 Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: Nov 2009
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Loquacious
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OP
Loquacious
Joined: Nov 2009
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I can't say that I am happy with the idea of the Keystone XL pipeline for selfish reasons, I'd rather keep the stuff for ourselves.  Wonder if some of those people prattling on about it have ever seen this map the one that keeps their cars running, lights on and homes heated. Routes might be modified for maintaining sensitive areas but this is reality. Of course if we could use a little less we might return to previous "This is very interesting" post.  http://www.theodora.com/pipelines/north_america_oil_gas_and_products_pipelines.html
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: Dec 2006
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New Tires
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New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
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Thanks for the offer, but we don't need cheap energy. Besides we got a $40 a month tax cut for the next 60 days and at the wind and solar farms it's plowin time again. 
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7 |
There are already hundreds of thousands of miles of pipelines within the United States. Any claim that this one is somehow more dangerous than all the ones already in operation is nonsense. This is from the same idiots who think $10 a gallon gas and crippling the economy is a good thing because it somehow makes them right with Gaia. Green Luddites!
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: Nov 2009
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Loquacious
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OP
Loquacious
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The price of oil has dictated to all and industry that if they want to get ahead (or just keep going) they can't keep running inefficient systems. The pipeline is about Supply at whatever the going rate for oil is. We got it you want it. The world will dictate the price you just want to make sure you can get some when you need it.
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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The city I live in is very progressive regarding energy. Propane fueled police cruisers, hybrid city buses, LED street lamps, solar arrays on school rooftops, energy efficient construction. The initial outlay cost some bucks (much of it offset by cost sharing, incentives, etc.) but the annual savings are pretty impressive. Coincidentally, we didn't take near the financial hit most cities did during the Great Recession. People and businesses continued to invest keeping revenues healthy. Real estate maintained value because people find the city to be a desirable place to live. The people that relocate here tend to have more education.
From what I have been able to ascertain, this is pretty common in areas that are forward thinking regarding energy consumption. It's not always a question of austerity. Sometimes it's just about seeing beyond the end of your nose.
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: Jul 2007
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: Jul 2007
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The only thing I have against a new pipeline is my worry about how quality the work is done on it. I had a long talk to a pipeline worker a couple of months ago. (customer, I was fixing his rental) He has worked all over the country for thirty years and seemed to know his stuff. He said that the quality of the work has taken a huge hit the last few years. Too few inspectors run ragged keeping up, speed emphasised over quality control (we'll send repair crews back up the line to "straiten it up" later), exhausted crews working killer overtime. He said that if people knew what pipeline companies were doing, they'd be shocked and worried.
Fidelis et Fortis
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
I dunno.
Keystone brings to mind inept police and cheap, nasty beer.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: Dec 2006
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New Tires
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New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
We've always had spills from pipelines. The causes range from human error, equipment failure, natural disasters,etc. There are no sure things, it's about risk and what's the pay off to investors and society. XL and drilling off shore are no brainers. You would think energy was cheap and unemployment wasn't a problem. Besides, I'd rather be buying energy from our friends rather than dictators.  There was a time when these kinds of thing were called progress, But it seems our world view has changed. Now we (EPA) are shutting down coal fire plants because of minuscule parts per million amounts of mercury, which will increase utility cost, while at the same time mandating we screw miniature mercury environmental disasters into our light sockets.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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 Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 200
Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 200 |
I have lived and worked in the heart of the Oil & Gas fields of Alberta my entire life so to me "another pipeline" is just that "another pipeline". There is alway's going to be risk involved. The goal is to mitigate those risks to the point of the lowest acceptable level. When that point has been reached the project is then reviewed again and the decision made to move forward or cancel the project. Most people have know idea how many safeguards are put in place to reduce operational risk in a transmission line of this magnitude. But there is still going to be a remote chance that an incident may occur. As the maps in the link show, at this point in human evolution pipelines are a fact of life and will remain so until technology provides us with a safer more cost efficient means moving gas and liquid products. Just a side note, the maps only denote main arteries, there is thousands of miles of laterals just to get the product to the main pipelines. Just a little food for thought. 
