 Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Hi all, I've got an electrical problem and I've got no idea what to do. A month or so ago the Datatool Alarm I had on my bike decided to play up. This meant I had to disconnect it, chuck it to billyo and reconnect all the wiring back to stock. Well since that time I've had one battery go flat, replaced it thinking I might have drained it somehow but now the second one has drained down to 5 volts. The question is, how does a battery drain itself when everything electrical appears fine i.e. bike starts, lights work fine etc etc. Could it be I reconnected the wiring in such a way where it's causing the battery to go flat? If anyone can help me out here I'd appreciate it, particularly as I have a three day ride in two weeks and don't like the idea of being away when the electrical system isn't up to scratch. Thanks in advance to any electrical gurus out there.  stacka
Staintune Pipes, K&N Pods, 45 pilots, TBS needles and 145 mains.
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Sure, we only hear from you when there is a problem.  
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Hey Ian, how ya been. Still towing? As a matter of fact I haven't been on here much if at all for the last six months. I've had a few other issues to deal with but mainly my back finally got the better of me and I've had to give my job away as a firie. Been a bit up and down with it to be honest but I'm starting to come good now though. Anyway, It's not like you not to give a bloke a hand with a problem 
Last edited by Stacka; 12/23/2011 10:57 PM.
Staintune Pipes, K&N Pods, 45 pilots, TBS needles and 145 mains.
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Sorry to hear you haven't been well , hope things look up for you soon.
It's late here and had a hard day at work so don't really want to think about anything auto related. Just couldn't pass up a chance to pull your leg a little.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Joined: Mar 2009
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Stickman Yogi
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Stickman Yogi
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Good to hear from you Stacka, I've missed your thorough, thoughtful and often insightful posts around here. Firstly, sorry to hear you've been buggered up. But you implied you're on the mend so hopefully better times ahead! As for your bike, it's sounds like there is a short somewhere. Try pulling one of the battery connections and put a multi-meter between the battery terminal and the connection you took off. See if you get a voltage reading across there and if you do, you have a short somewhere. If you don't then we'll discuss plan 'B' (whatever that is  ).
Live to love, love to live.
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Just re-read your post and honestly I am not familiar enough with how that alarm is wired to be much help but my guess would be a short somewhere. I do know that I have heard of quite a few problems with that alarm.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Thanks heaps for your sentiments Keith. It means a lot mate. To be honest, I've missed being here too and just talking to you and all the other blokes, let alone riding and doing stuff to my bike.
Thanks also for giving me somewhere to go with working out why my battery is going flat. I'll do what you said and get back with an answer.
cheers buddy
stacka
Staintune Pipes, K&N Pods, 45 pilots, TBS needles and 145 mains.
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Thanks Ian. like Keith you think it may be a short somewhere. Also, your comment about the Datatool alarm is very true. I've lost count of how many riders have had problems with them. Mine lasted six years with no issues and then kaput. I now wished I hadn't bought the thing, particularly now I'm chasing a short somewhere. At least I have a direction to go thanks to you and Keith.
Staintune Pipes, K&N Pods, 45 pilots, TBS needles and 145 mains.
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Hey Ian, I missed your first post about you having a big day at work today. Thanks also mate. I'm coming good at long last and pretty sure all's going to turn out out fine as they usually do.
I'm going to miss my job as a firie most though. A bit of my identity is gone but now I have to regroup and move on to bigger and better things. Still waiting on an outcome regarding my pension etc but all the doctors have recommended I get looked after so should be good to go.
Staintune Pipes, K&N Pods, 45 pilots, TBS needles and 145 mains.
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Joined: Mar 2007
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Check Pants
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Check Pants
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Hey Stacka...
I used to be a car audio installer when I was younger. The possibility of the alarm draining your battery is a high possibility.
Since Ive never installed one I don't know exactly how the wiring is on that unit Id say bypass it and see what happens. There should be a fuse you can pull or maybe you can simply unplug the alarm brain. Now... doing that will most likely prevent you from starting the bike but it will at least allow you to see if theres still a drain with the alarm disconnected.
SOLD: 07 Black BA, 39mm FCRs, TPUSA stage 1 head, TPUSA 813 cams, TPUSA 10.8:1 pistons, TTP #3 igniter, Specialty Spares Long Cannons, Tsukayu Hard Bags. 82HP/55tq
NEW: 19 Goldwing Tour DCT
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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Stacka,
Man that's a lot of work to become a fireman and then have to give it up; must have really hurt you when the realization hit. That said, I,m hoping they'll get you all sorted out and the future's bright.
