 Thoughts?
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
|
OP
Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
Just watched the news about the NYC shooter outside the Empire State Building. According to preliminary reports, two responding officers were standing approximately 8 feet from the shooter and fired sixteen rounds at him apparently striking 9 bystanders in the process. It is possible that some of the bystanders were struck by the primary shooter as well, but the report indicated they were more likely struck by errant police fire 8 feet from their target.
Thoughts?
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,485
Learned Hand
|
|
Learned Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,485 |
Just saw that. If true it makes you wonder if the LEO's ever stress-trained with their firearms.
"Despite all the amputation, you could dance to a rock 'n roll station..."
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 754
3/4 Throttle
|
|
3/4 Throttle
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 754 |
Spray and pray......what ever happened to aimed tactical counter fire. We really wont know until the EMR reports who was hit by whatever source of gunfire...the primary shooters or the LEO's return fire. At 8 ft it is hard to miss anything IME tho. But, What about the possibility of secondary strikes from thru & thru wounds????
Karl
Odessa, MO
'07 America, Cinnamon Girl (aka: Black Beauty or Ol' Penny) - Sit Down, Shut Up & Hang On
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
|
|
New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
Someone from NYC commented that NYC police are only required to go to the range once a year. 
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
|
|
New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
Terrible situation, but the surviving bystanders just hit the lotto.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 530
Adjunct
|
|
Adjunct
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 530 |
Thought? If reports are true, then the incompetence of the local government and their police force solidify the need for the true government (the people) to always be able to carry weapons (not just guns but authority to dismiss). Unfortunately the control has been wrested from the people and the governments' dog has been unleashed without oversight of their basic protective competencies. I don't see a way back and this is only a municipality (even though a massive one). Of course, that is if the reports are true. I don't have many other thoughts than that.
Oh yeah, the perpetrator is a dickhead
Last edited by beanache; 08/24/2012 8:39 PM.
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,060 Likes: 6
Worn Saddle
|
|
Worn Saddle
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,060 Likes: 6 |
Quote:
Terrible situation, but the surviving bystanders just hit the lotto.
Very true. Tough way to earn some money, though. 
Fidelis et Fortis
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
|
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Quote:
..Oh yeah, the perpetrator is a dickhead
Well, NOT to split participles here, Paul...BUT....
"NOT anymore!"
(...he's now layin' in the Coroner's Office sportin' a toe tag, ya see...so NOW he WAS a "dickhead"!) 
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
|
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Btw Chet, IF you'd care to hear MY "thoughts" about this news item, AND seein' as how another gentleman here has already stated HIS "thoughts" about it AND framed it in somewhat of a diatribe about his beliefs which reached FAR beyond the idea of a mentally disturbed individual apparently seeking some sort of revenge against an ex-coworker...well, MY thoughts are I just kinda wonder if NYC, one of the safest big cities in America, changed their gun ownership laws and allowed the 8 million people crammed together in that location there free and easy access to firearms AND allowed them to even CARRY them whenever and wherever they wanted to, IF NYC would still be one of "the safest Big Cities in America" within, say, half a decade??? (...yep, that's MY "thought" here, though as I hoped you've noticed, I DIDN'T attempt any ANSWER to the question I've just posed...and to be honest with ya here, I have a sneaky suspicion that THIS was the "thought" YOU might've had by even STARTIN' this thread in the FIRST place...AND a thread which I'll give exactly one more hour from now BEFORE it's locked....WANNA BET???!!!) 
