 ABS brakes
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,236 Likes: 56
Loquacious
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OP
Loquacious
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,236 Likes: 56 |
Wish I had them a couple days ago when a Chrysler mini van tailgating another car all of a sudden slammed on its brakes avoiding a rear ender. When I saw the ar$e end of the van going up almost exposing it's personals I grabbed a little too much front brake. Those duels on a Speedie have some good stopping power when pushed and I got a little chirp from the front tire when it stopped rotating momentarily. I did a bit of a wobble and headed for the apron for some clearence ahead of me. The truck behide backed way off as he probably witnessed the whole thing.
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Re: ABS brakes
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964
Stickman Yogi
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Stickman Yogi
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964 |
And so, Paul... are you okay? I locked up the front a couple o' years ago while avoiding a deer. Scary stuff, as you know! ABS or not, it takes a whole lot to sort out a positive outcome. Note to all, don't let technology alone save your arse... hyper awareness goes a long way too!
Live to love, love to live.
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Re: ABS brakes
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,236 Likes: 56
Loquacious
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OP
Loquacious
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,236 Likes: 56 |
Thanks yes I'm fine but at the time quite startled the differenc between hard brake and stopping rotation was so subtle. In Ft Lb per sq in it is probably dramatic but not so obvious at the lever at 80 kph. ABS are coming on all new road bikes in a few years according to a RAT member who is in a position to know. Anyone tried them?
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Re: ABS brakes
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,457
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,457 |
My tiger has ABS. Takes a lot of the thinking out of hard or panic stopping. Videoedit- didn't realize it was 5 month old thread...
Last edited by Lonzo; 01/21/2013 8:26 PM.
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Re: ABS brakes
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,685 Likes: 20
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,685 Likes: 20 |
There are those that will resist them. I think the jury is in on ABS. They save lives.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: ABS brakes
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,284
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,284 |
My 2010 Street Glide has them. They are fantastic! 
Strangler
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Re: ABS brakes
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,186 Likes: 55
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,186 Likes: 55 |
Quote:
There are those that will resist them. I think the jury is in on ABS. They save lives.
Unless they malfunction like I have had happen on a few cars where the pump activates preventing you from braking properly. In some case applied more pressure to stop then the pump stopped causing me to lock the brake briefly. This is not an uncommon malfunction. To me on a bike that is not an acceptable risk. If they could make them flawlessly, I agree, a great idea
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: ABS brakes
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,685 Likes: 20
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,685 Likes: 20 |
That video is exactly what happens. I watched a real enactment of it while following my son on the 4 lane at 60MPH. It was as if he was on ice. There was noting to do but watch it wash out from under him. (He is ok now 4 months later.) Brain function is back in the 90% area and 8 broken bones healed or healing.
It's amazing the actions taken by those bikes in the video are exactly the same actions taken by my son. Its like watching the accident all over again.
I am an ABS believer. I will not buy another motorcycle that does not have ABS. To me, its not worth the risk when you have a choice. Yes I still ride my non-ABS bikes, just won't invest again without that technology. We have it and it should be on all cruisers. IMHO
Friar was a very good rider, I suspect he may have washed his bike out too. We will never know about that one. That is the problem with one bike accidents. Can you prove it would not have happened with ABS.
I think some things we just have to be able to intellectualize.
Dog, how many failures of ABS cause accidents? You live and tow in snowy PA. You know ABS works.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: ABS brakes
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Ian, I could be wrong here, but from how you described your braking practice with an ABS system, it sounds to be as if you're committing the cardinal sin in the operation of these systems by attempting to override their function with a "pumping action". Yep, The first thing the "experts" will tell you is to NEVER pump the brakes and to allow those systems to function as they were designed to do. AND, they're designed to stop a car involved in a skid in a much shorter and controlable distance than almost ANY driver has the ability to do by pumping the brakes on a non-ABS equipped automobile, and on motorcycles they're designed to keep the bike upright and not allow the front wheel to "wash-out" and/or the rear wheel to not come around on ya..as Ron here just explained about his son's mishap. (...aaah, but then again and if I'm correct here, I suppose I'm not surprised that a guy who longs for the return of breaker-point ignitions and kick-starters on motorcycles would attempt to override ANYTHING on a vehicle that's MODERN!!!!!)  
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: ABS brakes
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,186 Likes: 55
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,186 Likes: 55 |
No Dwight, I am talking about an ABS malfunction that is very common. The pump tries to stop a locking situation where none exists and prevents the driver from normal braking. In a 4 wheeled vehicle you can usually apply extra pressure to apply the brakes but when the pump corrects you end up over applying the brake causing the locking situation. I would never purchase a bike with ABS until this can be eliminated as a fault in the system.