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,354
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,354 |
The pipeline wuold bring badly needed jobs and additional energy security/stabilazation. Something this country needs but our Community Organizer-in-Chief refuses to acknowledge while he golfs away, on vacation, in Hawaii.
As I recall, propane was initially viewed as a waste product that was flared off in the drilling for natural gas.
Solar energy is ok, but is far from the single answer to our energy needs. If it was truly the solution, then the Middle East would be blanketed in solar arrays so they could sell more oil to the West. People who fall for the solar line are also not looking beyond the tip of their nose. There are many issues associated with solar that go directly against what the progressives believe.
I could go on, but I think the Friar will get upset with what I have to say here.
Suffice to say, I do support the idea of a Canadian pipeline bringing oil down to the US.
Blue/White 2007 TBA, Thruxton needles, Unifilter, AI removed, Polaris Bellmouth, Bubs, Nology Coils/wires, Lightbar, Ricor Intiminators, Hagon Nitros, Tall Sissy Bar w/luggage rack, Dart flyscreen & Lowers. 130 Mains, TrueGel Battery MG12-BS.
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: Sep 2010
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1 |
Another pipe line is another pipe line. I like the idea that Smokies town has. some townes may not be able to afford doing it all at once but doing stuff like that is good. Conservation is good. We should look at doing reasonable things to conserve energy. Even build another pipe line. We should not cripple the economy or any such thing that would hurt people. Just move forward with best innovations we can at the best pace we can achieve it at. Being cleaner and smarter about every thing is better. Why waist energy or the products we use to create energy? In the end we will have more for fun stuff like motorcycle riding. It could even result in cheaper prices.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
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New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
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As you are in the industry don't they x-ray the welds on pipelines or is that just for nuclear plants? I am just curious.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 200
Adjunct
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Adjunct
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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A side note as far as my city's move toward conservation, etc., is that we have created a thriving collection of expanding solar equipment providers. Local companies have gone from a dozens jobs in the industry eight years ago to over two hundred at year's end with no end in sight.
Another local company recently converted all their heating to solar and redesigned their build to use passive solar for much of their daytime lighting. As soon as they completed their conversion they got the contract to build tents for the Army. As it turns out, the only way they could have provided the ongoing low bid was their conversion to solar. The Army uses LOTS of tents.
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: Sep 2010
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1 |
I am working on a totally solar powered tanning bed. That is going to make me a fortune.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
Quote:
I am working on a totally solar powered tanning bed. That is going to make me a fortune.
Coal fired solar?
Tanning beds are right up there with bottled water as far as scams go. Another investment I missed out on because there's simply no way anyone would actually pay money for that.
I coulda been rich.
Last edited by Smokey3214; 12/31/2011 10:47 PM.
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
Call it a vitamin D generator, you'll clean up.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,354
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,354 |
Quote:
A side note as far as my city's move toward conservation, etc., is that we have created a thriving collection of expanding solar equipment providers. Local companies have gone from a dozens jobs in the industry eight years ago to over two hundred at year's end with no end in sight.
Sounds like Solyndra...
Quote:
Another local company recently converted all their heating to solar and redesigned their build to use passive solar for much of their daytime lighting. As soon as they completed their conversion they got the contract to build tents for the Army. As it turns out, the only way they could have provided the ongoing low bid was their conversion to solar. The Army uses LOTS of tents.
Passive solar for their lighting ? They must not get much work done during the winter then, or if it's cloudy or snowing.
I'm sorry Smokey, after 30+ years in the energy industry (power generation), I just don't take the "solar is the solution to all our problems" line espoused by progressives who are hell bent on destroying current, proven & safe energy resources.
It has it's niche and that's fine. I'm even looking at using solar and wind power to offset my electrical costs for a house I'm building in Thailand. But it's not the magic device to save us all.