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62
Fe Butt
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62 |
Average number of people killed in mass shootings stopped by police is 18.25 average number of people killed in mass shooting stopped by civilians is 2.2 so I say NYC would be an even safer city.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
|
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Well, maybe you're right, Ian...yep, maybe you're right. However, my question wasn't SOLELY framed within the context of "mass killings", and which specifically in the case of this incident today in NYC, wasn't a "mass killing". Nope, my question was geared more toward the TOTAL number of future singular murders perhaps perpretrated by people who would have been considered to be the least likely to have commited such an act beforehand. Nope, I wasn't narrowing the question THAT far down here, ol' buddy. But HEY, at LEAST you got your "guess" in here BEFORE this baby was locked, right?! (...I mean moe ALREADY had his hand upon that "Hammer of Smiting" yesterday and was ALL ready to use it on that reasonably TAME "Simple Question" "PHILOSOPHY" thread of Chad's, and so, like I said, I'll give THIS one all of maybe HALF an hour from now before the "smiting" begins...though I HAVE been wrong before around here, ya know!) 
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
|
|
OP
Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
Quote:
Average number of people killed in mass shootings stopped by police is 18.25 average number of people killed in mass shooting stopped by civilians is 2.2 so I say NYC would be an even safer city.
OK, I'm sorry. I have to call bulls$hit on that one. What is the organization that came up with that number? If it's the NRA I'm afraid Big Bird has more respected data.
Last edited by Smokey3214; 08/24/2012 11:23 PM.
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 490
Adjunct
|
|
Adjunct
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 490 |
I can hardly wait for the gun control lobby to chime in... seems the police could use some extra gun control training.
In my home Gun Control means hitting your target with the first shot.
Ride like you mean it.
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
|
|
Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
The two officers fired 16 rounds from about eight feet  One double tap should have been more then sufficient. If both officers fired at the same time, that's four rounds. And ALL should have struck the intended target. Now these are the people who should be trained and prepared to handle their firearms efficiently and as safely as possible in a crowded environment. Imagine if say, twenty bystanders pulled high capacity semi autos and started shooting as safely and efficiently as the trained professionals did in this case.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
|
|
New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
Is my eye sight bad or is that dead guy in the photo actually laying face down on the sidewalk with his hands cuffed behind his back?
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
|
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Yep, it looks like the corpse is cuffed alright, Mac. (...btw, WHAT?!..no love for my "Inspector Clouseau" joke THERE???!!!...I thought THAT was MOST apropos AND funny, DUDE!!!...I mean IF it turns out that all the bystanders WERE shot by the police, then WHO the hell would best represent that, HUH?!...YEAH, the bumbling CLOUSEAU!!!!...man, you guys REALLY let me down around here sometimes, ya know!!!)  
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,932 Likes: 2
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,932 Likes: 2 |
we should do this every weekend!
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62
Fe Butt
|
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62 |
Quote:
Quote:
Average number of people killed in mass shootings stopped by police is 18.25 average number of people killed in mass shooting stopped by civilians is 2.2 so I say NYC would be an even safer city.
OK, I'm sorry. I have to call bulls$hit on that one. What is the organization that came up with that number? If it's the NRA I'm afraid Big Bird has more respected data.
I find it quite credible, the innocent is more likely to defend themselves rather than talk about it ending it faster, probably one person firing back again less collateral damage. Gun control is controlling your gun, seems the police are unable to do that. How do you miss that badly from 8' away?!
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62
Fe Butt
|
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62 |
Quote:
Well, maybe you're right, Ian...yep, maybe you're right. However, my question wasn't SOLELY framed within the context of "mass killings", and which specifically in the case of this incident today in NYC, wasn't a "mass killing". Nope, my question was geared more toward the TOTAL number of future singular murders perhaps perpretrated by people who would have been considered to be the least likely to have commited such an act beforehand. Nope, I wasn't narrowing the question THAT far down here, ol' buddy.
But HEY, at LEAST you got your "guess" in here BEFORE this baby was locked, right?!
(...I mean moe ALREADY had his hand upon that "Hammer of Smiting" yesterday and was ALL ready to use it on that reasonably TAME "Simple Question" "PHILOSOPHY" thread of Chad's, and so, like I said, I'll give THIS one all of maybe HALF an hour from now before the "smiting" begins...though I HAVE been wrong before around here, ya know!)
