|
OP
Second Wind
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1 |
Many groups just out live their usefulness.
I wonder how Templar knights would do today?
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
|
|
New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
Quote:
It's interesting that CEOs and their supporters claim they are paid such huge sums because 'the market' says that's what they are worth. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The CEOs and hand picked boards determine their own pay and benefits package. 'The market' played no role in it at all. It was simply cronyism. The stockholders certainly didn't benefit because that money came right out of their pocket.
Want to see futility? Watch a simple shareholder actually try to get into a shareholders meeting to protest CEO pay. Security wouldn't let them get past the sidewalk. YouTube is loaded with videos of shareholders daring to attempt to get into shareholder meetings.
My late father-in-law once decided he'd go to a Southern Company stockholders' meeting. At the time he held over $2,000,000 in company stock (which is why my POS brother-in-law will never have to work). He got the most condescending letter you can imagine about how, unfortunately, small shareholders would not be allowed to attend.
Not sure that's true of the Southern Company anymore. Now they mail corporate voting proxies to the shareholders, there is a ticket stub for the shareholders' meeting attached. The proxy also states where and directions to the meeting, the 2011 meet was in Georgia. Of course one can exercise proxy votes by mail or the internet, in person you need a picture ID. 
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
|
|
New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
Quote:
Many groups just out live their usefulness.
I wonder how Templar knights would do today?
We're doing well, we ride Triumphs and mostly F with folks on the internet. 
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 885 Likes: 2
3/4 Throttle
|
|
3/4 Throttle
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 885 Likes: 2 |
Quote:
Those companies are in trouble before they are acquired
Actually, only a relatively small amount.. the largest percentage of buyouts are from large corporations selling off divisions, and for leveraged buyouts, only 1% of are for distressed companies (source: Journal of Economic Perspectives--Volume 22, Number 4 - "Leveraged Buyouts and Private Equity").
You can argue specifics all day long, but the underlying theme is generally the same, regardless of the 'health' of the company being bought. That is, you use a small amount of cash to purchase a company, financing the remainder. You then assign the 'loan' to the company you just bought, then borrow some more to pay out huge dividends to the 'stockholders' so you can recoup your initial investment. At that point, the company is holding the debt, you have made your money back and then some, and it really doesn't matter what happens from there. Great for the few investors involved, but really sucks for the people who have spent their lives working for the company.
Cheers,
Brad
To be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid.
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
|
|
Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
Quote:
Quote:
It's interesting that CEOs and their supporters claim they are paid such huge sums because 'the market' says that's what they are worth. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The CEOs and hand picked boards determine their own pay and benefits package. 'The market' played no role in it at all. It was simply cronyism. The stockholders certainly didn't benefit because that money came right out of their pocket.
Want to see futility? Watch a simple shareholder actually try to get into a shareholders meeting to protest CEO pay. Security wouldn't let them get past the sidewalk. YouTube is loaded with videos of shareholders daring to attempt to get into shareholder meetings.
My late father-in-law once decided he'd go to a Southern Company stockholders' meeting. At the time he held over $2,000,000 in company stock (which is why my POS brother-in-law will never have to work). He got the most condescending letter you can imagine about how, unfortunately, small shareholders would not be allowed to attend.
Not sure that's true of the Southern Company anymore. Now they mail corporate voting proxies to the shareholders, there is a ticket stub for the shareholders' meeting attached. The proxy also states where and directions to the meeting, the 2011 meet was in Georgia. Of course one can exercise proxy votes by mail or the internet, in person you need a picture ID.
Yeah, I have a few shares myself. It's a really good investment.
Regarding my story, my wife is responsible and worked hard her whole life. She is a highly respected professional. She makes a good living, as do I.
Her brother is a POS, dropout, illegitimate children, the whole nine yards. Never worked an honest day in his life and was a thorn in his parents side up until 'ol Dad got cancer. F-I-L left him everything. His reasoning was that Ruth was smart and would do fine but Ross would always need help.
Ross is a real die hard conservative who considers anyone drawing unemployment or getting food stamps as parasites.
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
|
|
New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
It's interesting that CEOs and their supporters claim they are paid such huge sums because 'the market' says that's what they are worth. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The CEOs and hand picked boards determine their own pay and benefits package. 'The market' played no role in it at all. It was simply cronyism. The stockholders certainly didn't benefit because that money came right out of their pocket.