Meanwhile, can you disconnect the ground lead and insert a multi-meter probes in series to the frame, set the meter to amps, and see if you are draining current to ground? I'd start with a high setting and then click down until the meter gives a good reading. This would at least tell you if there's a short circuit.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Hi Zdenko, I had to disconnect the alarm mate and put all the wiring back as it was before I put in the alarm. So with advice from our resident techos on here, it's suggested I find out where a short is coming from. I can't get to my bike till after Christmas now but at least I may have a method to hopefully fix the problem. Thanks anyway 
Staintune Pipes, K&N Pods, 45 pilots, TBS needles and 145 mains.
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Hey Ed, how'd you be? Yes mate, it hasn't been all that flash having to give up my job. It's one of those careers of a lifetime and which I gained a lot of personal satisfaction. Unfortunately I've had this back problem which actually started when I was a soldier in the early 80's. Then of course being a firie didn't help matters, so I suppose it was inevitable even though I didn't know that. So yes, I now have to just focus on managing the chronic pain with pain Meds. Sounds pretty bad but it's mostly under control which is the main thing. Thanks for your tip too. Keith mentioned a similar method of determining how I might detect whether I've got a grounded wire so I'll try both yours and his suggestion and see what happens. Thanks again for your time. I'll report back after Christmas when I get time again.
Staintune Pipes, K&N Pods, 45 pilots, TBS needles and 145 mains.
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Joined: Apr 2007
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Hey Stacka,
Both suggestions from Keith and Ed will point to a draw on the battery with the key off. If you do see a draw, start pulling fuses until it disappears. You have just found the suspect circuit.
12 Rocket Roadster
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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Thanks, Greg, I left that most important piece of the diagnostic out. Key off, please, when you check for the current draw.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Thanks guys. You know, I still get a real kick when people from countries around the globe reply to my questions. This one about my battery going flat is a classic example cos I've got no idea about electrics. I just hope I can follow the instructions and in the end I can fix the sucker ha ha. I'm out into the garage now to see what happens.
Last edited by Stacka; 12/25/2011 6:18 PM.
Staintune Pipes, K&N Pods, 45 pilots, TBS needles and 145 mains.
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Ok,
I've taken the negative wire off the negative terminal of the battery, put one of multi meter's probes on the negative wire and the other on the negative terminal and it reads .43v
I then tried to get an amp reading but don't really know what I'm doing. I thought I needed to dial the multi meter to the A (amp) section, put one of the probes on the disconnected negative wire and the other on the frame.
Apologies for not having a clue but would it be possible to explain in more depth what I need to do?
Staintune Pipes, K&N Pods, 45 pilots, TBS needles and 145 mains.
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Joined: Aug 2009
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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You need to put one probe on the disconnected wire and the other on the battery terminal, so that the current runs through the meter. Dialling the meter to Amps is right though
I take it you got the .43v with the ignition off?
If so, did you check the battery voltage at the same time?
Last edited by brindle; 12/25/2011 7:54 PM.
Too old to die young, too ugly to leave a good looking corpse
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Joined: Apr 2007
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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If the key was shut off and all you got was half a volt testing between the neg terminal of the battery and the frame, then you don't appear to have a defect such as a short in the system unless your battery only has .43 volts capacity. Typically seeing a very low voltage is because a clock is running or something similar that requires very low current and runs all the time.
Before testing with an ammeter, you need to place the probes in the proper ports for amps on your meter. Select your highest amp setting (as Ed mentioned) on the meter and attach the leads between the negative terminal of the battery and the frame with key off. If you get nothing, lower the amp setting until you do. If you don't get anything, you don't have a draw. The next step would be to see if you have a defective battery. Typically fully charging the battery then letting it sit for a week would indicate if it was good.
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Ok guys, thanks for getting back to me so early. Hey isn't it Christmas over your way? Merry Christmas anyway and hope you have a nice lunch and a few sherbets.
I'm back into the garage and will get back shortly.
Staintune Pipes, K&N Pods, 45 pilots, TBS needles and 145 mains.
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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I forgot to mention the ignition was off and my battery is showing 12.7Volts which according to my C-Tek battery charger the battery is fully charged.
Staintune Pipes, K&N Pods, 45 pilots, TBS needles and 145 mains.
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Ok Gents, the only time I could get a current reading at all was when I did what the instructions said and plugged the RED test lead into the 10A jack in the multi meter. The instructions also mention this connection plug is used when the current is larger than 200mA. Whatever that means.
Then with the red test lead's probe touching the negative terminal and the black lead's probe touching the frame, the reading showed 17. What was not expected though was the negative probe sparking when I touched the frame and both leads getting seriously hot to the point they felt like they were going to melt.
