 Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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...though I've ALSO thought that by this time H-D should have re-engineered the XL-series by placing a balance-shaft somewhere inside that beautiful motor. I mean it's not as if they haven't had the money to do this for a long long time, eh?!
Harley is a little hard headed about some things, they went to the trouble to isolate the Sportster engines with rubber mounts starting in 2004. Apparently they believe the low frequency Harley v-twin vibration is part of the bike's character and they work to control but not eliminate it. The only air cooled Harleys that come with balance shafts are the Softail series, possibly because of their unique frames.
I dont mind the rubber mounted engine but I think every air-cooled motorcycle should come from the factory with an oil cooler like Triumph. But it is standard only on the Sportster XR1200X, and a dealer installed accessory on the rest of the line.
The real question here is how popular and profitable would a Triumph America/Speedmaster be with a factory option 1200cc engine? Would you pay $2000 more for an America that made say 85-hp and 75-lbft of torque? I would have. Such an engine could also be standard in the Thruxton.
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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I would have paid extra for a 1200 version of my bike.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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OOOOOH yeah, OB!
Considering that you're relatively new around here is probably the reason you haven't seen all the times in the past where I have "waxed poetic" at this website about this very subject of why Mr. Bloor never offered up a more high performance version of these air-cooled vertical twins directly from the FACTORY and available for purchase at your friendly neighborhood Triumph Motorcycle dealership.
Uh huh! And if you'd give me about half an hour, I'm sure I could find and link to you at least half a dozen threads where in the past I've said and asked the very same question you've just asked. And even MORE coincidentally, have suggested that very same $2,000 figure as probably what the increased cost would be too.
(...and as you probably have guessed by now, MY answer is a definite: "HELL YES, I would have!", as I've always believed that ALL the Bonneville lineup needs to have 'em near "perfect" is about 20 more HP, which would've been the result of about a 200cc or so increase in displacement...yep, I'm RIGHT with ya here, my friend!)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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i work at a motorcycle shop and we work on all kinds of bikes, i've rode many different bikes in my life, including many sportster 883, 1200 and vtx 1300, 1800. I know that you harley guys get a kick out of the stage 1, 2, 3 upgrades, but i don't care what stage you use. Stage 1...2...3...50 (sarcasm). A 1200 sportster will get outrun by a 1300 vtx, with just minor modifications to exhaust and fuel system.
I know some people will disagree, (because they have a sportster and think they are the baddest bike built) but from my personal experience the sportster isn't as powerful as the vtx 1300 in a side by side comparison.
i'll be honest, i wish harley produced a better machine because i am an American but i just don't think they are on par with the european and jap bikes.
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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i work at a motorcycle shop and we work on all kinds of bikes, i've rode many different bikes in my life, including many sportster 883, 1200 and vtx 1300, 1800. I know that you harley guys get a kick out of the stage 1, 2, 3 upgrades, but i don't care what stage you use. Stage 1...2...3...50 (sarcasm). A 1200 sportster will get outrun by a 1300 vtx, with just minor modifications to exhaust and fuel system.
I know some people will disagree, (because they have a sportster and think they are the baddest bike built) but from my personal experience the sportster isn't as powerful as the vtx 1300 in a side by side comparison.
i'll be honest, i wish harley produced a better machine because i am an American but i just don't think they are on par with the european and jap bikes.
I rode both bikes as well and you are ...wrong.
A 1200 Sportster is a solid 1/2 second faster through the quarter mile without even trying hard. You see that's because the fact (not opinion) is the 1200 Sportster makes more torque, more horsepower and weighs well over 100 pounds less than the Honda VTX 1300. No modification at all just stock vs stock.
Why dont you post a link to an recognized source proving your point? I can.
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Loquacious
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...i just don't think they are on par with the...jap bikes.
Nope!!! NOTHING is, when EVERYTHING is taken into cosideration! 
And you may see me tonight
With an illegal smile
J. Prine
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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...No modification at all just stock vs stock.
Why dont you post a link to an recognized source proving your point? I can.
Well, let's lead by example!
I'm interested. 
And you may see me tonight
With an illegal smile
J. Prine
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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Quote:
Quote:
...No modification at all just stock vs stock.