Want to see futility? Watch a simple shareholder actually try to get into a shareholders meeting to protest CEO pay. Security wouldn't let them get past the sidewalk. YouTube is loaded with videos of shareholders daring to attempt to get into shareholder meetings.
My late father-in-law once decided he'd go to a Southern Company stockholders' meeting. At the time he held over $2,000,000 in company stock (which is why my POS brother-in-law will never have to work). He got the most condescending letter you can imagine about how, unfortunately, small shareholders would not be allowed to attend.
Not sure that's true of the Southern Company anymore. Now they mail corporate voting proxies to the shareholders, there is a ticket stub for the shareholders' meeting attached. The proxy also states where and directions to the meeting, the 2011 meet was in Georgia. Of course one can exercise proxy votes by mail or the internet, in person you need a picture ID.
Yeah, I have a few shares myself. It's a really good investment.
Regarding my story, my wife is responsible and worked hard her whole life. She is a highly respected professional. She makes a good living, as do I.
Her brother is a POS, dropout, illegitimate children, the whole nine yards. Never worked an honest day in his life and was a thorn in his parents side up until 'ol Dad got cancer. F-I-L left him everything. His reasoning was that Ruth was smart and would do fine but Ross would always need help.
Ross is a real die hard conservative who considers anyone drawing unemployment or getting food stamps as parasites.
Sounds like I'd like to party with Ross.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
|
|
Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
It's interesting that CEOs and their supporters claim they are paid such huge sums because 'the market' says that's what they are worth. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The CEOs and hand picked boards determine their own pay and benefits package. 'The market' played no role in it at all. It was simply cronyism. The stockholders certainly didn't benefit because that money came right out of their pocket.
Want to see futility? Watch a simple shareholder actually try to get into a shareholders meeting to protest CEO pay. Security wouldn't let them get past the sidewalk. YouTube is loaded with videos of shareholders daring to attempt to get into shareholder meetings.
My late father-in-law once decided he'd go to a Southern Company stockholders' meeting. At the time he held over $2,000,000 in company stock (which is why my POS brother-in-law will never have to work). He got the most condescending letter you can imagine about how, unfortunately, small shareholders would not be allowed to attend.
Not sure that's true of the Southern Company anymore. Now they mail corporate voting proxies to the shareholders, there is a ticket stub for the shareholders' meeting attached. The proxy also states where and directions to the meeting, the 2011 meet was in Georgia. Of course one can exercise proxy votes by mail or the internet, in person you need a picture ID.
Yeah, I have a few shares myself. It's a really good investment.
Regarding my story, my wife is responsible and worked hard her whole life. She is a highly respected professional. She makes a good living, as do I.
Her brother is a POS, dropout, illegitimate children, the whole nine yards. Never worked an honest day in his life and was a thorn in his parents side up until 'ol Dad got cancer. F-I-L left him everything. His reasoning was that Ruth was smart and would do fine but Ross would always need help.
Ross is a real die hard conservative who considers anyone drawing unemployment or getting food stamps as parasites.
Sounds like I'd like to party with Ross.
Maybe so.
Gotta warn you, he's not very bright. In 5 years he'll be broke.
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7
Monkey Butt
|
|
Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7 |
Quote:
That's certainly true in some cases and in other cases it's just as true that VCs bought into healthy companies simply to loot them for personal gain. There is no single truth as to their motives nor the outcomes.
Well run and healthy companies cannot usually be bought for much less than the sum of their parts. Well run companies are usually worth MORE than their component parts, making them poor targets for those who want to buy them, strip them and dump them.
Troubled companies, on the other hand, are very vulnerable. Union problems, upside down pension obligations, poor management, too much debt or too much underutilized assets can make a company a tempting target.
Attacking private equity because some companies fail is like attacking doctors because some of their sick patients die. It's also a favorite tactic of a certain group of politicians who have never worked in, much less managed, anything in the private sector. Paying any heed to them on this subject is like listening to a group of fish gutters complaining about the technique of brain surgeons.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
|
|
New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
It's interesting that CEOs and their supporters claim they are paid such huge sums because 'the market' says that's what they are worth. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The CEOs and hand picked boards determine their own pay and benefits package. 'The market' played no role in it at all. It was simply cronyism. The stockholders certainly didn't benefit because that money came right out of their pocket.