Anyway, because I'm not sure of what is going on, I might see if the battery drops any voltage overnight. I just want to make sure again there is definitely a drain happening and provided there is, go to plan B. What was plan B again ha ha
It also may mean I have to take my bike to a mechanic this time cos electrics probs like this does my head in.
So I'll write a post tomorrow after I check the battery's voltage.
Thanks again for helping me out.
stacka
Staintune Pipes, K&N Pods, 45 pilots, TBS needles and 145 mains.
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Joined: Mar 2009
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Stickman Yogi
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Stickman Yogi
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Quote:
Ok Gents, the only time I could get a current reading at all was when I did what the instructions said and plugged the RED test lead into the 10A jack in the multi meter. The instructions also mention this connection plug is used when the current is larger than 200mA. Whatever that means.
Then with the red test lead's probe touching the negative terminal and the black lead's probe touching the frame, the reading showed 17. What was not expected though was the negative probe sparking when I touched the frame and both leads getting seriously hot to the point they felt like they were going to melt.
Anyway, because I'm not sure of what is going on, I might see if the battery drops any voltage overnight. I just want to make sure again there is definitely a drain happening and provided there is, go to plan B. What was plan B again ha ha
It also may mean I have to take my bike to a mechanic this time cos electrics probs like this does my head in.
So I'll write a post tomorrow after I check the battery's voltage.
Thanks again for helping me out.
stacka
Just to confirm, Stacka... this test was done with the key off, and the negative lead disconnected from the battery, right? If so you definitely have a short somewhere. The next step would be to find out which circuit the short is in. One by one, pull the fuses and each time you pull one, run the same test for each fuse. Eventually you will have pulled a fuse with a 0 reading on the meter. When that happens you will know which circuit the short is in.
Btw, mA = milliamps which is very low current. A clock running off the bike is an example of something that would draw a very small current from the battery. Anything running on mere milliamps would not cause the spark you spoke of.
Live to love, love to live.
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Check Pants
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Check Pants
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ALL of the above is correct however I want to make you aware of some things that may slip your mind when checking current draw... * If the alarm is tapped into another circuit (lets say aux power as an example). You can pull the fuse at the fuse box for that circuit and think you found the problem only to be mislead since the alarm is tapped into that circuit. * Also... if the alarm is tapped directly to the battery the same thing can happen and drive you batty. So... remove the fuse on that alarm first. There should be a fuse on the main alarm power wire. Check before and after. Do the same for aux lights or anything else non-Triumph you have added to your electrical system no matter how long its been there. * a small current draw is ok but at almost half an amp that might slightly raise an eyebrow from me unless I find something drawing more. If your battery has been flat even once it has suffered some minor damage. That minor damage and minor draw add up to a something. Electrical issue are a PITA (pain in the arse) so post your results with detail and well all throw our pennies at you till you find the issue... or by me a plane ticket and Ill come down and help ya out 
SOLD: 07 Black BA, 39mm FCRs, TPUSA stage 1 head, TPUSA 813 cams, TPUSA 10.8:1 pistons, TTP #3 igniter, Specialty Spares Long Cannons, Tsukayu Hard Bags. 82HP/55tq
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Stickman Yogi
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Stickman Yogi
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Yup, what Z said. He is so much more articulate at explaining things (well, you are, dude!). That and I didn't know the alarm had it's own fuse.
Live to love, love to live.
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Adjunct
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Adjunct
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Hi Stacka, Sorry to hear that your back has caused you to have to give the job away. A ampmeter is always connected in series I.e. one lead to the wire and the other to the postive side of the battery which registers the milli amps passing through the circuit- to connect the ampmeter to the frame or earth is not good form and can destroy the instrument. The volt meter on the other hand is connected in parallel i.e one lead to live and one to earth or frame. When checking for shorts with the ampmeter be aware that many do not have the fine readings required to pick up a very small draw and can throw you a curve ball. Take it carefully and write down what you have done with fuses etc until you get to the bottom of it. I am sure that some here will have dealt with the same issue if the alarm is the inherent cause of the fault. Cheers Kent
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Joined: Oct 2010
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Member
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Member
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Hey Stacka, good to see you back.
Test the voltage of your battery with the bike off, then test it with the bike running. The voltage should increase slightly with the bike running. This eliminates the rectifier and stator and means the battery should be charging OK. If the voltage doesn't increase means that one of these components are dodgey.