Why dont you post a link to an recognized source proving your point? I can.
Well, let's lead by example!
I'm interested.
I agree. Demanding someone prove their point by claiming they have their own proof but not showing it is irrelevant. Everyone who has facts post them up. Butt dynos don't count. And actually, factory specs don't count. I think we all know they're often manipulated. Head-to-head results, with a valid measurement baseline and specifications spelled out, please.
I mean, really, let's take this pissing match to the next level and inject some science! 
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Learned Hand
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what is that HD power at, 65hp and 85 torque? Wait, thats about it for the bigger bikes, like the Street Glide. The 1690 cc Fat Bob produces 70.1 hp and 90.1 torque according to June 2012 Rider. That littler 1200 shouldn't be close to that?
And to think, the 1700 T-Bird Storm rates at 97 hp and 115 torque, a nice bump vs the 1600 T-Bird's 85 hp and 108 torque.
Last edited by HeneryHawk; 05/01/2012 10:36 PM.
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Learned Hand
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If I remember reading correctly, a 883 is around 45 hp and 45 torque. Here is a bunch of stats of interest.. http://www.mcnews.com/mcn/technical/200801perfindex.pdf
Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and will never be.----Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Learned Hand
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It appears the best that the 1200s are listed at is 58 hp and 68.7 torque. Not world beaters by any stretch.
Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and will never be.----Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and will never be.----Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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And here, a recent article says that the 2011 America has 60 hp and 53 torque. The 883 Sporty is deficient in this comparison then, and it weighs more. http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/259/9297/Motorcycle-Article/2011-Triumph-America-First-Ride.aspxI do see where the 2012 1200C has 79 torque, but no hp listed.
Last edited by HeneryHawk; 05/01/2012 11:00 PM.
Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and will never be.----Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Quote:
Quote:
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...No modification at all just stock vs stock.
Why dont you post a link to an recognized source proving your point? I can.
Well, let's lead by example!
I'm interested.
I agree. Demanding someone prove their point by claiming they have their own proof but not showing it is irrelevant. Everyone who has facts post them up. Butt dynos don't count. And actually, factory specs don't count. I think we all know they're often manipulated. Head-to-head results, with a valid measurement baseline and specifications spelled out, please.
I mean, really, let's take this pissing match to the next level and inject some science!
So factory specs dont count?!
Yea...that makes sense? You dismiss information from the engineers that actually designed and build the motorcycles and test them under controlled conditions but will accept some unknown quality third party source.
And yea, when the guy who "works at the motorcycle shop" made his "butt dyno" claim I called him on it. Still waiting to hear back on that from him.
But you are right about all of this just becoming another pointless internet "pissing match."
Here's the bottom line: I traded in my Honda on a Triumph that I bought brand new. Now I'm buying my wife the bike of her choice and trading in her Honda for a brand new Harley Davidson. To Triumph and Harley that's all that matters, selling NEW bikes keeps them both in business. It's called putting your money where your mouth is...and we have.
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Well, not to continue this "pissing match" here, because as I said much earlier in this thread, "I've always thought Sportsters were cool", I HAVE always wondered why in H-D's website and in their brochures they've always declined to post horsepower figures...that is unless I've overlooked 'em somehow along the way.
Of course, H-D's stock-in-trade has always pretty much been the strong torque figures one gets from their long-stroke pushrod engines, and so the only reason I could ever come up with as to why they seldom seem to post the HP figures of their bikes is that it would be of little interest to those interested in purchasing their product.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Per Todd's info., although a little dated, unless I'm reading it wrong, the VTX1300's are; Weight: 709-759  1/4 ET: 13.5-14.17 1/4 MPH: 90.55-95.?? Sportsters; Weight: 520-585 1/4 ET: 12.99-13.5 1/4 MPH: 93-100.11 Well!? 
And you may see me tonight
With an illegal smile
J. Prine
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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Quote:
So factory specs dont count?!
Yea...that makes sense? You dismiss information from the engineers that actually designed and build the motorcycles and test them under controlled conditions but will accept some unknown quality third party source.
And yea, when the guy who "works at the motorcycle shop" made his "butt dyno" claim I called him on it. Still waiting to hear back on that from him.
