 Re: Keystone XL pipeline
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
|
Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
Oh, sure, I understand they aren't currently making money right now.
I'm just saying neither is nuclear. Not without subsidies. Let's be real about subsides, nobody gets more subsidies than gas and oil production and that doesn't even include the sweetheart deals they get for leases on government land. That would be OUR land. I'd like to get a better deal from them for my share. Now, everybody can manipulate their bookkeeping, I understand that, but there is a strong case that can be made for nuclear being the MOST expensive way to generate electricity.
I'm not opposed to ANY of it. My position is, I'm in favor of ALL of it. In fact, that's where I don't understand the anti solar and anti wind argument. I appreciate the fossil argument and I appreciate the nuclear argument, I just don't get why someone would be opposed to 'green' energy. The more it is used the cheaper it will become. When we first started building nuclear power plants the cost was unbelievably high. In today's dollar WAY more than wind or solar. But the (mostly unfulfilled) promise was that it would be cheap, clean energy when we had more plants online. That's where we are with new energy sources right now.
|
|
|
Re: Keystone XL pipeline
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
|
|
Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
Regarding storage batteries for solar and wind, one of the ideas I like is to generate hydrogen from water and store the energy in the form of hydrogen. Toyota has announced that they will have a hydrogen fuel cell powered auto in the showrooms in 2014.
|
|
|
Re: Keystone XL pipeline
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
|
|
New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
Quote:
But Smokey, wind turbines have never made money. Mr. Pickens owns a ton of GE as well as his BP hedge fund who bought the bones of Enron. They spend more on lobby efforts in D.C. than all of oil combined.
From 2007 to 2010 he talked big on wind getting tons of investors and govt. money. He then scrapped it going back to oil. What a guy! Yes, he is the one who swift boated John Carey to get George the lessor elected.
Now he has moved onto to natural gas and assorted money mills. Follow Pickens and you will follow the pick pockets.
For all of their companies manufacturing they spent about 125 million to lobby D.C. for tax breaks, and incentive money.
They are all like that. Buffet is against the repeal of inheritance tax, buying up businesses from survivors is how he got started. Pickens would be a fool for not jumping on the band wagon. One of the KOCH brothers explained it, they fought against subsidies, but got in to the ethanol business in the end because their competitors did, you don't leave money on the table.
The truth is all these guys are philanthropist and good guys personally. If the gov distorts the markets, they are going to play by that reality. 
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
|
|
|
Re: Keystone XL pipeline
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
|
|
New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
Quote:
Regarding storage batteries for solar and wind, one of the ideas I like is to generate hydrogen from water and store the energy in the form of hydrogen. Toyota has announced that they will have a hydrogen fuel cell powered auto in the showrooms in 2014.
They are going to call it the Zeppelin. 
Just kidding. Hydrogen stores a lot of energy and is very volatile. That's why its not found free in nature, it has to be generated. You can't ignore the laws of thermo dynamics, it takes a lot of energy to generate adequate supplies of it. Not sure wind and solar at present or ever will generate enough. So most likely we are talking hydrogen produced on the present fossil grid.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
|
|
|
Re: Keystone XL pipeline
|
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,720
Check Pants
|
|
Check Pants
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,720 |
I couldn't help noticing the wimpy power transmission lines that emanate from the windmill generators I observed last summer (7900 mile ride). Even the wires that collect from hundreds of windmills, looked fairly small. Nothing like the big hurking transmission lines that come from nuke sites, coal-fired steam turbines and hydros. As an aside, could climate be affected by the un natural interference of wind patterns, such as from these propellers on a pole? Nobody studied that, I bet.
|
|
|
Re: Keystone XL pipeline
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954 |
Quote:
, could climate be affected by the un natural interference of wind patterns, such as from these propellers on a pole? Nobody studied that, I bet.