Blue/White 2007 TBA, Thruxton needles, Unifilter, AI removed, Polaris Bellmouth, Bubs, Nology Coils/wires, Lightbar, Ricor Intiminators, Hagon Nitros, Tall Sissy Bar w/luggage rack, Dart flyscreen & Lowers. 130 Mains, TrueGel Battery MG12-BS.
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
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I'm not giving opinions, just sharing the facts. This is what they did and all these jobs are the result. Sorry if that bothers you.
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
(Jessica Rabbit screaming): Ooooooh my gawd, IT'S FAAAAAACTS!!!!!  (Facts of course, doing to popular cultural mythology what dip did to Toons)
Last edited by bigbill; 01/01/2012 12:07 AM.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1
Second Wind
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Second Wind
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1 |
Quote:
Quote:
A side note as far as my city's move toward conservation, etc., is that we have created a thriving collection of expanding solar equipment providers. Local companies have gone from a dozens jobs in the industry eight years ago to over two hundred at year's end with no end in sight.
Sounds like Solyndra...
Quote:
Another local company recently converted all their heating to solar and redesigned their build to use passive solar for much of their daytime lighting. As soon as they completed their conversion they got the contract to build tents for the Army. As it turns out, the only way they could have provided the ongoing low bid was their conversion to solar. The Army uses LOTS of tents.
Passive solar for their lighting ? They must not get much work done during the winter then, or if it's cloudy or snowing.
I'm sorry Smokey, after 30+ years in the energy industry (power generation), I just don't take the "solar is the solution to all our problems" line espoused by progressives who are hell bent on destroying current, proven & safe energy resources.
It has it's niche and that's fine. I'm even looking at using solar and wind power to offset my electrical costs for a house I'm building in Thailand. But it's not the magic device to save us all.
Its not a cure all, but everything you can do to save ya money is conserving energy. If more people participate it could end up being a very signifigant amount of fuel use reduction. I mean if say just every house were fitted with solar the power drain on the grid would be reduced and many black outs and brown outs could be done away with. Now if all the buildings in the down town areas, and industial areas of every city converted to "green roofs" (Thats where they grow grardens on the roof). They are known to cool the roofs off and lower energy bills. You say its only a drop in the bucket, but many drops in the bucket can change the water level alot. I say do all we can do. It creates jobs. We don't need to kill the economy with rediculous energy taxes though. People will convert when its financialy viable.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1
Second Wind
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Second Wind
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1 |
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
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New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
Info on the solar market that will put it in economic sense. http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/12/23/us-solar-shakeout-idUSTRE7BM0AG20111223It will also explain why there is opposition to new supplies of natural gas. It will also explain, from the manufactures' mouths, why in the best case they can only compete with nuclear on a cost basis.
Last edited by MACMC; 01/01/2012 11:11 AM.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,354
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,354 |
Quote:
Its not a cure all, but everything you can do to save ya money is conserving energy. If more people participate it could end up being a very signifigant amount of fuel use reduction. I mean if say just every house were fitted with solar the power drain on the grid would be reduced and many black outs and brown outs could be done away with. Now if all the buildings in the down town areas, and industial areas of every city converted to "green roofs" (Thats where they grow grardens on the roof). They are known to cool the roofs off and lower energy bills. You say its only a drop in the bucket, but many drops in the bucket can change the water level alot. I say do all we can do. It creates jobs. We don't need to kill the economy with rediculous energy taxes though. People will convert when its financialy viable.
Chad,
yes it would be great but how many people can really and practically grow a lawn/garden on their roof. Maybe down south, where one is not as concerned with snow build up, allowing for flat roofs. And how will they maintain it ? I've got nothing against more greenery. Everytime I go to Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia or Singapore, I always notice how "comfortable" it is, yet they are both closer to the equator than Bangkok, Thailand. So, in theory, it should be hotter. Yet, KL & Singapore have far more greenery and trees throughout the city than Bangkok does. Bangkok bakes with all the concrete buildings.