Settle down, Sport. All I was saying was independent verification. Marketing claims are often B.S. And even if they aren't intentionally B.S. they can't account for differences in road conditions, weather, temperature, rider error, tire composition, elevation, etc. etc. etc.
Bench racing (virtual or otherwise) is silly. Get both bikes on the same track with the same impartial rider. All mods (if any) on the table. Magazines routinely do this sort of thing but I'm not always sure they can be trusted (except maybe Motorcycle Consumer News) since they all take advertising dollars from the bike companies.
SCIENCE!
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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 Yep! Didn't we JUST have a Speedmaster blow off a Busa! 
And you may see me tonight
With an illegal smile
J. Prine
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Check Pants
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Check Pants
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Well it's my girl's bike now...and I can tell you it's faster than my America. So much fun to ride she picked a custom color that she knew would keep me from riding her bike:
Ill bet you still ride it...
Good looking bike! Congrats to the misses!
SOLD: 07 Black BA, 39mm FCRs, TPUSA stage 1 head, TPUSA 813 cams, TPUSA 10.8:1 pistons, TTP #3 igniter, Specialty Spares Long Cannons, Tsukayu Hard Bags. 82HP/55tq
NEW: 19 Goldwing Tour DCT
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Learned Hand
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Isn't the statement that this Sporty is faster than the America a butt dyno comment?
Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and will never be.----Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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The 883? Yes it is a butt Dyno statement. I think that would be a good match up. The 1200, no, the Sportster is way faster.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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The 883? Yes it is a butt Dyno statement. I think that would be a good match up. The 1200, no, the Sportster is way faster.
I'll put a 1200 up against my 904 though, and likely come out on top
Always remember to be yourself. Unless you suck. Then pretend to be someone else.
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Stickman Yogi
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Stickman Yogi
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I'll put a 1200 up against my 904 though, and likely come out on top
It's comments like that, that make me consider a 904 more and more...
Live to love, love to live.
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Stock Sporster RWHP = 58, T = 69, but still weighs 585 lb. Power-to-weigh ratio = 1:10, bearly breaking into the 12's in the 1/4 mile. STOCK, NO $$$$$$$.$$ to the 3rd power! 
And you may see me tonight
With an illegal smile
J. Prine
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Worn Saddle
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Power-to-weigh ratio = 1:10
Is it just me or is everyone else confusing power (torque) with top speed (horsepower)? 70 ft.lbs. of torque in a sub 600 lb bike stock is just jaw dropping....
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Quote:
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Power-to-weigh ratio = 1:10
Is it just me or is everyone else confusing power (torque) with top speed (horsepower)? 70 ft.lbs. of torque in a sub 600 lb bike stock is just jaw dropping....
Yep. The only advantage I can see that the Triumphs would have would be the wider powerband with the higher red line...our Triumphs are 7000rpm, while I believe the Sportsters are about 5500rpm...and with the Triumph's usable power still on tap for another 1500rpm after the Sportster rider would have to shift into the next gear.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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Quote:
Quote:
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Power-to-weigh ratio = 1:10
Is it just me or is everyone else confusing power (torque) with top speed (horsepower)? 70 ft.lbs. of torque in a sub 600 lb bike stock is just jaw dropping....
Yep. The only advantage I can see that the Triumphs would have would be the wider powerband with the higher red line...our Triumphs are 7000rpm, while I believe the Sportsters are about 5500rpm...and with the Triumph's usable power still on tap for another 1500rpm after the Sportster rider would have to shift into the next gear.
Off the line, the HD torque is gonna take control. I would think once you jam second or third gear, the Triumph will fly by and put considerable distance between in the 1/4
Always remember to be yourself. Unless you suck. Then pretend to be someone else.
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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Given enough distance and a 904 or better I totally agree that the wider power band is an advantage. I'm thinking it would be a very close 1/4 mile.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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To be honest, the only true fair test would be a 1200 Sporty against at least a 1087, since we all know that size is everything, right?
Always remember to be yourself. Unless you suck. Then pretend to be someone else.
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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I think the only fair test would be a 10K bike against a 10K bike.  Power to dollar ratio!!!