Don't know either, could 10, 20 or 80 story office buildings in every major city on Earth do that? Do we require an environmental impact study on the airstream when we build a new highrise?
|
|
|
Re: Keystone XL pipeline
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
|
|
New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
If the turbines at the base of Hoover Dam turned at that low RPM, Vegas would still be a couple of honky tonk bars and a gas station instead of the great city it is.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
|
|
|
Re: Keystone XL pipeline
|
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,720
Check Pants
|
|
Check Pants
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,720 |
Quote:
Quote:
, could climate be affected by the un natural interference of wind patterns, such as from these propellers on a pole? Nobody studied that, I bet.
Don't know either, could 10, 20 or 80 story office buildings in every major city on Earth do that? Do we require an environmental impact study on the airstream when we build a new highrise?
You need an EIS to build a outhouse in Washington State, perused a few studies to see what was involved, no mention of wind patterns, I remember of.
|
|
|
Re: Keystone XL pipeline
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954 |
Quote:
They are going to call it the Zeppelin.
Just kidding. Hydrogen stores a lot of energy and is very volatile. That's why its not found free in nature, it has to be generated. You can't ignore the laws of thermo dynamics, it takes a lot of energy to generate adequate supplies of it. Not sure wind and solar at present or ever will generate enough. So most likely we are talking hydrogen produced on the present fossil grid.
As long as the first hydrogen powered car isn't designed by the guys who designed the Pinto, we're OK!
Agreed, it takes energy to make energy, but our tiny little 26MW reactor on the was capable of running our electrolytic oxygen generator all day long as well as running the rest of the ships electronics and 35,000 HP propulsion unit. Imagine if that entire output were harnessed to only running hydrogen generators (the powerplant could easily fit into a site smaller than a 2500 sq foot house and 1/2 acre yard. The big benefit would be the complete elimination of all the nasty little pollutants burned by current ICE engines while still having the range of a normal gas or diesel engine, maybe better. I'm pretty sure that the biggest drawback to using hydrogen isn't the energy required to separate it, but the safety concerns of having a tankful of hydrogen in the back end of your car. Yes, gasoline is dangerous in an accident, but doesn't contain the energy of a similar amount of hydrogen. Still worth pursuing. As comparison, how much electricity from this same grid does it require to refine 1 gallon of gas from crude oil, and how does that one gallon of gas compare to 1 gallon of hydrogen with regard to specific energy output relative to the energy input required to produce it? 
|
|
|
Re: Keystone XL pipeline
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954 |
Mac, do the math on one of those 90meter turbines, the RPM's may seem slow, but the blade speed is actually pretty damn impressive.
|
|
|
Re: Keystone XL pipeline
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954 |
Quote:
no mention of wind patterns, I remember of.
Precisely, yet even a small highrise introduces a lot more drag and turbulence into the airstreams, since they are completly immovable and not designed for aerodynamics. Turbines are designed just like aircraft,for maximum aerodynamic efficiency, and reduced drag in order to maximize output in low wind situations and to be safe and stable during high wind situations like storms. I would bet the drag and turbulence from a bunch of small highrises in a small city like Everett, or Topeka greatly exceeds a huge field of 90meter turbines, yet we aren't telling city planners to start studying the impact of their buildings on the jet stream or wind patters, are we?
|
|
|
Re: Keystone XL pipeline
|
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,720
Check Pants
|
|
Check Pants
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,720 |
A lot of folks do not realize refinery's make an excess of power, as did US Steel, Gary Works did when I worked there as a Boilermaker apprentice and journeyman in the '70s. I have rehabbed (rebladed) turbines as old as built in the 20s, still making power. It has been a trend for some time now for industry to not let heat (energy) go to waste. The refinery at Anacortes, Wa has more turbines than I have fingers and toes. Here's one for the Green movement, in Cal. North of Napa, SW of Clear Lake, there was a small mountain area that had 14 Geo Thermal turbine stations making cheap power, but a small amount of naturally occurring Arsenic coincided with the steam. Even though the Arsenic was totally contained, the Greeners took 'em to court and shut the whole thing down. Hooray for them. Too bad for for us. Let's put some propellers on poles.
|
|
|
Re: Keystone XL pipeline
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
|
|
Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
Quote:
If the turbines at the base of Hoover Dam turned at that low RPM, Vegas would still be a couple of honky tonk bars and a gas station instead of the great city it is.