Again , more likely to have dead criminals than innocents, not that it would always turn out that way.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62
Fe Butt
|
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62 |
No sense in arguing the point however since no one is going to change their minds on the subject.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
|
|
New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
The bad news, 19 people were shot is Chicago Thursday night. The good news, the police didn't accidentally shoot any of them.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
|
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Quote:
No sense in arguing the point however since no one is going to change their minds on the subject.
Well, of course not Ian. And THAT might be because there's seldom if ever any "rational middle ground" on this issue anymore.
NOPE! And THAT'S 'cause it seems way too often those in favor of strict gun control haven't a clue about firearms in the FIRST PLACE and seem to ONLY have a fear about them, AND THEN those who believe there should be NO laws WHATSOEVER about firearms often have an "all or nothing at all" attitude towards the issue ALSO!
And thus UNFORTUNATELY in this country NOWADAYS this issue ESPECIALLY seems to be a case similar to how Rudyard Kipling once described the cultural divid between the Occidental and Oriental.."East is east, and west is west, and never the twain shall meet".
(...in other words, NOBODY IN THIS FREAKIN' COUNTRY SEEMS TO BE ABLE TO MEET IN THE FREAKIN' MIDDLE ABOUT ALMOST ANY FREAKN' ISSUE ANYMORE!!!)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1
Second Wind
|
|
Second Wind
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1 |
The problem with politics is, even if your guy has only great intensions, is always right, and would only do what is good for everyone. He will only be in office a limited amount of time, and the powers you grant him will then pass to the next guy, who may be a complete turd.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
|
|
Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
And at the national level, it's really the party more than the individuals involved.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62
Fe Butt
|
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62 |
Ya know Dwight, I never advocated no laws at all. I think a background check is a good idea.I think with a permit to carry you should be able to walk in and buy what you want and leave with it, here in PA you can as long as it isn't full auto.There is still a background check but it is phone to the FBI and done in a few minutes.I think those who can carry legally should be able to do so on their hip not just concealed. I do firmly believe in the right to bear arms though.I carry 2 pre-ban 14 round clips for my carry piece when I carry.14 in the clips and 1 in the chamber of my double action semi-auto so pull and flip the safety squeeze the trigger bang.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,671 Likes: 15
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,671 Likes: 15 |
Chicago...
DC...
NYC...
Could there be a common denominator?
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 885 Likes: 2
3/4 Throttle
|
|
3/4 Throttle
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 885 Likes: 2 |
I know others differ, but I can't imagine one single valid reason why I should or would want to carry a gun, concealed or otherwise. I do however have a 12ga speed pump at home which I purchased for home protection just after Hurricane Andrew. All I have ever used it for was to shoot a bobcat that was eating my chickens.
Cheers,
Brad
To be old and wise, you must first be young and stupid.
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,937
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,937 |
Quote:
...AND a thread which I'll give exactly one more hour from now BEFORE it's locked....WANNA BET???!!!)
Opinions aside, THIS has BEEN PROVEN FALSE! 
And you may see me tonight
With an illegal smile
J. Prine
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,580
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,580 |
Quote:
Chicago...
DC...
NYC...
Could there be a common denominator?
C?
Too old to die young, too ugly to leave a good looking corpse
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,580
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,580 |
Quote:
.AND a thread which I'll give exactly one more hour from now BEFORE it's locked....WANNA BET???!!!)
I'll take that bet, and if I win, Dwight has got to start using more "U"s
OOh, I win
Too old to die young, too ugly to leave a good looking corpse
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,671 Likes: 15
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,671 Likes: 15 |
Quote:
Is my eye sight bad...
Your vision is good enough to see the decedent in a prone position...
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62
Fe Butt
|
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62 |
Quote:
I know others differ, but I can't imagine one single valid reason why I should or would want to carry a gun, concealed or otherwise. I do however have a 12ga speed pump at home which I purchased for home protection just after Hurricane Andrew. All I have ever used it for was to shoot a bobcat that was eating my chickens.