The ammeter (as Kent said earlier) needs to be connected in series with the load. This means that. You will need to remove on of the terminal connections and test between the terminal and the disconnected cable. The idea is to measure the current running through the cable to the terminal ( or the other way). Make sure that you have the meter set to amps DC!!! Any current flowing with the ignition off means that you have a short somewhere before the ignition switch.
Keep us in the loop! I am sure that you will eventually find the fault and that it will be something really simple!
Good luck
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Hi all, thanks for all your time in trying to help me sort this out. You've all got a lot of patience dealing with this Stacka bloke ha ha. Also thanks Kent and Terry, glad you're both still around here too. Ok, my ignition has always been off throughout this process. Also, the original offending alarm was thrown in the bin as soon as it played up, meaning all wiring has been reconnected without the alarm there to give me any further grief. I did misunderstand the instructions cos it was mentioned I should: Quote:
attach the leads between the negative terminal of the battery and the frame with key off.
So I simply attached the probe "between the negative terminal" and not the negative wire. My mistake.
I did try doing it the correct way originally though but not with much success.
Before we go any further with this little drama of mine, I want to mention how throughout today I've been testing the battery's voltage to see if there has been any significant drop from it's original 12.7 Volts. Well just before beddy byes (bed time) which was over eight hours from the original measurement, the voltage drop was only .01 volts difference, i.e. From 12.8v to 12.7v.
I don't want to get too excited but that amount doesn't sound like it's a lot to be concerned about really and wouldn't flatten the battery in a hurry I wouldn't have thought.
I also wanted to mention how I thought just perhaps it may have been my GPS which was drawing power, as I for the first time kept it connected via my handlebar attached BMW socket. It's only a long shot and I will have to do some more tests but who knows.
Anyway, first thing in the morning I'm going to check if there was any further power drain and go from there.
Cheers
stacka
Last edited by Stacka; 12/26/2011 8:24 AM.
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Joined: Apr 2007
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Kent, Hope you don't take offense to this but I want to clarify a couple of points for Stacka's sake. Quote:
A ampmeter is always connected in series I.e. one lead to the wire and the other to the postive side of the battery which registers the milli amps passing through the circuit- to connect the ampmeter to the frame or earth is not good form and can destroy the instrument.
Point of clarification. An ammeter should be hooked up in series as you stated but it makes no difference if you chose the negative or positive side of the battery. I suggested the negative side because there is less chance of sparking. Attaching the ammeter between the neg battery terminal and the negative wire or frame usually won't cause any safety problems. Your statement suggesting that it has to be the positive side could be misleading.
Quote:
The volt meter on the other hand is connected in parallel i.e one lead to live and one to earth or frame.
This is true (voltage drop across something) but you can also put a voltmeter in series to measure potential. If an ammeter isn't available, a voltmeter will tell you there is "potential" between, say a disconnected battery lead and the battery terminal it is supposed to be connected to. It just won't tell you by how much.
Quote:
When checking for shorts with the ampmeter be aware that many do not have the fine readings required to pick up a very small draw and can throw you a curve ball. Take it carefully and write down what you have done with fuses etc until you get to the bottom of it. I am sure that some here will have dealt with the same issue if the alarm is the inherent cause of the fault.
Cheers
Kent
True.
Stacka, you stated that your test leads were getting hot even with the key off. Just what were you touching? If you had the test lead on the negative terminal of the battery and then went to the frame or the negative wire (really doesn't matter) and you got sparking, then something is drawing a lot of current as Keith mentioned. If the 17 you registered on your meter was indeed 17 amps and not 17 milliamps, then I would imagine that a wire is grounded somewhere to the frame. I don't think there are any accessories that draw that much current. 17 milliamps on the other hand is nothing to worry about.
For safeties sake, make sure you clamp your test lead on the battery terminal first then go to the frame to keep any potential arcing away from the battery. I've seen a good number of batteries explode - not nice. Also, if you notice that there is sparking when you are hooking up the battery terminals to the battery, with the key off, then you really don't need an ammeter.
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Stickman Yogi
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Stickman Yogi
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Quote:
Also, if you notice that there is sparking when you are hooking up the battery terminals to the battery, with the key off, then you really don't need an ammeter.
There ya go, the simplest test yet.
Live to love, love to live.
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Adjunct
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Adjunct
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Hi Greg-a merry xmas to you and yours. Of course you are dead right-I tried to keep it as simple as possible for Stackas sake. Dealing with the vagaries of electrical systems when starting from scratch is not easy so hope I did not mislead you Stacka. The arcing and heat with the probes do indicate a major draw as you say. Whatever the problem is it would appear that it has to do with the reconnected wiring from the defunct alarm or a recently added device such as the hardwired GPS.