Arizona and California get the lions share of the dam power.
Vegas gets about 350 MW.
The majority of Vegas power comes from natural gas fired generating plants, and a couple of coal.
NVEnergy, the company that supplies Las Vegas' electricity, leads the nation in the use of solar and geothermal renewable resources.
Like others here, I say use it all, develop the technology and we'll all be better off..............Well, except for the coal and oil producers, they stand to lose a lot of dough. Hence the source of the opposition to alternative energy sources including nuclear. The mining and oil producing interests have mucho influence in D.C. and they don't want to see anything challenge their monopolistic hold on energy production so they will fight with every tool they can muster; including lies and attacks on the challengers.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
|
|
|
Re: Keystone XL pipeline
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
|
|
Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
Quote:
Quote:
Regarding storage batteries for solar and wind, one of the ideas I like is to generate hydrogen from water and store the energy in the form of hydrogen. Toyota has announced that they will have a hydrogen fuel cell powered auto in the showrooms in 2014.
They are going to call it the Zeppelin.
Just kidding. Hydrogen stores a lot of energy and is very volatile. That's why its not found free in nature, it has to be generated. You can't ignore the laws of thermo dynamics, it takes a lot of energy to generate adequate supplies of it. Not sure wind and solar at present or ever will generate enough. So most likely we are talking hydrogen produced on the present fossil grid.
No, we are talking about producing hydrogen on site at wind farms and solar farms. It is already being done on smaller scales.
|
|
|
Re: Keystone XL pipeline
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,702 Likes: 22
Monkey Butt
|
|
Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,702 Likes: 22 |
Good post Bill. We all know where the horsepower is for industry though. Just look at the large cruisers, aircraft carriers and submarines. The Abraham Lincoln ran all the lights on shore at the recovery efforts in Indonesia without working up a sweat. It can make enough electricity to power a city of 100,000. 
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
|
|
|
Re: Keystone XL pipeline
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
|
|
Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
Quote:
Quote:
But Smokey, wind turbines have never made money. Mr. Pickens owns a ton of GE as well as his BP hedge fund who bought the bones of Enron. They spend more on lobby efforts in D.C. than all of oil combined.
From 2007 to 2010 he talked big on wind getting tons of investors and govt. money. He then scrapped it going back to oil. What a guy! Yes, he is the one who swift boated John Carey to get George the lessor elected.
Now he has moved onto to natural gas and assorted money mills. Follow Pickens and you will follow the pick pockets.
For all of their companies manufacturing they spent about 125 million to lobby D.C. for tax breaks, and incentive money.
They are all like that. Buffet is against the repeal of inheritance tax, buying up businesses from survivors is how he got started. Pickens would be a fool for not jumping on the band wagon. One of the KOCH brothers explained it, they fought against subsidies, but got in to the ethanol business in the end because their competitors did, you don't leave money on the table.
The truth is all these guys are philanthropist and good guys personally. If the gov distorts the markets, they are going to play by that reality.
Kinda like how the new airport porno X-ray scanners are in all the major airports but Dulles, where the Congressmen fly out of. They aren't gonna go through those things. They probably don't go through at the other end, either.
|
|
|
Re: Keystone XL pipeline
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
|
|
New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
There are already portable "mini" reactors. Some have proposed using them dispersed geographically instead of large facilities. But, think of the security concerns in this age.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
|
|
|
Re: Keystone XL pipeline
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
|
|
New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
Quote:
Mac, do the math on one of those 90meter turbines, the RPM's may seem slow, but the blade speed is actually pretty damn impressive.
