 Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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I think the only fair test would be a 10K bike against a 10K bike. 
Power to dollar ratio!!! 
Well I'd love to compare a $10k 1200cc Triumph Bonneville America against the Harley Sportster 1200...if Triumph would just build that bike!
I doubt they ever will. I'm sure it has been discussed at Triumph but they might figure a 1200cc America with it's weight, price and performance advantage and comparable overall size and riding position would damage Thunderbird sales.
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Well heck Ian, I'm surprised he didn't ALSO give that often heard excuse that THAT just gives his Harley "character"!!!  
Each bike does have it's own "character" even from the same manufacturer. A 1200 Sportster is different from an Ultra Classic, A V-Rod or a balance shaft Softail. Same as the "character" of a Bonneville vs a Speed Triple or a Rocket.
Well, yes and no, OB. The only difference is that all of your aforementioned Triumph models' engines don't shake in their frames at idling speed and are sooooooo freakin' smoooooooooth throughout their rev-range.
Hence, once again, my often stated point in this thread about "H-D should have placed a balance shaft inside those beautiful Sportster motors by this time", and especially since they WERE takin' in money hand-over-fist from about the mid-80s until very recently and just before the economy soured.
(...but don't get me wrong here, OB...if some kind person wanted to give me an XR1200, I would GLADLY accept that baby...and I wouldn't care one bit if it shook at idle or NOT!)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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A V-Rod is more Porsche than Harley, Porsche designed it.
Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and will never be.----Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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A V-Rod is more Porsche than Harley, Porsche designed it.
The V-rod was designed jointly with Porsche not by Porsche alone. All V-Rods are built at the same plant as our Sportster and Dyna models in Kansas City, Missouri, USA.
By your logic the Triumph America is not British since they are built entirely in Thailand.
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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A V-Rod is more Porsche than Harley, Porsche designed it.
The V-rod was designed jointly with Porsche not by Porsche alone. All V-Rods are built at the same plant as our Sportster and Dyna models in Kansas City, Missouri, USA.
By your logic the Triumph America is not British since they are built entirely in Thailand.
Not true, they are only assembled there. Mine was made entirely in England. If they had moved to that Thailand assembly plant before I bought mine I wouldn't have bought it. HD imports a lot of the parts to assemble their bikes too these days.As I am sure Triumph did when my bike was made, such as the carbs.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Sooooo, let me see if I've got this straight here then, Ian... It wouldn't have mattered one bit that these newers Triumphs look fantastic, run smooth as silk, AND handle better than any cruiser-style bike has a right to...you wouldn't have purchased the two you have IF they were built in Thailand, right?! (...well, I suppose we all have our different priorities in life, huh!)  
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Btw guys, from what I've read in the past about the V-Rod, OB is somewhat correct about the V-Rod. The V-Rod's basic engine design was orginially designed in-house by H-D to power their VR1000 race bike in the mid-90s, and was a testbed for the eventual V-Rod engine. However, because H-D soon discovered the VR1000 wasn't producing as much power as originally hoped, and was also found not to be as competitive in the AMA Superbike series as H-D had at first hoped it would be, they soon turned to Porsche in hopes that that German firm could help wring out more performance from it, but to little avail.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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I have a Speedmaster, it was Made In England.
Aren't all the bikes from the KC plant assembled there(not made), as most all the parts come from Indonesia, Thailand, and China(since they just closed a Australian plant to move that to China).
Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and will never be.----Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Quote:
Sooooo, let me see if I've got this straight here then, Ian...
It wouldn't have mattered one bit that these newers Triumphs look fantastic, run smooth as silk, AND handle better than any cruiser-style bike has a right to...you wouldn't have purchased the two you have IF they were built in Thailand, right?!
(...well, I suppose we all have our different priorities in life, huh!)
If they were built there(Thailand) I would have just rebuilt my chopper from the ground up again.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Sooooo, let me see if I've got this straight here then, Ian...
It wouldn't have mattered one bit that these newers Triumphs look fantastic, run smooth as silk, AND handle better than any cruiser-style bike has a right to...you wouldn't have purchased the two you have IF they were built in Thailand, right?!
(...well, I suppose we all have our different priorities in life, huh!)
If they were built there(Thailand) I would have just rebuilt my chopper from the ground up again.
Okay, I suppose that that would've covered ONE out o' those THREE things I mentioned these modern Triumphs have in abundance then.
(...in case you're wonderin' that "one thing" would've been in the looks department, 'cause that old rebuilt Triumph Chopper of yours suuuuure as heck wouldn't be quite as smooth runnin' OR handle as nearly as well as these newer Triumphs do, ya know...of course then again, I suppose anyone who'd extend out the front of an old Triumph doesn't really care all that much about that there "handling" thing anyway, huh!)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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I used to throw that bike around better than you might think. I had many a traditional bike trying to keep up here in the mountains not able to. Have to remember I rode that bike everywhere for more than 20 years and wore that engine out 4 times. That is complete rebuild 4 times not just a top end.Not trying to say it handles as well as my SM just saying I was at one with it and could ride it way faster than I needed to to get in trouble. Use to piss my buddy with his shovel off that he couldn't out run me.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Yeah, actually I know what ya mean here. Ride enough miles on just about any motorcycle, and eventually it seems to "become one with you". I guess that that might be because you eventually get to know all the bike's limitations, and those limitations become a sort of "sixth sense". (...and I don't mean that that means you can "see dead people" along the road, of course!)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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I have a Speedmaster, it was Made In England.
