 Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
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Well, yeah, if you want to build something that won't succeed the govt. will help you do it.
But, in defense of your assertion, Toyota did build a new assembly plant in San Antonio 6 years ago.
For all the great difficulty (hyped by politicians and the media I'm sure), Hyundai, Mercedes, BMW, VW, and Subaru have all built factories in the US (as well as supplier factories) specifically to service the US market in the last 10 or so years. Apparently they were able to do it. Maybe we Americans just can't do it, the foreigners all can...
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Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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Might have a bit to do with it:
(From assorted legitimate news sources)
Pay packages at U.S. automakers don't stand out compared with those at other U.S. companies. The median 2006 compensation for CEOs at 50 of the largest U.S. companies was $17.8 million, according to a USA TODAY analysis of data from Salary.com's CompAnalyst Executive database. Packages included salary, bonus, perks and stock and options awards.
But U.S. executive pay outpaces that of Asian companies, including Asian automakers.
GM CEO Rick Wagoner earned $9.3 million in salary and bonus in 2006, nearly double what he earned in 2005
Chrysler's new CEO, Bob Nardelli, became a symbol of corporate excess when he left Home Depot early this year with a $210 million severance package. Ford's new CEO, Alan Mulally, got $27.8 million in salary and bonus in his first few months on the job, including an $18.5 million signing bonus.
Japanese companies are not required to break out salaries and bonuses for top executives. Instead, they lump them together. Last year, Toyota's top 37 executives earned a combined $21.6 million in salary and bonuses, according to filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission. U.K. firm Manifest Information Services, which analyzes proxy information, estimates Toyota's top executive, Hiroshi Okuda, earned $903,000 in 2006.
At Honda, the top 21 earned $11.1 million, combined, in salary and bonuses, SEC filings show.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
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Loquacious
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This is true in European companies as well. The top pay for Bosch, a private company, was $500,000. Now, granted he also had immense political power, and some very nice benefits, but nothing approaching $9 million, and Bosch is an extremely wealthy and successful company. Despite paying that pittance, they still have no problem attracting top talent, not only for CEO's but also for their Board of Directors and Governors, who are usually top performers at major banks and even other businesses. Schaeffler (FAG & INA Bearings) was different, it was a private company that existed solely for the enrichment of Frau Schäffler, and it showed in how the company was run (not at all philanthropic like Bosch), as well as in the morale of the employees even though both companies had a very strong heritage and reputation that the employees could be proud of. I won't say that there wasn't nepotism at Bosch, but overall a much more effectively run company, with much stronger performance and even an espirit d'corps due to the way the company was run (pay levels were similar between the 2, but benefits were somewhat better since Bosch offered (and still does) a pension on top of the 401k, and better health insurance).
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Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Oil Expert
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I have decided to buy a new vehicle. An actual NEW one which I rarely do. One requirement is that it must be made in the US, so American labor will be necessary. Now, I don't give a rat's hind end what multinational corporation puts its name on it. Naturally, I have found in my research that many 'foreign' cars are manufactured in the US and many 'American' cars are not. Also, contrary to popular belief, many 'foreign' contain more parts originating in the US than many 'American' cars.
I was also reading where Honda will be increasing US production by 40% in the near future. Industry insiders claim that, with current exchange rates, it is impossible for Honda to generate a profit on an auto manufactured in Japan and sold in the US.
Sweet.
