 Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
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But that is the point and has been demonstrated so; here is the link once again. The biggest travesty came with the use of DNA evidence but there are several cases in addition to that.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executed-possibly-innocent
Your points are very well stated Matt, and I agree with them.
You will find, however, that there are some who are simply unable to set aside their deeply held beliefs and will label anyone who feels conter to their opinions as "squeamish".
Absolutely, with the death penalty there is no margin. Anything less than 100% is murder.
In fact our entire criminal justice system is the result of societal laziness, incarceration is easier than rehabilitation.
We simply put minor criminals away with hardened criminals to get their PHDs in antisocial behavior. It has nothing to do with justice and everything to do with convenience.
Which leads back to why do we have people willing to take a human life because a murder was committed without regard for executing the correct criminal? If the wrong person is executed, not only have we unjustly taken a life but it closes the case and the real murderer gets a pass.
Right to life, my eye.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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If putting a known murderer to death is state sponsored murder why is locking him up for life not state sponsored kidnapping? If we lock them away for the remainder of their lives with less than 100% absolute and complete certainty of their guilt how is that morally superior to putting them to death?
There are plenty of cases where killers have either killed others while in prison, including guards, or killed again upon release. What justice is there for those victims? Should we say that is just the price we should expect to pay for being so civilized and morally superior?
Maybe we should be like Norway where Anders Breivik, the killer of 75 or so mostly kids, will get a maximum of 21 years in what is essentially an apartment with locks on the outside of the doors. He was seen on TV doing the deed and admitted it as well. Should he have the chance to get out and possibly do it again? I guess the Norwegians do.
As for the "right to life" crack. Cold blooded murderers have, by their actions, forfeited that right.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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I could have made some dough betting on that response  If I could find anyone to take the bait , er bet that is  You're nothing if not predictable  In case you missed it: The discussion had turned to those wrongly convicted, which despite your assertions to the contrary do exist; and in disturbing numbers.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Joined: Sep 2010
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Second Wind
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OP
Second Wind
Joined: Sep 2010
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If they had been exiled they wouldn't have been able to do that.
No, but they could have tried it on their fellow exiles. A few problems with the exile idea. How do you keep the exiles buddies from picking them up and bringing them back? Do you provide and law and order for the exiles, or are they free to prey on each other in any matter they wish?
Which brings us back to capital punishment. If we are too squeamish to execute the worst of criminals, does throwing them into the penal system and allowing their fellow criminals to do the job really absolve us of responsibility for their deaths?
Yes, Because they know that commiting a felonious act will get you dropped at the exile island. That makes it quite like placing your hand in a lions mouth. you know he will bite so if you do, the lion is not guilty you become stupid for putting your hand in there.
As far as insuring that they never return here but remain on the island. Thats cheaper and easier than maintaining prisons. #1 use an island near a military base so it can be defended easily, and without added expense. Then watch it with a single satellite that we have up there already, like one of the google earth rig or one of the many miliary rigs. Its easier to pay three or four shifts of three guys than the thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands we employ now as prison guards now. And it should be markedly less expensive than maintaining huge numbers of extremely expensive buildings.
They will certainly have less of an opportunity to escape than that fella locked up for 21 years in an apartment. Then after 21 years if he don't escape he comes back into society to do what? Kill again, resort to robbery, to pay for his meals, get on the welfare ******. What can a man who is so twisted that he kills so many bring of value to the table of society. If the evidence is so over whelming that he is guilty death is the only humane punishment to him and soiciety.
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: Jul 2007
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Any of these "exile" to an island ideas with their fellow murderers would fall under the heading, "cruel and unusual punishment. After all, Manson is still kept out of the general prison population so he doesn't get hurt. So was that Bundy creep. Maybe we should redefine "cruel and unusual".
Fidelis et Fortis
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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How is it cruel and unusual, Its one of the oldst punishments in society not very unusual there as for cruelty its clearly less cruel than prison. You only have to open your eyes to see that prison is horrenously cruel, and that there have been successful societies born out of exile colonies. The Acaidian exiles 1755 -1762 into now Boston, and the Australia exlies, are two from modern history. Many believe that native Jamaicans are Ethiopian exiles.
It would be difficult to argue that exile is worse than emprisonment.