Want to see futility? Watch a simple shareholder actually try to get into a shareholders meeting to protest CEO pay. Security wouldn't let them get past the sidewalk. YouTube is loaded with videos of shareholders daring to attempt to get into shareholder meetings.
My late father-in-law once decided he'd go to a Southern Company stockholders' meeting. At the time he held over $2,000,000 in company stock (which is why my POS brother-in-law will never have to work). He got the most condescending letter you can imagine about how, unfortunately, small shareholders would not be allowed to attend.
Not sure that's true of the Southern Company anymore. Now they mail corporate voting proxies to the shareholders, there is a ticket stub for the shareholders' meeting attached. The proxy also states where and directions to the meeting, the 2011 meet was in Georgia. Of course one can exercise proxy votes by mail or the internet, in person you need a picture ID.
Yeah, I have a few shares myself. It's a really good investment.
Regarding my story, my wife is responsible and worked hard her whole life. She is a highly respected professional. She makes a good living, as do I.
Her brother is a POS, dropout, illegitimate children, the whole nine yards. Never worked an honest day in his life and was a thorn in his parents side up until 'ol Dad got cancer. F-I-L left him everything. His reasoning was that Ruth was smart and would do fine but Ross would always need help.
Ross is a real die hard conservative who considers anyone drawing unemployment or getting food stamps as parasites.
Sounds like I'd like to party with Ross.
Maybe so.
Gotta warn you, he's not very bright. In 5 years he'll be broke.
He might not be conservative, he might just want those folks' unemployment payments to run out so they aren't counted as unemployed.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7
Monkey Butt
|
|
Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7 |
Quote:
Many groups just out live their usefulness.
I wonder how Templar knights would do today?
One theory is that they started the big banks of Switzerland.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
|
|
Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
|
|
Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
It's interesting that CEOs and their supporters claim they are paid such huge sums because 'the market' says that's what they are worth. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The CEOs and hand picked boards determine their own pay and benefits package. 'The market' played no role in it at all. It was simply cronyism. The stockholders certainly didn't benefit because that money came right out of their pocket.
Want to see futility? Watch a simple shareholder actually try to get into a shareholders meeting to protest CEO pay. Security wouldn't let them get past the sidewalk. YouTube is loaded with videos of shareholders daring to attempt to get into shareholder meetings.
My late father-in-law once decided he'd go to a Southern Company stockholders' meeting. At the time he held over $2,000,000 in company stock (which is why my POS brother-in-law will never have to work). He got the most condescending letter you can imagine about how, unfortunately, small shareholders would not be allowed to attend.
Not sure that's true of the Southern Company anymore. Now they mail corporate voting proxies to the shareholders, there is a ticket stub for the shareholders' meeting attached. The proxy also states where and directions to the meeting, the 2011 meet was in Georgia. Of course one can exercise proxy votes by mail or the internet, in person you need a picture ID.
Yeah, I have a few shares myself. It's a really good investment.
Regarding my story, my wife is responsible and worked hard her whole life. She is a highly respected professional. She makes a good living, as do I.
Her brother is a POS, dropout, illegitimate children, the whole nine yards. Never worked an honest day in his life and was a thorn in his parents side up until 'ol Dad got cancer. F-I-L left him everything. His reasoning was that Ruth was smart and would do fine but Ross would always need help.
Ross is a real die hard conservative who considers anyone drawing unemployment or getting food stamps as parasites.
Sounds like I'd like to party with Ross.
Maybe so.
Gotta warn you, he's not very bright. In 5 years he'll be broke.
He might not be conservative, he might just want those folks' unemployment payments to run out so they aren't counted as unemployed.
He's VERY conservative and he's incapable of thinking that far ahead.
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 885 Likes: 2
3/4 Throttle
|
|
3/4 Throttle
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 885 Likes: 2 |
Quote:
Attacking private equity because some companies fail is like attacking doctors because some of their sick patients die.
I'm not sure anyone is actually arguing that Larry.. at least, I'm not. They are however perhaps higher profile due to the end results to the work force and their effects on the job market. In fact, if you look at the numbers, since the number of distressed companies that are bought out is relatively small, so is the number of companies that fail after a buyout. Only 6% of buyouts from 1970 through 2007 resulted in a bankruptcy. The majority (68%) are eventually sold off in one way or another, usually after huge profits to the investors have been siphoned out of them.
Cheers,
Brad
To be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid.