Aren't all the bikes from the KC plant assembled there(not made), as most all the parts come from Indonesia, Thailand, and China(since they just closed a Australian plant to move that to China).
Then you have an older Speedmaster, most EFI era Triumph Bonneville, Speedmaster and America motorcycles are Built in Thailand. That includes frame and body build, paint and most part production. Triumph has 3 plants in Thailand and only 2 in England. If your VIN's 11th digit is a (T) it was Thai built if it's a (J) it was built in England.
Harley-Davidson's Kansas City plant builds the V-Rod, Dyna and Sportster models. Including engine production, frame build, paint etc. The plant is open for tours. Here are a few pictures.
 
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Quote:
Sooooo, let me see if I've got this straight here then, Ian...
It wouldn't have mattered one bit that these newers Triumphs look fantastic, run smooth as silk, AND handle better than any cruiser-style bike has a right to...you wouldn't have purchased the two you have IF they were built in Thailand, right?!
(...well, I suppose we all have our different priorities in life, huh!)
I have to agree with him on this to a point, I bought my America because of those qualities and as I understand it engine production is still done in England. could be wrong about that. I certainly dont like the fact Triumph outsources Bonneville/America production to Thailand for cheap labor. And let's not lie to ourselves that is the only reason Triumph and other companies do it. It is short sighted and damaging to the economies of their primary markets. Why didnt Triumph set up some production here in the US or keep all production in the UK? Cheap Thai labor...and to get around strict domestic enviromental and safety regulations. I understand motorcycle manufacturers purcase some components like shocks, brakes, electrical, tires etc from suppliers around the world, Im talking about the labor intense ops like engine, transmission, frame build, body/paint and final assembly. I bought my America in spite of it being built in Thailand and certainly would have prefered it to be British built.
The least expensive Triumph is a base Bonneville for $7,699 built in Thailand.
The least expensive Harley is an 883 Sportster for $7,999 built in the USA.
Last edited by outerbanks; 05/20/2012 11:01 AM.
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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I understand the concerns about the whole outsourcing issue here, OB. However in my case, IF that factor ALONE would have overridden all of my other concerns, wants and needs in a vehicle I had before I've plunked down my money on the vehicles I currently own, then I suppose there's the possibility I wouldn't own my Canadian-built Chevy Silverado and my wife's Japanese-designed but Indiana-built Subaru Outback....and both of which have turned out to be exceptionally good vehicles.
(...in other words, welcome to the Global Marketplace, dude!)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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HD uses more imported parts than you stated and maybe more than you are aware of.HD won't tell you what they are or what percentage of parts because it would kill the made in USA image they want. Just like they won't give any info on their oil, or at least they didn't used to.I haven't checked in a while.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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HD uses more imported parts than you stated and maybe more than you are aware of.HD won't tell you what they are or what percentage of parts because it would kill the made in USA image they want. Just like they won't give any info on their oil, or at least they didn't used to.I haven't checked in a while.
The difference is the most labor intense operations final assembly, engine production, paint etc are all handled in the US. Wish Triumph could say the same about UK production.
Triumph is just as concerned about their image. Their site has many photos, videos and information inside their UK plants...just try to find any of that on their plants in Thailand.
Harley oil is made to Harley spec by Sunoco IIRC. All Harley cares about is that Harley owners buy it and use it in their bikes. It is what H-D recommends so why bother paying to have it certified for use in other applications. If Mobil or Valvoline want you to use their products in whatever bike you ride then they have to pay for certifications proving it meets your manufacturers requirements.
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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What I meant about their oil is they won't tell you what the specs are so you can use a suitable substitute.
I wish Triumph was still made in UK like it was and I agree with you there. I already stated I wouldn't buy a new one because of it.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Well I own a 2003 speedmaster and a 2001 sportster 1200 S. My speedmaster Dyno'd at 62 rear wheel hp, I forgot the torque. That was with air box removed and carb adjustments and pipes. My harley specs were 61 hp and 65 torque with only pipes and rejetting. This the S model with 4 spark plugs, 2 per head. They are a pretty close match. I enjoy both bikes for different reasons.
Outer banks your wifes bike is a beauty and im sure she'll enjoy it.
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Joined: Jan 2012
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Complete Newb
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Complete Newb
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mate you will have to take it for a spin, but make sure the girl is at work, got pressure from my son who rides a 'harley softtail' which is bvery mice. My wife says no, guess I dont get one
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Yea, I don't care too much WHERE it's built, as long as it's built to good standards.  If the outsourcing for cheaper labor let's ME buy it for less, then my left over money goes to more/other goods. (from America or where ever) When manufacturers make more profit, they pay more taxes. IF other countries do better, then MAYBE my government can keep more of our "support funds" here in America. IF other countries people earn a little bit more, and live just a little bit better, humanity wins. When any countries people make more money, they buy more. (SOME possibly even imported from America)  One thing IS for sure, even if some sacrifices must be made, WE ARE GLOBAL!  What goes around, comes around!  Time the world starts thinking as Earthlings, and not by ethnic groups.  Idealist! What you talkin' 'bout Willis!?  Peace!