I wonder how much area a solar array would take to supply all the power needs for just one house, here in the US. I know it will be alot in Thailand, I gots to have my A/C. How many people want to cover their roofs with these things and how durable are they to Mother Nature (rain, hail, snow, strong winds, etc) ? My understanding is that the solar cells are less effective in hotter weather (a problem for me in Thailand). I've also seen some comments, elsewhere, that the payback is calculated out to be 20+ years.
OK, there could be government grants. But that means money from the government that we just don't have to hand out. For your government grant, someone else still has to pay for it.
If you want guaranteed US jobs, for years to come, and stability in our fuel supplies, then the new Canadian pipeline should be built. If Obama kills it, he is anti-jobs and is not too concerned about our energy security.
But that's a topic for some other board, not here.
Sun is shining, I want to ride !!! 
Blue/White 2007 TBA, Thruxton needles, Unifilter, AI removed, Polaris Bellmouth, Bubs, Nology Coils/wires, Lightbar, Ricor Intiminators, Hagon Nitros, Tall Sissy Bar w/luggage rack, Dart flyscreen & Lowers. 130 Mains, TrueGel Battery MG12-BS.
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,702 Likes: 22
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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It has been around now for 1/2 century. It powers 80% of France's buildings. It powers the U.S. Fleet. It provides power to destroyed cities after a tidal wave from the ships plug and play capabilities. Nuclear power IMHO is the best bang for the buck. Three Mile Island did not melt down, Chernobyl was about a broke government doing stuff on the cheap never to repeat itself. Japan survived a tidal wave after building in exactly the wrong place. We need to develop it globally. As we do we will learn geometrically about disposal and maximizing its uses. Had the industrial revolution depended on wind, batteries, or solar it never would have happened. Not enough power for the buck. There I said it, Nuclear is green. 
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: Sep 2010
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1 |
I'm pro nuclear, But I hate nucular. No realy I'm pro nuclear. along with developing other alturnatives. You canreduce your electric bill with solar as it is. I just say keep everything on the table. NO NEW TAXES ON OIL. though let the market develope the product it will sell. It always does. Mean while build the new pipeline and drill preferably on land but in the seas as well what ever it takes.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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I don't have the exact numbers in front of me but Texas wind farms generate the equivalent of 10 nuclear power facilities.
Just another piece of the puzzle.
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: Jan 2006
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Posts: 7,702 Likes: 22 |
Our wind farms are about the size of Connecticut. The total wind energy produced in the U.S. is about 2% of our needs. Just one of our farms is 154 square miles. In order to generate 20% or our domestic electricity we would need a land area the equivalent size of the 17th largest Sate in the U.S. Remember it also has to be high or valley or coastal for maximum effect. I think we should line the outer banks with wind mills. I wonder how far that would get in N.C. A nuclear plant makes about 1200 MW on about 200 acres. Our Roscoe wind farm makes 781 MW using 154 square miles. 154 square miles of windmills would be pretty impressive off the outer banks. Especially once the bird migrations start. Those blades shred the birds by thousands a month if in a migratory route. A large number of us in Texas that drive that western route find it to be the ugliest desecration of our landscape any evil genius could ever conceive of. But, they do make electric. Smokey, I would gladly pay a bit more per month for my electricity if you guys would take all these windmills. Remember the scenery is an economic draw to areas where we live. Wind farming on a large scale would adversely effect tourism. Nobody is going to fly or drive in to check out your windmills. http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/ib_11.htm
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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I'm curious about something. I frequently hear about birds getting killed by wind turbines. I've seen hundreds of those things and it's hard for me to imagine a bird slow enough to get hit by one of those 60 foot blades. They don't move very fast. A car on the highway is way faster but there aren't thousands of birds along the roadside. What's the story on that?