Ron, the thought of Friar washing out due to braking had crossed my mind but I didn't want to bring it up. I do think it may be a good thing in the future but not reliable enough for bike yet IMO.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: ABS brakes
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Yeah, I guess I know what ya mean. In fact, I've been puttin' off gettin' me one o' them there newfangled cellphones 'cause I sure ain't gettin' one 'til they figure out a way to keep it from givin' me brain cancer, which SOME folks tell me those things WILL!!!   (...bottom line my friend, ABS on motorcycles WORKS, and there's been many many MANY field tests over the years since it's been introduced on these suckers that have SHOWN that it works...but I know I'll never convince YOU o' that here, huh!)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: ABS brakes
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,685 Likes: 20
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,685 Likes: 20 |
I think ABS is easily disabled putting it back to standard disc. Unlike racing, the reason they would not be on the go fast sport bikes. Street cruisers in the very near future will all have them. HD, BMW, Honda, Victory, Triumph are starting to get the picture. I think over a dozen HD cruisers come standard with ABS now. I always thought this was the company that never cared about technology! Well, even they get it. I don't see a thing wrong with a bike that will keep you upright in a wet road skid or a panic stop. 
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: ABS brakes
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,186 Likes: 55
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,186 Likes: 55 |
I like the idea when they work but when they don't they cause the very problem they are intended to prevent. I have to have my Blazer looked at now for the very problem I am describing. The pump activates without my applying any brake at all, I can hear it run. Then if I apply the brake it prevents me from applying any brake to the wheel at all so I force the pedal down hard and I get some brake then the pump stops and the wheels lock. I had a Silverado that did the same thing and my friend has an F150 that is doing it too. Once I never hear of that problem again I'll go for it on a bike but as of now I wouldn't buy a bike with ABS unless I disable it. I have bypassed it on other vehicles, so many I have lost count for the same problem, the cheapest fix is a bypass. Not to mention I have purposely locked my rear brake to power slide in an emergency situation to avoid an object. If I was not able to slide the back end I would have hit them. A car once and a large bird another time, those 2 pop right to mind. ABS, no thanks.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: ABS brakes
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,931 Likes: 1
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,931 Likes: 1 |
I had a S10 years ago that did that. but it was recalled & fixed
we should do this every weekend!
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Re: ABS brakes
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,937
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,937 |
I KNOW where your comin' from Ian. And I agree with what your sayin'. I've had more than enough personal experience with situations in a cage where I'd have preferred for them NOT to have "anti-locked"! Sometimes, you may WANT to slide sideways, let off the brake, and go 90 degrees in another direction. I have. Sometimes, you MAY want others to hear your tire(s) screeching. I have. (never have had time to hit that damn horn in a true "panic" situation  ) When I see them used in competition, and the "malfunction" horror stories go away, I'll reconsider. (maybe) In the mean time, you won't see me adding better calipers, pads, etc. to make my front brake stronger either, as it WILL lock the wheel already, as is, and I don't ride it hard enough for brake fade to kick in. In a panic situation, I don't use the front brake. I can't manage it during a panic situation (hence the term "panic", MUCH different then "aggressive") I use the rear only (YEP, ain't gonna stop near as soon, I KNOW). SURE, I'd rather hit BOTH hard, not go down, AND stop in time! (let me know how THAT works for ya), BUT, I'd rather have the rear come around on me, and let it "slide-out" from under me, then have the front "wash-out" from under me. EITHER WAY, YOUR GOING DOWN! one way is just a little harder on ya then the other. Against conventional wisdom? I guess.  But it stems from my off-road days, and it hasn't done me wrong yet. It's BETTER to just ride conservatively.  Yeah, I know. I've READ ya'lls "gone down" stories. Notice ya'll ain't read mine!?? (Knock on wood) Yeah, remember that little "off the shoulder ride" in a tight curve during the last Georgia Rally? Can you picture the outcome if I'd used the front brake?  You and I are just gonna have to tolerate their criticism for the rest of this thread (MOST of them are SOOO... much more experienced), and beyond. Oh well. But I'm with ya brother. Happy motorin' p.s. How in the he11 are ya gonna do "stoppies" with anti-locks!??
And you may see me tonight
With an illegal smile
J. Prine
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Re: ABS brakes
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,186 Likes: 55
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,186 Likes: 55 |
No mechanical substitute for experience and I am a firm believer that those who rode in the dirt when young are much better equipped on the road in an emergency situation.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: ABS brakes
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,268 Likes: 15
Saddle Sore
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Saddle Sore
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,268 Likes: 15 |
After watching the vid I have two questions. Did it seem that the rider shifted his weight on the non abs machine a bit contributing to the wash out? Slow it down and watch it closely several times. Second who the neck is locking down the front brake in those very wet conditions? I'm a 80% front brake 20% rear brake rider. In other words I rarely use the rear brake. However a man's gotta know his limitations and when conditions warrent more of one vs less on the other. I've had conversations with riders who stated . "Man I never use the front brake" mostly cruisers. ABS? I'm still on the fence, it's a great concept but I like to be in control. It's fairly new technology for bikes and will one day be the norm and I will most likely come around to the Idea just like fuel injection. Heck I might even get one of those fancy electronic tablets. Oh that's right I've got the Kindle Fire I'm composing this post on. 