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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Just take non-violent and low violence offenders out of the prison system and put them back in society where they will have to work and pay restitution for their crimes. If there is no victim there is no crime, so those don't even belong in the system.
That will give the system more time and space to deal with violent offenders.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
Quote:
How is it cruel and unusual, Its one of the oldst punishments in society not very unusual there as for cruelty its clearly less cruel than prison. You only have to open your eyes to see that prison is horrenously cruel, and that there have been successful societies born out of exile colonies. The Acaidian exiles 1755 -1762 into now Boston, and the Australia exlies, are two from modern history. Many believe that native Jamaicans are Ethiopian exiles.
It would be difficult to argue that exile is worse than emprisonment.
Interesting idea Chad. But to where would we exile them? I don't know if there any uninhabited habitable places left.
Last edited by bigbill; 02/12/2012 10:58 PM.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Joined: Aug 2007
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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Quote:
Interesting idea Chad. But to where would we exile them? I don't know if there any uninhabited habitable places left.
build a fence around Kansas
Always remember to be yourself. Unless you suck. Then pretend to be someone else.
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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Just take non-violent and low violence offenders out of the prison system and put them back in society where they will have to work and pay restitution for their crimes. If there is no victim there is no crime, so those don't even belong in the system.
That will give the system more time and space to deal with violent offenders.
Agreed
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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Posts: 6,821 |
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Interesting idea Chad. But to where would we exile them? I don't know if there any uninhabited habitable places left.
build a fence around Kansas
We're trying to avoid "cruel and unusual" here Dave.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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Quote:
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How is it cruel and unusual, Its one of the oldst punishments in society not very unusual there as for cruelty its clearly less cruel than prison. You only have to open your eyes to see that prison is horrenously cruel, and that there have been successful societies born out of exile colonies. The Acaidian exiles 1755 -1762 into now Boston, and the Australia exlies, are two from modern history. Many believe that native Jamaicans are Ethiopian exiles.
It would be difficult to argue that exile is worse than emprisonment.
Nothing productive is coming out of NYC. Plus, there's a moat around it. Good use for a wasteland.
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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NYC ruined the Poconos, I'm all for walling them in.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
Joined: Jan 2005
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AS WAS FORETOLD IN THE EPIC WORK, "ESCAPE FROM NEW YORK!" 
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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You mean that wasn't a documentary?  
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Quote:
I could have made some dough betting on that response
If I could find anyone to take the bait , er bet that is
You're nothing if not predictable
In case you missed it: The discussion had turned to those wrongly convicted, which despite your assertions to the contrary do exist; and in disturbing numbers.
Right, and you of course can always be depended upon for something original. Never one to slavishly follow an Amnesty International, pseudo European Green, Jimmy Carter, smug leftist sort of course. You can always be depended upon for completely original thought. I'm sure it is simply coincidence that it is identical to that vast herd of independent thinkers who all think exactly the same as the hosts at MSNBC.
I'm sure you thought your laser like focus on the vanishingly tiny minority of death row inmates about whom there is a scintilla of doubt concerning their guilt (except among diehard activists that is) would sway those of us among the great unwashed ignorant masses so in need of your enlightened guidance. Personally, I'm not that easily convinced. I've heard the arguments before. Sorry to disappoint, I thought they were largely nonsense fifteen years ago when I voted in favor of the death penalty in the legislature and they have gained no legitimacy with time.
The fact that you did not respond to a single one of my arguments (or for that matter, anyone else's), and instead gave me your standard smug dismissive post, informs me that you are simply outclassed and unable to mount an effective counter argument. I find that to be quite common among those who fervently stand up for both the lives of vicious killers and Planned Parenthood. (Hey, YOU brought that into the conversation.)
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
Joined: Jan 2005
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And we did so well on the global warming thread. 
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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I feel the need to ask Larry, is 1 wrongly convicted person put to death too much? I am for the death penalty but I do find the recent number of people formerly on death row that have now been exonerated through DNA testing disturbing. Not that I know any of them but what if that were you or me? Does it then become too many? Not trying to be confrontational just asking.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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contrary do exist; and in disturbing numbers.
vast herd of independent thinkers who all think exactly the same as the hosts at MSNBC.