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: Jan 2006
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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The span gets them confused. When they fly into the sun they fly between the towers and have no conception of the moving blade. They commit to a course and the blades chop them up. It amazes me how they do it but they do. You know they can't put them up where rare migrations occur because of it. Here ya go "Nationwide, about 440,000 birds are killed at wind farms each year, according to the Fish and Wildlife Service. " http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/06/local/la-me-adv-wind-eagles-20110606
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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Posts: 6,821 |
While not as space efficient as nuclear, solar thermal generating stations are much more so than wind farms.
The Ivanpah station near Vegas will put out around 400 MW on 4,000 acres.
Of course as the technology improves so will the output.
Same for wind, and there has been extensive research on bird safer turbine drives.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
The span gets them confused. When they fly into the sun they fly between the towers and have no conception of the moving blade. They commit to a course and the blades chop them up. It amazes me how they do it but they do. You know they can't put them up where rare migrations occur because of it.
Here ya go
"Nationwide, about 440,000 birds are killed at wind farms each year, according to the Fish and Wildlife Service. "
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/06/local/la-me-adv-wind-eagles-20110606
Impressive numbe, 440,000. Of course, let's put this in perspective, that's versus a MINIMUM of 97 MILLION by hitting windows or buildings, 4-5 MILLION to communication towers (but expected to be closer to 40 million after more thorough studies), tens of thousands to high tension power lines, 72 MILLION to pesticides, HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS to domestic and feral cats, and 60 MILLION to cars. SO, these VERY conservative numbers from 2002 add up to well over HALF A BILLION birds versus at that time 33,000/year from wind turbines. Further, at the time, one of the biggest, Altamont in CA was placed right in the middle of a major migratory path. Better placement since has reduced this at other sites by 70-80% compared to Altamont. Still not great, but you are talking about less than half a million versus probably more than half a BILLION by other more common forms. Further, there are efforts to get these things offshore out of sight ( couple miles offshore) where they would be exposed to much more evenly sustained and constant winds. As for your statement about them being a blight on the landscape, I've seen the massive farms in western Kansas and eastern CO, as well as having stood directly under some 3.5MW turbines in Germany, and find them to be frankly breathtaking. Guess it's a matter of subjectivity. I'd have no problem seeing a field of them near my house, watching those massive blades slowly swing in the breeze. I've got to look at cell towers, and TV transmitters, and more oil and gas wells than I can shake a stick at, at least turbines are graceful looking unlike the gas rigs a half mile north south east and west of my house (hell I've got a storage tank 500 feet from my front door, lovely tan tank with chain link fence, hazmat warning signs, how aesthetically pleasing...
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
allowing for flat roofs. And how will they maintain it ? I've got nothing against more greenery. Everytime I go to Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia or Singapore, I always notice how "comfortable" it is, yet they are both closer to the equator than Bangkok, Thailand. So, in theory, it should be hotter. Yet, KL & Singapore have far more greenery and trees throughout the city than Bangkok does. Bangkok bakes with all the concrete buildings.
I wonder how much area a solar array would take to supply all the power needs for just one house, here in the US. I know it will be alot in Thailand, I gots to have my A/C. How many people want to cover their roofs with these things and how durable are they to Mother Nature (rain, hail, snow, strong winds, etc) ? My understanding is that the solar cells are less effective in hotter weather (a problem for me in Thailand). I've also seen some comments, elsewhere, that
Why does the roof have to be flat, why not tiered like rice paddies, or angled? Plants don't have to grow on flat surfaces. There are all kinds of low maintenance, low water , slow growth plants out there which would be suitable. Why is it that 2nd and 3rd world countries seem to be able to achieve what the United States spends all of its' time explaining why we CAN'T do what Malaysia does? Really makes me wonder about this country any more, so many excuses. We can't manufacture a or b here because of... We can't do alternative energy TOGETHER with nuke and gas because... We can't spend more on space exploration because... We can't educate our kids as well as South Korea or Finlad do because... WOW!