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Re: ABS brakes
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,931 Likes: 1
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,931 Likes: 1 |
fire? you sending smoke signals
we should do this every weekend!
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Re: ABS brakes
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,685 Likes: 20
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,685 Likes: 20 |
Quote:
ABS? I'm still on the fence, it's a great concept but I like to be in control. It's fairly new technology for bikes and will one day be the norm and I will most likely come around to the Idea just like fuel injection. Heck I might even get one of those fancy electronic tablets. Oh that's right I've got the Kindle Fire I'm composing this post on.
ABS has been on bikes and growing in popularity. The motorcycle ABS technology is 25 years old.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: ABS brakes
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,268 Likes: 15
Saddle Sore
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Saddle Sore
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,268 Likes: 15 |
Quote:
Quote:
ABS? I'm still on the fence, it's a great concept but I like to be in control. It's fairly new technology for bikes and will one day be the norm and I will most likely come around to the Idea just like fuel injection. Heck I might even get one of those fancy electronic tablets. Oh that's right I've got the Kindle Fire I'm composing this post on.
ABS has been on bikes and growing in popularity. The motorcycle ABS technology is 25 years old.
The seat belts for autos were first patented in 1885, just sayin
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Re: ABS brakes
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,685 Likes: 20
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,685 Likes: 20 |
Actually seat belts were standard in cars in 1960. People still argue that they are worthless in saving lives or preventing injury. I have never met an engineer or anyone else that understands momentum, braking, and gyroscopic principles that is against ABS or seat belts for that matter. For those that think ABS is a hazard you don't need to buy at this point. Wouldn't want you to get hurt because you had ABS.  The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety released a study in 2010 that found motorcycles with ABS 37% less likely to be involved in a fatal crash than models without ABS.[20]
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: ABS brakes
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,268 Likes: 15
Saddle Sore
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Saddle Sore
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,268 Likes: 15 |
Quote:
Actually seat belts were standard in cars in 1960. People still argue that they are worthless in saving lives or preventing injury.
I have never met an engineer or anyone else that understands momentum, braking, and gyroscopic principles that is against ABS or seat belts for that matter.
For those that think ABS is a hazard you don't need to buy at this point. Wouldn't want you to get hurt because you had ABS.
Lighten up brother, I never said I was against anything just not ready to conform. Guess it’s just the Rebel in me.
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Re: ABS brakes
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,685 Likes: 20
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,685 Likes: 20 |
You are not stressing me in the least. I added a statistic to my post.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: ABS brakes
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,715 Likes: 4
Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,715 Likes: 4 |
I didn't think seatbelts were standard until '67 or '68
Always remember to be yourself. Unless you suck. Then pretend to be someone else.
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Re: ABS brakes
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,685 Likes: 20
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,685 Likes: 20 |
Required you may be right. Rambler, Ford, Volvo, Saab were either standard or commonplace. I think the first requirement was in the 60s for front seat only then all seats by 1970. I don't remember the years. I know my 66 GTO had them and my 65 Catalina. I don't remember if they were just dealer installed or factory.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: ABS brakes
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,937
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,937 |
Quote:
After watching the vid I have two questions. Did it seem that the rider shifted his weight on the non abs machine a bit contributing to the wash out? Slow it down and watch it closely several times.
---Sure looks "triggered", didn't it.
(did you notice the fork modulation/pulsation with the ABS? Kinda resembles hitting the brakes five times.)
Second who the neck is locking down the front brake in those very wet conditions?
---Panicked greenhorns.
I'm a 80% front brake 20% rear brake rider. In other words I rarely use the rear brake.
---Me too, except in sharp corners and on wet pavement, and in a panic stop.
However a man's gotta know his limitations and when conditions warrent more of one vs less on the other.
---
ABS? I'm still on the fence, it's a great concept but I like to be in control. It's fairly new technology for bikes and will one day be the norm and I will most likely come around to the Idea just like fuel injection.
----Yep, F.I. has been around since the 1800's, but hasn't been a great success in production vehicles until what, 1980's?
Heck I might even get one of those fancy electronic tablets.
---Nope! 
And you may see me tonight
With an illegal smile
J. Prine
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Re: ABS brakes
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,060 Likes: 6
Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,060 Likes: 6 |
Quote:
Actually seat belts were standard in cars in 1960.