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Well Gentlemen, I've discovered where I believe the power was being drawn from. I have a cheap but effective GPS unit which I've got connected to a Powerlet Handlebar Outlet Since I haven't been using my bike for the last six months, I obviously must have forgotten I wired the outlet so it remains live but still, if I didn't have the GPS turned on, why would it be drawing power? That one's got me stumped but whatever, last night I disconnected the GPS to see if any power was drawn from the battery. Well As It turned out, the battery lost no juice at all. Then this morning I reconnected the GPS and even though it wasn't turned on, in 5 hours the battery's volt level dropped from 12.70 to 12.44 Volts which if I left it for a few days, it's not hard to see how flattened a new battery. So there you go. All the fuss for nothing. Regardless guys, I can't tell you all how much I appreciate your replies to my questions. I have really missed being part of this forum but touch wood, you'll be seeing more of me and my bike in the future.  stacka
Staintune Pipes, K&N Pods, 45 pilots, TBS needles and 145 mains.
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Stickman Yogi
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Stickman Yogi
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Quote:
I have really missed being part of this forum but touch wood, you'll be seeing more of me and my bike in the future.
stacka
That would be great!
Live to love, love to live.
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Check Pants
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Check Pants
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I use Garmin GPS units and I know for a fact (Ive owned four or five different units) ... if you wire them directly to battery or hot, they charge even when turned off. I have had mine wired through a relay that disconnects power when the key is off. I do the same for my accessory outlet and driving lights.
SOLD: 07 Black BA, 39mm FCRs, TPUSA stage 1 head, TPUSA 813 cams, TPUSA 10.8:1 pistons, TTP #3 igniter, Specialty Spares Long Cannons, Tsukayu Hard Bags. 82HP/55tq
NEW: 19 Goldwing Tour DCT
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,150
Oil Expert
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OP
Oil Expert
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,150 |
Thanks Keith.
Staintune Pipes, K&N Pods, 45 pilots, TBS needles and 145 mains.
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,150
Oil Expert
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OP
Oil Expert
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,150 |
Quote:
if you wire them directly to battery or hot, they charge even when turned off.
Is that a fact. When I get a chance I wouldn't mind finding out what's involved in putting a relay into my powerlet circuit. Just goes to show how important it is not to assume adding accessories into a circuit is simply doing this or that. Maybe I can learn from this little episode before I possibly do some real damage.
I would also love to get a Garmin GPS but they aren't cheap down our way. One day though.
Stacka
Last edited by Stacka; 12/27/2011 7:47 AM.
Staintune Pipes, K&N Pods, 45 pilots, TBS needles and 145 mains.
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,063 Likes: 8
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 3,063 Likes: 8 |
Glad to hear you found the problem without spending any $$s. Ride safe
12 Rocket Roadster
03 Bonneville America
69 BSA Firebird Scrambler
73 Yamaha TX 750
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,616
Check Pants
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Check Pants
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,616 |
Quote:
When I get a chance I wouldn't mind finding out what's involved in putting a relay into my powerlet circuit.
Here you go... Relay wiring
SOLD: 07 Black BA, 39mm FCRs, TPUSA stage 1 head, TPUSA 813 cams, TPUSA 10.8:1 pistons, TTP #3 igniter, Specialty Spares Long Cannons, Tsukayu Hard Bags. 82HP/55tq
NEW: 19 Goldwing Tour DCT
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Re: Battery Keeps Going Flat
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,150
Oil Expert
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OP
Oil Expert
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,150 |
Thanks Greg. To be honest this latest electrics saga wasn't a cheap exercise. First off the Datatool alarm decided it preferred to live in landfill instead of earning it's keep on my bike. It started with my wife ringing me and saying the alarm was going off and what should she do. I couldn't shut it up so off it came but by that time my new Lithium Sulphate battery was completely flat and ruined - Cost $280. I went and bought a lead acid for $130, put it in and charged it up but I wasn't aware of the GPS issue. I didn't put the battery on trickle charge for some reason so three weeks later, this battery's dead. Cost $130 - Total $410 and I was lucky I didn't stuff the last battery. One last thing, the $410 doesn't take into consideration the cost of the new lithium charger which is sitting in my cupboard gathering dust. Oh well, at least we were able to solve the issue without my stuffing any more batteries. Ha ha. Thanks Zdenko too for the relay instructions.
Last edited by Stacka; 12/28/2011 10:18 AM.
Staintune Pipes, K&N Pods, 45 pilots, TBS needles and 145 mains.
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