As far as solar panels, the size of a panel set for an average house is not that big, often resulting in a net return to the grid. Most are warranted for at least 20 years, and are made from the same kind of tempered glass that insulated windows are, they basically coat one side of a pane of glass with a cathode, another with the anode, connect the cells, and put them in a frame. Further, there are several companies out there now going into production with flexible cells that can be integrated with roof shingles instead of having separate panels roof mounted. Small wind turbines can be used as well in conjunction with solar (since winds usually pick up after sunset). Yes, costs need to come down, and with volume production that happens. I remain committed to the idea that we as a country CAN do these things, if we can find time to stop fighting, stop making excuses and stop whining...
I'll also argue that just because Obama might not support Keystone, doesn't mean he is anti-jobs or anti-energy, it just might be that his idea of a diverse energy portfolio doesn't align with yours or mine, and sorry but a job building solar panels benefits the local economy just as much as one maintaining a gas well.
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
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New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
IT's not a matter of education, it's economics. When solar can compete with the cheapest form of electricity generation it will make economic sense. When the purpose of installing solar is for energy generation and not tax write offs it will boom. The same goes for all green tech. It would be interesting to know how many that support this tech has spent $14000 TO $30000 retro fit their homes.
Last edited by MACMC; 01/02/2012 10:11 AM.
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,702 Likes: 22
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,702 Likes: 22 |
We can do these things. There is not one single reason anybody on this forum cannot put on a green roof. Unless you want me to help you. I will not give you one dollar of mine to do it.
Cost is the big thing for a green roof. 3 and 4 ply roofing cost between 4-7 bucks a square foot depending on the area. Building a green roof is equivalent to a 7 ply roof system. The roof framing must also be worked on to support that weight. Nearly every home in the south is built with smaller rafters and 24" centers as there is no snow load.
Probably about 10 bucks a foot for the contractor. That is $1000 bucks for every area 10x10. The vapor or moisture barrier still has a 20 year life expectancy. The typical house has over 2000 feet of roofing area. 20 grand for a roof. 35% of the nation has trouble growing grass let alone a roof. The sun cooks and kills in our south with lack or rain. Now you need a 5000 buck sprinkler system and a bigger water bill to keep your roof green.
You can certainly do it in Oregon and New England. Lichen are attached to their roofs now.
The people in the wetter regions need to weigh the cost to do it against the savings.
Labor is dirt cheap in most of the areas noted with dirt roofing. If I wanted to live in a mud hut I---- any number of endings for the sentence.
The University of Delaware on S. Chapel St. in Newark De. made a solar house in 1969. It was pretty cool! 45 years later with battery and panel development we are still begging the govt. for money to develop solar.
Common! If it was profitable and viable we would all have solar roofs by now.
The pipeline should be a go regardless of our fantasy belief that solar can run all of our needs. Without super conductors it cannot. Also look at the carbon imprint of a big battery from mining to disposal.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1
Second Wind
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Second Wind
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1 |
Quote:
Our wind farms are about the size of Connecticut. The total wind energy produced in the U.S. is about 2% of our needs. Just one of our farms is 154 square miles. In order to generate 20% or our domestic electricity we would need a land area the equivalent size of the 17th largest Sate in the U.S.
Remember it also has to be high or valley or coastal for maximum effect. I think we should line the outer banks with wind mills. I wonder how far that would get in N.C.
A nuclear plant makes about 1200 MW on about 200 acres. Our Roscoe wind farm makes 781 MW using 154 square miles.
154 square miles of windmills would be pretty impressive off the outer banks. Especially once the bird migrations start. Those blades shred the birds by thousands a month if in a migratory route.
A large number of us in Texas that drive that western route find it to be the ugliest desecration of our landscape any evil genius could ever conceive of.
But, they do make electric.
Smokey, I would gladly pay a bit more per month for my electricity if you guys would take all these windmills.
Remember the scenery is an economic draw to areas where we live. Wind farming on a large scale would adversely effect tourism. Nobody is going to fly or drive in to check out your windmills.
http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/ib_11.htm
I do have to agree with Ron here. Those wind mills are ridiculous. I would say they are more enviromentally harmful because they take up vast amounts of land for nominal energy production.