Don't think so. Maybe optional. Had a lot of 1960s cars and none of them had belts. Maybe my 69 ElCamino. Funny thing is, I was always in favor of belts. I even installed a set in my 64 Chevelles and used them. Seemed like a non-intrusive good idea. Though I was never for making it the law to wear them. Now it's really gotten out of hand. Don't have any kids around, but I understand that there are all kinds of requirements for kids to wear, even in the back seat. My 11 year old niece has to sit in some kind of contraption in the back seat. She seems to be of normal height to me. Seems over the top to me.
Fidelis et Fortis
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Re: ABS brakes
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,715 Likes: 4
Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,715 Likes: 4 |
Quote:
Quote:
After watching the vid I have two questions. Did it seem that the rider shifted his weight on the non abs machine a bit contributing to the wash out? Slow it down and watch it closely several times.
---Sure looks "triggered", didn't it.
(did you notice the fork modulation/pulsation with the ABS? Kinda resembles hitting the brakes five times.)
Second who the neck is locking down the front brake in those very wet conditions?
---Panicked greenhorns.
I'm a 80% front brake 20% rear brake rider. In other words I rarely use the rear brake.
---Me too, except in sharp corners and on wet pavement, and in a panic stop.
However a man's gotta know his limitations and when conditions warrent more of one vs less on the other.
---
ABS? I'm still on the fence, it's a great concept but I like to be in control. It's fairly new technology for bikes and will one day be the norm and I will most likely come around to the Idea just like fuel injection.
----Yep, F.I. has been around since the 1800's, but hasn't been a great success in production vehicles until what, 1980's?
Heck I might even get one of those fancy electronic tablets.
---Nope!
dafuq?
Always remember to be yourself. Unless you suck. Then pretend to be someone else.
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Re: ABS brakes
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,685 Likes: 20
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,685 Likes: 20 |
Quote:
Quote:
Actually seat belts were standard in cars in 1960.
Don't think so. Maybe optional. Had a lot of 1960s cars and none of them had belts. Maybe my 69 ElCamino. Funny thing is, I was always in favor of belts. I even installed a set in my 64 Chevelles and used them. Seemed like a non-intrusive good idea. Though I was never for making it the law to wear them. Now it's really gotten out of hand. Don't have any kids around, but I understand that there are all kinds of requirements for kids to wear, even in the back seat. My 11 year old niece has to sit in some kind of contraption in the back seat. She seems to be of normal height to me. Seems over the top to me.
I know my 65 and 66 Pontiacs had them in the front. I found this from T Barriers. It appears Nash, Volvo, and Saab had belts from the late 50s. They were optional with Ford from 1955.
There are still those that won't wear belts stating the few real and other mythical cases of those that die from fire because they couldn't get out and those that could have jumped before the car went over the cliff etc.
I didn't wear my belt until 10 years ago because I was too lazy to do it. People tend to resist change whether it is for the good or not. I think that is part of resistance to ABS. I have been searching my hardest to find cases on ABS malfunctions that caused deaths. I know in the Northest every first snow storm it became a game of bumper cars. You just sit and watch the cars skidding into one another. All the drivers paralyzed with their foot on that brake pedal, unable to let off of it. That is what your brain does in a panic.
++++++++++++++
Developments in the 1960s
In 1962, U.S. carmakers required seat belt anchors to be standard in the front seat. Also in this year, the British magazine Which? reported that seat belts reduced the risk of death or serious injury during an auto accident by 60 percent. In 1963, Volvo expanded its three-point safety belt as a standard on cars sold in the United States as well. By the following year, most U.S. manufacturers provided lap belts in the front seat. European carmakers required safety belts in the front seat in 1965, and in 1967, seat belts become standard for all cars built in the United Kingdom (British cars were required to feature the three-point system).
Read more: The History of Seat Belts | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_5110697_history-seat-belts.html#ixzz2KDRP1epn
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: ABS brakes
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,186 Likes: 55
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,186 Likes: 55 |
The biggest problem with people sliding is clowns that don't know how to drive in the snow. Sudden turns,hard braking, driving too fast, panic braking rather than pointing the front wheels where you want to go in a slide. I have no data on ABS crashes but I have abundant personal experiences with the malfunction I described. This malfunction would most likely not cause a crash on 4 wheels but would very likely do so on 2 wheels.
Seatbelts can be good when worn properly but when worn improperly can cause serious or fatal injury. When worn properly they can save lives but can also kill, very much depends on the accident details. My friend was almost killed by his, he rolled over into a creek and the belt wouldn't release, he almost drowned. Now that being said would he have been ejected and killed were he not wearing one, possibly. I know our 69 and 71 Buick Electras had belts as did our 69 Old Vista Cruiser and those had front and back belts, my 71 LeMans did too. I can't remember if my 66 Impala SS did or not but my 63 VW Bug did not. My 55 Studebaker also does not and neither did my 51 Chevy. Can't remember if the AMX did or not same with the Challenger.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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