I assume you're referring to Joe Scarborough and Pat Buchannon (and before them Michael Savage, Ann Coulter and Laura Ingraham). Yep, they, and plenty of other conservatives are or were all MSNBC hosts/contributors. While MSNBC presents something rare (a liberal opinion network) unlike the competition they have/had lots of conservatives with their own shows as well.
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Saddle Sore
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Saddle Sore
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The people that get murdered every day are also wrongly sentenced to death with no hope of a court to decide their fate. There is no hope of being found not guilty, they are simply and without cause murdered. I would take any bet anyone has to offer that wrongly convicted people put to death by our court system is minuscule in comparison to the numbers of innocent victims murdered every day.
No two wrongs will make a right, but the sheer knowledge that the state will put you to death if found guilty of murder has to be a deterrent to the bad guys. I guarantee you a majority of felons in prison for rape, murder etc know what states have the death penalty and what states do not.
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Quote:
Quote:
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contrary do exist; and in disturbing numbers.
vast herd of independent thinkers who all think exactly the same as the hosts at MSNBC.
I assume you're referring to Joe Scarborough and Pat Buchannon (and before them Michael Savage, Ann Coulter and Laura Ingraham). Yep, they, and plenty of other conservatives are or were all MSNBC hosts/contributors. While MSNBC presents something rare (a liberal opinion network) unlike the competition they have/had lots of conservatives with their own shows as well.
Oh, you must mean those fair and balanced folks like: Christina Brown, Dara Brown, Mika Brzezinski, Willie Geist, Chris Jansing, Savannah Guthrie, Tamron Hall, Rachel Maddow, Chris Matthews, Craig Melvin, Andrea Mitchell, JJ Ramberg, Dylan Ratigan, Milissa Rehberger, Joe Scarborough, Ed Schultz, Chuck Todd & Alex Witt. With the exception of Joe Scarborough I know of none of them that is not a raving leftist, and he is no kind of conservative. Throw in Keith Olbermann while you're at it. Any commentator who might give an alternative view was tossed out years ago.
MSNBC Rare? You are certainly joking. ABC, NBC, CBS, CNN & PBS long ago declared war on conservatives. They may each have a pet semi-conservative but they are routinely put on a panel with 3 to 5 lefties. To call those networks anything other than apologists for the left is nonsense.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Joined: Aug 2007
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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can we lock this thread down yet? 
Always remember to be yourself. Unless you suck. Then pretend to be someone else.
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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We could just dump them on Cuba.
Anyway, Come on guys are we gonna go to insulting each other, naming pollies, and so called newsies.
We have to be smarter than that. We need to think for ourselves regardless of what one side or the other says does or thinks.
This is a call for us to rise above the fray see things for the reality of it and use logic to suggest an answer.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Joined: May 2010
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Check Pants
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Check Pants
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Quote:
We could just dump them on Cuba.
Too late for that, 'member the the big boat lift for all of Castro s undesirables a few years back? Fidel emptied his prisons on Florida.
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Quote:
I feel the need to ask Larry, is 1 wrongly convicted person put to death too much? I am for the death penalty but I do find the recent number of people formerly on death row that have now been exonerated through DNA testing disturbing. Not that I know any of them but what if that were you or me? Does it then become too many? Not trying to be confrontational just asking.
Is one wrongly convicted person sent to prison for life too much? Is it ok for an innocent man to spend 50 years in jail? Are you willing to accept that? Are we going to demand 100% perfection in the legal system before anyone can be held accountable? If we demand it for capital punishment why not for imprisonment? After all, convicts are much more likely to die at the hands of other convicts than be executed by the state.
Still, that is not the point. It is only a talking point held out by the anti capital punishment activists. If that were actually their main objection they wouldn't defend those killers about whom there is NO doubt just as vociferously as they do those for whom some case can be made.
The police shoot and kill a number of people every year. Some percentage of those people are killed because the government screwed up and went to the wrong address and are shot on purpose but in error, others are simply in the wrong place at the wrong time and die at the hands of the police anyway. Following the logic of the anti capital punishment movement the police should be disarmed so that these kind of tragedies cannot occur. Is there an acceptable percentage of innocent people that can be killed at the hands of the government? Is it OK to kill just one?