The speed that counts is the at the armature near the center, not out at the end of the blade.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
|
|
|
Re: Keystone XL pipeline
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
|
|
Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
I imagine there is a tremendous amount of torque.
|
|
|
Re: Keystone XL pipeline
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
|
|
New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
Yes! Glad I'm not one of those birds that try to stop them.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
|
|
|
Re: Keystone XL pipeline
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954 |
Quote:
The speed that counts is the at the armature near the center, not out at the end of the blade.
Oh, I know, still impressive though. I think I calculated out that at a normal wind velocity of 20 mph, a 90 meter turbine has a tip speed of about 120mph! Sure doesn't look like that when you sit and watch them though, even when you stand right under those blades like I did in Germany...
|
|
|
Re: Keystone XL pipeline
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954 |
Quote:
a small mountain area that had 14 Geo Thermal turbine stations making cheap power, but a small amount of naturally occurring Arsenic coincided with the steam. Even though the Arsenic was totally contained, the Greeners took 'em to court and shut the whole thing down. Hooray for them. Too bad for for us. Let's put some propellers on poles.
That is a shame, if the arsenic is naturally occurring and is normally released anyhow through a geothermal spring, I think it's stupid to shut it down, especially given how easy it would be to condense the steam after the power turbines and separate out the arsenic before releasing the condensate. Not terribly challenging, which makes me wonder if there is more to the story....
|
|
|
Re: Keystone XL pipeline
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954 |
Quote:
Yes! Glad I'm not one of those birds that try to stop them.
I don't know, Canadians can get pretty agressive and determined!!! 
|
|
|
Re: Keystone XL pipeline
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,354
Learned Hand
|
|
Learned Hand
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,354 |
Quote:
If the turbines at the base of Hoover Dam turned at that low RPM, Vegas would still be a couple of honky tonk bars and a gas station instead of the great city it is.
Actually, compared to most steam and gas turbines, the turbines used at Hoover (and other Dams) do turn rather slowly, yet still produce 60 HZ power. There's a nice little relationship between number of poles, rotor speed and frequency that dictate rotor speed.
Blue/White 2007 TBA, Thruxton needles, Unifilter, AI removed, Polaris Bellmouth, Bubs, Nology Coils/wires, Lightbar, Ricor Intiminators, Hagon Nitros, Tall Sissy Bar w/luggage rack, Dart flyscreen & Lowers. 130 Mains, TrueGel Battery MG12-BS.
|
|
|
Re: Keystone XL pipeline
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954 |
Quote:
Actually, compared to most steam and gas turbines, the turbines used at Hoover (and other Dams) do turn rather slowly, yet still produce 60 HZ power. There's a nice little relationship between number of poles, rotor speed and frequency that dictate rotor speed.
Correct, 180RPM's at the Hoover Dam Powerplant. Wind turbine blades turn at 5-20RPM, but are run through a gearbox and actually turn the genset at 750-3600 rpm. Rather pokey, huh?
|
|
|
Re: Keystone XL pipeline
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
|
|
New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
Quote:
Quote:
If the turbines at the base of Hoover Dam turned at that low RPM, Vegas would still be a couple of honky tonk bars and a gas station instead of the great city it is.
Arizona and California get the lions share of the dam power.
Vegas gets about 350 MW.
The majority of Vegas power comes from natural gas fired generating plants, and a couple of coal.
NVEnergy, the company that supplies Las Vegas' electricity, leads the nation in the use of solar and geothermal renewable resources.
From 1937 till 1955 Vegas got all their electricity from Hoover Dam. Prior to 1937 it was powered by electricity purchased from the railroad and gasoline generators. Of course this was all done by NV Energy or their grandparent.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
|
|
|
Re: Keystone XL pipeline
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
|
|
Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
I think it was southern Nevada Power at the time. And you're right about the time frame. Las Vegas was actually the first to receive power from the dam and that's what started the first boom and lit up "Glitter Gulch".