Cheers,
Brad
Drive a tow truck into a bad area at 3AM and then tell me you can't imagine a reason you would want to carry.Or do repo work and tell me, did both for a living.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
|
|
OP
Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Average number of people killed in mass shootings stopped by police is 18.25 average number of people killed in mass shooting stopped by civilians is 2.2 so I say NYC would be an even safer city.
OK, I'm sorry. I have to call bulls$hit on that one. What is the organization that came up with that number? If it's the NRA I'm afraid Big Bird has more respected data.
I find it quite credible, the innocent is more likely to defend themselves rather than talk about it ending it faster, probably one person firing back again less collateral damage. Gun control is controlling your gun, seems the police are unable to do that. How do you miss that badly from 8' away?!
Oh, I don't doubt that the numbers are possible. I'm saying I've published enough research to know bull$hit when I see it. Nobody has run any numbers on this and there is no objective reliable source data. These are just figures somebody pulled out of their a$$ and claimed it to be researched. Unless somebody can produce the math and the source data I say this is BS.
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,580
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,580 |
Quote:
Drive a tow truck into a bad area at 3AM and then tell me you can't imagine a reason you would want to carry.Or do repo work and tell me, did both for a living.
Different scenario, but similar.
I work in maintenance for social housing, have done for over 10 years.
The firm I used to work for got in the habit of sending me (on my own) to do work in properties where the tenant was flagged as being violent and two people where required for protection. I would only find this out afterwards.
The firm I currently work for are quite happy to send me to areas on call out after dark where the old firm would insist on a minimum of 2 people to attend.
I never wish I was carrying, infact, I've never had any bother.
Whether this has to do with the general lack of guns over here, or that the white trash that these particular people are accept me as one of their own, I don't know.
BTW, before I got into social housing, I had lost count of the number of times I'd been at the wrong end of a fully loaded (with live ammo) legal and ready gun.
Another BTW, I tend to read these gun threads on on here, but rarely comment, but tonight I've drunk enough to go all DILLIGAF. (To my friends who were at the Farmyard, don't worry, it's not whiskey this time  )
So no disrespect to anyone who has their own views, just a different perspective.
Too old to die young, too ugly to leave a good looking corpse
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 39
Greenhorn
|
|
Greenhorn
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 39 |
If the people of New York or anywhere else were all armed maybe the nutjobs would think twice before carrying out a mass shooting Knowing everyone may be carrying.if you know there will be no one to stop you whats the deterent.I know the argument they are mentally ill and all. No one really wants to die.
Where the Hell do all these parts go. 04 America,73 Daytona,85 Rebel
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,671 Likes: 15
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,671 Likes: 15 |
There is no evidence the incident was a "mass shooting"; to the contrary, it appears to have been an act of expressive violence committed by the actor directed to a specific individual.
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
|
|
New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
Most shootings aren't mass shootings. Mass shootings are commonly committed by emotionally or mentally ill persons, a lot like serial killers. Statistically, most legitimate civil defense with a firearm never results in even the discharge of the weapon. Concerning DC, NYC and Chi-town, I believe the powers that be might be shocked by the numbers of normally law abiding citizens that own firearms in those cities. No disrespect LEOs, but citizens have no legal or Constitutional right to expect LEOs to provide safety or prevent crime, individuals are responsible for their own safety. Besides, civilians are usually the first responders in most emergencies.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
|
|
Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
So Dwight, thanks for getting me started watching Sunday Morning on CBS, a really good show.  Last Sunday Ben Stein commented on this subject: Ben Stein on Sunday Morning I agree with his assessment of the complexity of the issue.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,671 Likes: 15
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,671 Likes: 15 |
Quote:
...individuals are responsible for their own safety...
Very true, IMO...
|
|
|
Re: Thoughts?
|
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,286 Likes: 65
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,286 Likes: 65 |
I still can't believe that two trained officers who wear bullet proof vests I would assume (they wear them here in Canada as a counter active measure to donut comsumption) could not hit the target first or second shot. As far as the average Joe ripping off a few shots to take down a bad guy thanks but no thanks enough of that goes on in the movies we don't need it on the streets.
|
|
|
|
|