And you may see me tonight
With an illegal smile
J. Prine
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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And you may see me tonight
With an illegal smile
J. Prine
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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You cant be serious.
I gave you an example of an outsource built bike vs an American built bike of equal displacement. $300 cheaper to the buyer. Big deal, you spend more on transport and setup.
Quick lesson in economics for you: The market sets the price, outsourcing is simply a cheat to increase profit margin for corporate executives.
You really need to do some research into the reality of the situation. In recient years look at how corporate executive pay has become obscene at the same rate of domestic job elimination. Personally I would prefer for my purchase to benifit thousands of working class Americans (or British) vs stuffing the pockets of a handfull of executives that outsource production to "emerging countries" for cheap labor and to get around enviromental and safety regulations.
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster *DELETED*
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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And you may see me tonight
With an illegal smile
J. Prine
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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Personally I would prefer for my purchase to benifit thousands of working class Americans (or British) vs stuffing the pockets of a handfull of executives that outsource production to "emerging countries" for cheap labor and to get around enviromental and safety regulations.
Well said. It seems to be inevitable that third world countries are going to be bigger players and make more money. But here's the thing. I am for raising the standard of living for third world contries. But does that mean that OUR standard of living has to degenerate to make that happen? If Triumph could make the bikes in England, and turn a good profit, that's what they should have stayed with. Companies are no longer satisfied with making a handsome profit. They have to make a KILLING, or they take their business elsewhere. I'm glad my 02 America is made (for the most part) with British hands. And if Harley can keep MAJOR production in the U.S., my hat's off to them.
Fidelis et Fortis
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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I just realized something. If you guys get to fighting and get out of control who breaks it up? No more chill out warnings  I won't buy a Thailand bike either. I just think of the British worker that isn't because there is no need for them.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Your right.
I took the low road, time to turn around and take the high road. I beleive in what I said, as ya'll beleive in what ya'll do, but now ain't the time to start sh1t.
Peace.
And you may see me tonight
With an illegal smile
J. Prine
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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Quote:
Your right.
I took the low road, time to turn around and take the high road. I beleive in what I said, as ya'll beleive in what ya'll do, but now ain't the time to start sh1t.
Peace.
We're cool. Just exchanging points of view. And I figure John is still looking over my shoulder. And chuckling. He'll be doing that for as long as we exist on here.
Fidelis et Fortis
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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I just realized something. If you guys get to fighting and get out of control who breaks it up?
No more chill out warnings
Don't worry too much about this, Ron. Ya see, in more than a few PM's to me over the years, Friar John would thank me for bein', as he would say, "his Rodeo Clown". By that he meant that I'd see where a discussion might be gettin' a bit heated, often topics which someone would start out by just BARELY being this side of the A.U.P.s around here, and so I'd take it upon myself to kinda side-track the sucker a little usin' my brand of humor(WITH or WITHOUT that superfluous letter "U" in that word) and attempt to lower the tenor of the discussion to a more rational level, SO THAT John wouldn't have to lock the thing up, which he always HATED to do to threads.
And soooooo, as I was sayin' here Ron ol' buddy, you won't have to worry too much about this 'cause EVEN THOUGH John has now gone on to his reward, I'LL STILL be doin' my freakin' "Rodeo Clown" act for HIM even though moe, chy and Wojo are NOW in charge!
(...and THEY better freakin' appreciate my "Rodeo Clown" act TOO from here on out, or THEY can just SHOVE IT!!!!!) 
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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Just keep in mind Dwight that the Rodeo Clown has little to do unless there is an out of control bull involved. Lots of bull here so you'll be busy :-)
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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No, I believe everyone would be cool with it, it was just my opinion. I deleted it so as NOT to piss off Outerbanks. NOW, I wish I never deleted it, as there was NOTHING bad about it, and now he may think there was. (kinda unfair that he DIDN'T get to read it, as I'm sure he wouldn't get "MAD", and now he's gonna wonder what was said. He ALSO SHOULD have had the chance to read it and rebuttal. Outerbanks, No disrespect intended, just a little childish on my part with the comment about "getting your goat", and the little e-con. HOPEFULLY, one of the Mod's, or ANY Tech-God, can repost it with my permission, so things can be out in the open. IF POSSIBLE, PLEASE DO! As always, PEACE! Erle.
And you may see me tonight
With an illegal smile
J. Prine
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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"getting your goat", and the little e-con.
I thought that little part was kinda funny. Ya gotta have a sense of humor around here and friendly banter and teasing should be accepted as such. Lord knows, I dish out plenty of it. But I never intend to hurt. Ya gotta look at the big picture of life with human beings and realize how rediculous we are!
Fidelis et Fortis
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