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
|
|
New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
Funny, I ride by the old ARMCO Steel Plant site every time I go to the Triumph dealer. Prior to this quacky season, the reason for the ultimate closing and dismantling of the plant was foreign dumping of steel and the elected elites' failure to remedy it. That was the reasons given by both, unions and management, around 2000. "Vulture capitalists" weren't to blame when the KC Plant went belly up, the same year 31 steel manufacturers closed their doors in the USA. After he took office, W finally imposed sanctions on foreign steel dumping.
Less we forget, ARMCO had already decided to start winding down production and shutter the KC Plant in 1990 when the "vulture capitalists" entered negotiations to purchase it. After the take over and modernization started the plant actually became profitable, surprising since ARMCO had lost money for years. The "vulture capitalist" add nine years of life to that plant till USA made steel market environment shot craps. But, it's a "quacky year" so history must be rewritten.
Yes, that venture capital company had planned for an IPO, they weren't in the steel business, they were in the finance / management business. Much like Smokey's father-in-law, God rest his soul, and most stockholders in the Southern Company aren't in the electricity generation business, they are investors, capitalist.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 885 Likes: 2
3/4 Throttle
|
|
3/4 Throttle
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 885 Likes: 2 |
Quote:
the reason for the ultimate closing and dismantling of the plant was foreign dumping of steel and the elected elites' failure to remedy it.
It was a combination of many things.. increased competition from foreign companies, rising costs, mismanagement, a huge debt burden that they couldn't get out from under, along with bad timing. Like you said, half of the US steel factories went out of business around that time. Here is what they told the SEC in their filing:
Quote:
The voluntary bankruptcy filing was triggered by the combination of soaring imports of wire rod products into the United States, skyrocketing costs for electricity and natural gas, and the critical need to restructure the company's liabilities, according to Mark G. Essig, Chairman, President and Chief Executive Officer.
Source: http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/925906/000095014401002815/0000950144-01-002815.txt
Cheers,
Brad
To be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid.
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
|
|
New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
Quote:
Quote:
the reason for the ultimate closing and dismantling of the plant was foreign dumping of steel and the elected elites' failure to remedy it.
It was a combination of many things.. increased competition from foreign companies, rising costs, mismanagement, a huge debt burden that they couldn't get out from under, along with bad timing. Like you said, half of the US steel factories went out of business around that time. Here is what they told the SEC in their filing:
Quote:
The voluntary bankruptcy filing was triggered by the combination of soaring imports of wire rod products into the United States, skyrocketing costs for electricity and natural gas, and the critical need to restructure the company's liabilities, according to Mark G. Essig, Chairman, President and Chief Executive Officer.
Source: http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/925906/000095014401002815/0000950144-01-002815.txt
Cheers,
Brad
No doubt debt played a part, it always does in large capital investment operations, especially in manufacturing when the market drops out from underneath you. That's why GM was bailed out, debt and cost structure, unfortunately in GM's case the cost structure wasn't corrected.
There are very few corporations that self finance plant and equipment, or inventories for that matter.
Funny, I remember an argument between my uncle and I back in the late-70s, concerning ARMCO. He was an engineer for Burns & McDonald, he couldn't believe that as profitable and big as ARMCO Steel was they had to barrow money for operations, inventory and equipment. He's not an ignorant man, but he was like people that don't understand why Macys has sales, it's because the banks want their money back for financing Macys operations and inventories.
It's sort of like how new business owners never understand that making a profit doesn't mean there's cash in the bank.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 885 Likes: 2
3/4 Throttle
|
|
3/4 Throttle
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 885 Likes: 2 |
For a good read, check out their final annual report filed with the SEC in 2000.. http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/925906/0000950144-00-004200.txtYou might be surprised at how that debt was incurred and from where.. as well as some of their 'expenses'  Cheers, Brad
To be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid.
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
|
|
Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
Quote:
For a good read, check out their final annual report filed with the SEC in 2000.. http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/925906/0000950144-00-004200.txt
You might be surprised at how that debt was incurred and from where.. as well as some of their 'expenses'
Cheers,
Brad
Same way the K-B Toys acquired their debt.
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 885 Likes: 2
3/4 Throttle
|
|
3/4 Throttle
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 885 Likes: 2 |
Quote:
Same way the K-B Toys acquired their debt.