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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Right, turnabouts fair play.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825
"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825 |
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can we lock this thread down yet?
Aw, I just made some popcorn.
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Quote:
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We could just dump them on Cuba.
Too late for that, 'member the the big boat lift for all of Castro s undesirables a few years back? Fidel emptied his prisons on Florida.
That's an idea. Take them to GITMO and push them through the gate. Let Castro figure out what to do with them. He should have the room.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Quote:
Quote:
can we lock this thread down yet?
Aw, I just made some popcorn.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Joined: Sep 2010
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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I know we are never going solve anymore problems because we are listening to people who are so insulated from the real world they have no way of answering real world problems. They have their agendas and sell the hell out of them. Geez guys they call the area that most of us live "Fly over America". They don't value you or your homes. We are just a space that they fly over so they have time to sniff their own farts, and make up stories between rubbing each others #######.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825
"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825 |
Quote:
I know we are never going solve anymore problems because we are listening to people who are so insulated from the real world they have no way of answering real world problems. They have their agendas and sell the hell out of them. Geez guys they call the area that most of us live "Fly over America". They don't value you or your homes. We are just a space that they fly over so they have time to sniff their own farts, and make up stories between rubbing each others #######.
You wouldn't be talking about ::gasp:: POLITICIANS would you?  Please say yes to this can be over...
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
Joined: Sep 2010
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Nope......Newsies.
If ya want me to I could say something about pollies.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825
"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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Dang it, that's what I was afraid you meant.
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Okay, I'm sorry to admit I've read this whole thread here and yet I STILL have one question here... WHAT THE HELL IS A FRIGGIN' "TEEAGER"?????  (...what?!!...is the letter "N" superfluous in the those "Fly-Over States" now???) 
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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Ha,ha,ha,ha you caught my typo that I didn't notice until it was too late. I did try to fix it but it was too late. Thats funny.
If it makes ya feel better I can say something political so you can lock the thread if your just itching too do it.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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According to a recent Stanford University study, over a 6 month period in 2011 71% of the panelists on Sunday morning network political broadcasts were conservative/Republicans. The 'liberal media' myth died many years ago. Only true ideologues still try to make that claim anymore.
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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Stanford is liberal, so they have an agenda.
71% For half a day on Sunday is easily over riden by the other 6 day a week.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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Quote:
Quote:
I could have made some dough betting on that response
If I could find anyone to take the bait , er bet that is
You're nothing if not predictable
In case you missed it: The discussion had turned to those wrongly convicted, which despite your assertions to the contrary do exist; and in disturbing numbers.
Right, and you of course can always be depended upon for something original. Never one to slavishly follow an Amnesty International, pseudo European Green, Jimmy Carter, smug leftist sort of course. You can always be depended upon for completely original thought. I'm sure it is simply coincidence that it is identical to that vast herd of independent thinkers who all think exactly the same as the hosts at MSNBC.
I'm sure you thought your laser like focus on the vanishingly tiny minority of death row inmates about whom there is a scintilla of doubt concerning their guilt (except among diehard activists that is) would sway those of us among the great unwashed ignorant masses so in need of your enlightened guidance. Personally, I'm not that easily convinced. I've heard the arguments before. Sorry to disappoint, I thought they were largely nonsense fifteen years ago when I voted in favor of the death penalty in the legislature and they have gained no legitimacy with time.
The fact that you did not respond to a single one of my arguments (or for that matter, anyone else's), and instead gave me your standard smug dismissive post, informs me that you are simply outclassed and unable to mount an effective counter argument. I find that to be quite common among those who fervently stand up for both the lives of vicious killers and Planned Parenthood. (Hey, YOU brought that into the conversation.)
Yer killin' me, stop!
C'mon Larry, give us some evidence for your assertions that there are no wrongly convicted people on death row. You've been given evidence to the contrary.
And I don't mean opinions from some whack job "think tank".
(See if you can avoid personal insults, it really hurts your image......... )
Last edited by bigbill; 02/14/2012 10:50 PM.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 740
Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 740 |
West Memphis 3.....anyone?
Bill.
"I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered."
-George Best
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Re: Those wacky teeagers.
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825
"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825 |
Jeez, this is still going? Oy.
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