And you may see me tonight
With an illegal smile
J. Prine
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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Man, I'd like to see that! I'm always pulling for our bikes to blow away the competition I just have to tip my hat to reality...but wouldn't it be fine to watch Z's newly updated motor take on a stock 1200?
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Well Ed, then my money would be on Z's bike...and we'd see if that old saw, "There's no replacement for displacement", gets shot with a few holes. (...and I'm thinkin' those DOHCs on Z's bike would be the "replacement" in this equation, wouldn't ya say?!)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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Well, that is the old push rod dilemma isn't it? Lots of grunt but you really have to jack the displacement to gain the ponies. I'll bet Z's spins up so nice that the top end of third would be a walk away...hard to guess the distance, though, surely over an eighth but might end up crowding the quarter as well. I'd love to witness it.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Quote:
Quote:
Power-to-weigh ratio = 1:10
Is it just me or is everyone else confusing power (torque) with top speed (horsepower)? 70 ft.lbs. of torque in a sub 600 lb bike stock is just jaw dropping....
You are correct.
We took delivery about a week ago and are still breaking in the engine so havent run it hard yet.
This Harley 1200 Sportster is tuned for torque and it works great on the street. Fifty percent more torque than a Triumph Bonneville and about the same weight. Accelerating zero to 60 and through the quarter mile the bike is quite fast (yes I'll say it again, it accelerates through the 1/4 mile faster than my Triumph) ...and it should with it's displacement advantage.
It's a great street bike, quickly accelerates to any legal road speed and it runs about 800 RPM lower than my Triumph at 65mph on the highway. That is an estimate because the Harley has no tach yet. You really dont need one though because while the Triumph pulls good into the upper RPM the Harley's power falls off and the rider can feel there is no point in reving it further.
Quicker acceleration around town and a relaxed lower highway cruise RPM make for a good street bike.
Wish Triumph's stock exhaust sounded like the Harley's, just enough noise so you know you are riding a motorcycle. The Harley vibration everyone talks about is not objectionable, since 2004 Sportster engines have been rubber mounted and the vibration that gets through is not buzzy like high rpm bikes.
My wife likes her new bike and that's the main thing, will post pictures soon.
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Not sure if it has been corrected or not but I never liked the way HD rubber mounted the engine and exhaust. The older ones jumped around and looked like something was broken.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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That hasn't changed much, BUT you do know that that happens only at engine idling speeds, don't ya Ian?!
Once ya give rubber-mount H-Ds any amount of throttle, they pretty much smooth right out.
(...though keep in mine here that I'm NOT takin' back what I said much earlier in this thread about "By now H-D should've redesigned the Sportster engine and placed a balance shaft inside that beautiful engine", like they did about a decade ago with their Big Twin Softtails)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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I know that but I wouldn't want a bike sitting there at idle when people are looking at the bike with the exhaust and engine jumping around like there isn't anything holding it in place. Just like when I first saw one and told the owner something must be broken and he replied that it was rubber mounted.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Well heck Ian, I'm surprised he didn't ALSO give that often heard excuse that THAT just gives his Harley "character"!!!
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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I know that but I wouldn't want a bike sitting there at idle when people are looking at the bike with the exhaust and engine jumping around like there isn't anything holding it in place. Just like when I first saw one and told the owner something must be broken and he replied that it was rubber mounted.
The stock fuel injected 1200 Sportster doesnt move much, but some of the big twin Harleys can really shake at idle especially if they have SE performance cams, or older carb models etc.
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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Re: Ordered a new 1200C Sportster
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 688
Adjunct
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OP
Adjunct
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 688 |
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Well heck Ian, I'm surprised he didn't ALSO give that often heard excuse that THAT just gives his Harley "character"!!!
Each bike does have it's own "character" even from the same manufacturer. A 1200 Sportster is different from an Ultra Classic, A V-Rod or a balance shaft Softail. Same as the "character" of a Bonneville vs a Speed Triple or a Rocket.
2011 Triumph America (10/2011 to 07/2014)
2012 Harley Davidson 1200C Sportster
2014 Harley Davidson Dyna Wide Glide
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