Of course the allotment from the dam wasn't enough to keep up with demand as the growth continued and H.H. moved in.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
|
|
|
Re: Keystone XL pipeline
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,354
Learned Hand
|
|
Learned Hand
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,354 |
Quote:
Quote:
Actually, compared to most steam and gas turbines, the turbines used at Hoover (and other Dams) do turn rather slowly, yet still produce 60 HZ power. There's a nice little relationship between number of poles, rotor speed and frequency that dictate rotor speed.
Correct, 180RPM's at the Hoover Dam Powerplant. Wind turbine blades turn at 5-20RPM, but are run through a gearbox and actually turn the genset at 750-3600 rpm. Rather pokey, huh?
I sense a fellow nuke in this crowd. Good on ya !! 
Blue/White 2007 TBA, Thruxton needles, Unifilter, AI removed, Polaris Bellmouth, Bubs, Nology Coils/wires, Lightbar, Ricor Intiminators, Hagon Nitros, Tall Sissy Bar w/luggage rack, Dart flyscreen & Lowers. 130 Mains, TrueGel Battery MG12-BS.
|
|
|
Re: Keystone XL pipeline
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7
Monkey Butt
|
|
Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7 |
The ugliest place I've seen recently was along I-10 heading into Los Angeles from Palm Springs. Those windmills reminded me of those pictures of the early days of oil with oil derricks every few hundred feet for miles. But then again, that is California where being PC Green trumps everything else so I guess it's OK.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
|
|
|
Re: Keystone XL pipeline
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954 |
Quote:
I sense a fellow nuke in this crowd. Good on ya !!
Steve, close. I made it partway through Nuke Power school back in 86-87, but was too preoccupied to survive (bad for me), so ended up an A-Ganger on 688 2nd Flight Subs. Loved it though, still kept me plenty entertained, and still have a healthy respect for Naval Nuclear Power. Frankly, I'd rather have them running our national nuke plants than the local energy companies. Having seen the education and rigor that one goes through in the nuke program makes me much more comfortable with their skills and decision making abilities than civilians that run them now.
|
|
|
Re: Keystone XL pipeline
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
|
|
Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
I'd like the Navy to run all the nukes in the country. Every phase of selection and training is so far beyond what the private sector demands.
I'd also like ex-military (preferably Navy as well) to fly all the commercial flights. When I hear stories of 24 year old civilian trained pilots flying commuter planes it terrifies me. That flight that crashed in Buffalo a while back had 2 children at the controls, neither of whom had ever flown in icing conditions. One made a comment over the comm that he'd never stalled an airfoil or recovered from a spin. I did that the FIRST WEEK of flight school. My experience has been that civilian schools teach their pilots how to fly the airplane. In the Navy we were taught how to fly the aircraft when EVERY frickin' thing imaginable goes wrong. It was exhausting.
|
|
|
Re: Keystone XL pipeline
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,702 Likes: 22
Monkey Butt
|
|
Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,702 Likes: 22 |
Some day we will have a major breakthrough with super conductors where they will function at room temperature. When that happens, solar will explode as the only way to go.
In the interim we need to exploit what we are good at. We are really good at oil, coal, and nuclear.
Lets get this pipeline run and stop playing games with EPA and election year stuff. That is all this is. It was blocked because its now 2012.
One thing that we can be very sure of. Canada is going to sell this oil. It does not have to be to us but they are gonna sell it.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
|
|
|
Re: Keystone XL pipeline
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
|
|
Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
If you follow current events at all I think it's up in the air as to whether or not we are "really good" at all those things.
|
|
|
Re: Keystone XL pipeline
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,531
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,531 |
 who needs the Arabs for an oil/energy shortage.....we are perfectly capable of doing that to our self , thank you very much.......and by the way, I need a job, Ime purfactly edukaded with a deegree n under water basket weaving !!!!!  (and I can drool in 5-different languages too)
|
|
|
Re: Keystone XL pipeline
|
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,720
Check Pants
|
|
Check Pants
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 5,720 |
We already have pipelines in the ground CONUS to encircle the planet 5 or 6 times, perhaps the naysayers should suggest we dig them all up and use tanker trucks? If I'm following their logic to conclusion?
|
|
|
|
|