Also I am all for everyone getting solar panels on their house, but as of yet I can't afford any for me. So I don't want to pay for someone elses. They will be more affordable soon. If ya keep the gooberment out of it. They tend to keep the prices inflated. The private market can do the job.
Its not affordable yet and will not keep you off the grid.
Solar panels on houses are pretty popular in Australia.
I never intend that a green roof is a good idea for a house. For large structural steel buildings its great because you do it much like the ones in Chicago. The greenery is palnted in planters not in dirt directly on the roof. Very simular to going into a green house.
The one I saw in Chicago was very much like a park on the roof of the building with stone pavers to walk on and all the small trees like dogwoods were planted in individual planters. All the smller stuff had toughs and trays. It was quite nice. I'll see if I can't find a pic.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
I had, frankly, a LOT of money tied up in the Southern Company, a major energy supplier in several southern states. Most of my life savings. I followed their financials closely. Nuclear power most years lost money. Without government subsidies it never made money for the Southern Company.
I always though wind turbines look cool, kinda reminded me of sailboats, but that's all in the eye of the beholder. Never saw a smokestack or a cooling tower that I fancied.
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954 |
Quote:
I will not give you one dollar of mine to do it.
Cost is the big thing for a green roof.
I agree, I don't want to give a dollar to oil and gas either, yet here in Colorado alone, we give the gas industry alone over $300 Million a year, as well as almost unrestricted and cheap access rights to minerals (since the state owns ALL mineral rights, not the landowners except for a few cases). Same with tax breaks for the oil industry. Cut those immediately. They've been highly profitable for the most part of well over 100 years, they don't need those breaks.
I've already conceded that costs must come down.
And very few spout that solar and wind are the entire solution, but rather a way to reduce the demands on coal and gas so that we don't need as much dirty generation (and I'm not going down the path of "manufacturing wind turbines and solar panels is dirty" since the same can be said of coal mining, gas drilling and powerplant construction and operation, in the end solar and wind don't emit anything while operating) Yes, costs need to come down. Duke Power would not be what it is without Uncle Sam (Tennessee Valley Authority) nor do I suspect would most utilities. Point is, we should have a very well rounded portfolio of numerous energy sources, wind farms 5 miles offshore, geothermal, nuke, solar on rooftops, wave generators, gas and if a way can be developed to sequester emissions from coal, coal as well. All combined to develop a more robust and less polluting energy grid (unless you like the brown clouds we have out here held down by the inversion layers) that could contribute toward a reduction in dependence on foreign oil, assuming the battery issue with EV's is overcome (it will). Why allow anyone like Saudi Arabia or Iran to hold ANYTHING over our heads. See how quickly things crumble there if we were to reduce our consumption by even 10% and reduce our imports from them the same amount, let alone more. As mentioned many times, China is heading in this direction, and will soon own all of the manufacturing output for these technologies, and once again we here in the good old US of A will just add this to the list of things we must import from China. They are already outstripping us in the installation of this technology since they've seen that they can't fulfill their needs with only coal, and they don't have the restrictions on nuke plants that we have here, but haven't pursued a primarily nuke strategy anywhere.
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Re: Keystone XL pipeline
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,702 Likes: 22
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,702 Likes: 22 |
But Smokey, wind turbines have never made money. Mr. Pickens owns a ton of GE as well as his BP hedge fund who bought the bones of Enron. They spend more on lobby efforts in D.C. than all of oil combined.
From 2007 to 2010 he talked big on wind getting tons of investors and govt. money. He then scrapped it going back to oil. What a guy! Yes, he is the one who swift boated John Carey to get George the lessor elected.
Now he has moved onto to natural gas and assorted money mills. Follow Pickens and you will follow the pick pockets.
For all of their companies manufacturing they spent about 125 million to lobby D.C. for tax breaks, and incentive money.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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