Much of it, yes.. but not all. However, it emphasizes the role of venture capital/private equity firms and shows how tenuous any attempt to link them to a greater good is. That is, unless you think that making money any way possible regardless of it's consequences to others is somehow a 'greater good'.
I think Allan Sloan, senior editor-at-large over at Fortune magazine (everyone reads Fortune, don't they!) expressed it extremely well in one of his more recent articles:
Quote:
Let's settle this once and for all, okay? Who's right? Neither. Despite buyouts being a numbers-intense business, there are no reliable statistics about jobs created or destroyed by private equity; no one in Buyout Land knows or wants to know about it. Bain and its fellow buyout barons don't care in the slightest about whether they create jobs or destroy them. All they care about is making money for their investors and themselves, not necessarily in that order.
Source: http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2012/07/16/romney-bain-private-equity/
This is not so much about Bain, but about the industry in general. It just so happens that the current 'quacky' time we are in has brought this type of business to a forefront.
And actually, various studies have shown that job creation/reduction is about a wash with buyouts.. they are simply a side consequence of the activity. Citing again from the Journal of Economic Perspectives, Vol 22 No. 4:
Quote:
Critics of leveraged buyouts often argue that these transactions benefit private equity investors at the expense of employees who suffer job and wage cuts. While such reductions would be consistent (and arguably expected) with productivity and operating improvements, the political implications of economic gains achieved in this manner would be more negative (for example, see comments from the Service Employees International Union, 2007).
Does that sound vaguely familiar or relevant given the rhetoric that has been flying around lately? And Allan then goes on to state what really is the stark truth:
Quote:
If the managers think there's money to be made by expanding and improving a business that they've bought, they will try to expand and improve it. If they think they can make more money by loading additional debt onto the company and sucking out the proceeds in dividends and fees, they'll load and suck. If they think there's more money to be made by firing all the U.S. employees and moving operations to China, they'll do so in a heartbeat. They're neither moral nor immoral when it comes to U.S. jobs and U.S. society. They're amoral—they don't care one way or the other, as long as what they're doing isn't illegal.
And that, I believe, we can all agree on 
Cheers,
Brad
To be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid.
|
|
|
Re: I couldn't think of a name for this thread.
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
|
|
Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
Quote:
Quote:
Same way the K-B Toys acquired their debt.
Much of it, yes.. but not all. However, it emphasizes the role of venture capital/private equity firms and shows how tenuous any attempt to link them to a greater good is. That is, unless you think that making money any way possible regardless of it's consequences to others is somehow a 'greater good'.
I think Allan Sloan, senior editor-at-large over at Fortune magazine (everyone reads Fortune, don't they!) expressed it extremely well in one of his more recent articles:
Quote:
Let's settle this once and for all, okay? Who's right? Neither. Despite buyouts being a numbers-intense business, there are no reliable statistics about jobs created or destroyed by private equity; no one in Buyout Land knows or wants to know about it. Bain and its fellow buyout barons don't care in the slightest about whether they create jobs or destroy them. All they care about is making money for their investors and themselves, not necessarily in that order.
Source: http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2012/07/16/romney-bain-private-equity/
This is not so much about Bain, but about the industry in general. It just so happens that the current 'quacky' time we are in has brought this type of business to a forefront.
And actually, various studies have shown that job creation/reduction is about a wash with buyouts.. they are simply a side consequence of the activity. Citing again from the Journal of Economic Perspectives, Vol 22 No. 4:
Quote:
Critics of leveraged buyouts often argue that these transactions benefit private equity investors at the expense of employees who suffer job and wage cuts. While such reductions would be consistent (and arguably expected) with productivity and operating improvements, the political implications of economic gains achieved in this manner would be more negative (for example, see comments from the Service Employees International Union, 2007).
Does that sound vaguely familiar or relevant given the rhetoric that has been flying around lately? And Allan then goes on to state what really is the stark truth:
Quote:
If the managers think there's money to be made by expanding and improving a business that they've bought, they will try to expand and improve it. If they think they can make more money by loading additional debt onto the company and sucking out the proceeds in dividends and fees, they'll load and suck. If they think there's more money to be made by firing all the U.S. employees and moving operations to China, they'll do so in a heartbeat. They're neither moral nor immoral when it comes to U.S. jobs and U.S. society. They're amoral—they don't care one way or the other, as long as what they're doing isn't illegal.
And that, I believe, we can all agree on
Cheers,
Brad
Bingo
|
|
|
|
|