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Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
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Smokey, as I have mentioned before, sadly it was Ford, GM or Chrysler that most often forced our hand in moving production from the US to Mexico when I was at Bosch, while it was the foreign companies (Toyota, Subaru and Nissan at that time) that were actually willing to pay a slightly higher price to KEEP us in South Carolina. Unfortunately, as I have seen over and over the bean counters and sales folk will sell us out from behind and basically force the manufacturing floor to become a filter for the much higher defect rates from Mexico, India or China. I've also seen numerous times where Ford would hold domestically produced product to much higher standards, then relax numerous tolerances when the product was transferred to Mexico for instance. Never mind that we could have matched the price difference with similarly reduced tolerances. And while Ford would push us for 1ppm (part per million) defect rates, they would tolerate 300ppm or so from a low cost country supplier for a 5 cent/part price cut, and figure that we would filter it for them while still complaining that our prices needed to come down. In one product we transferred, our sales group promised a 10-15% price cut to Ford in exchange for all the business for the F150, Explorer and Excursions (we had only the F150 at that point). So, we packed up our production to Mexico (well, we scrapped our entire production line in SC, and they bought all new equipment in Mexico and put an electronic sensor product in steel stamping plant that made drum and disc brakes, ended up only realizing a 3% cost reduction, but to sweeten the deal, Ford renegged on the increased volumes before that point but past the point where we could turn back. GM did the same thing years prior,where they promised a price for a high volume relay, waited until we had the production equipment on the floor then turned around and said we'll give you 98 cents/each, take it or leave it, so we ended up going from making 4 cents/each on a part we made thousands of every day (ever 2 seconds) to losing 5 cents each (a political decision by our local managers). Yeah, sign me up for an American made car any day.
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Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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My brothers Toyota was built right here in Texas. One of the reason he got it.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
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The US government at one time was funded entirely by tariffs imposed on imports. I say bring them back. Reagan, Bush, and (especially) Clinton truly screwed us with these so called 'free trade agreements'. As long as Wal Mart, etc., is going to import crap made in sweat shops instead of buying it from American manufacturers we should tariff the hell out of them.
I need 4WD and I'm at a point in life where I can sell my Ford truck to my son so he can wear it out, so I'm looking at a Subaru Outback made in Lafayette, Indiana.
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Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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I agree Smokey those free trade agreements have been a mess.
NAFTA, CAFTA, The only free trade agreement I would have is with Canada, and Australia.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
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Joined: Dec 2006
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New Tires
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New Tires
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Quote:
Smokey, as I have mentioned before, sadly it was Ford, GM or Chrysler that most often forced our hand in moving production from the US to Mexico when I was at Bosch, while it was the foreign companies (Toyota, Subaru and Nissan at that time) that were actually willing to pay a slightly higher price to KEEP us in South Carolina. Unfortunately, as I have seen over and over the bean counters and sales folk will sell us out from behind and basically force the manufacturing floor to become a filter for the much higher defect rates from Mexico, India or China. I've also seen numerous times where Ford would hold domestically produced product to much higher standards, then relax numerous tolerances when the product was transferred to Mexico for instance. Never mind that we could have matched the price difference with similarly reduced tolerances. And while Ford would push us for 1ppm (part per million) defect rates, they would tolerate 300ppm or so from a low cost country supplier for a 5 cent/part price cut, and figure that we would filter it for them while still complaining that our prices needed to come down. In one product we transferred, our sales group promised a 10-15% price cut to Ford in exchange for all the business for the F150, Explorer and Excursions (we had only the F150 at that point). So, we packed up our production to Mexico (well, we scrapped our entire production line in SC, and they bought all new equipment in Mexico and put an electronic sensor product in steel stamping plant that made drum and disc brakes, ended up only realizing a 3% cost reduction, but to sweeten the deal, Ford renegged on the increased volumes before that point but past the point where we could turn back. GM did the same thing years prior,where they promised a price for a high volume relay, waited until we had the production equipment on the floor then turned around and said we'll give you 98 cents/each, take it or leave it, so we ended up going from making 4 cents/each on a part we made thousands of every day (ever 2 seconds) to losing 5 cents each (a political decision by our local managers). Yeah, sign me up for an American made car any day.
So what you have told us is that the market place is a rough and tumble place, yes it is. Theoretically, we could blame consumers for Bosch's move to Mexico since consumers reneged on paying MSRP for the Ford or GM vehicles. 
Running a plant at a per unit loss is not a political decision, it's economic one. Most manufactures will continue to produce at a loss to cover fixed cost.
Last edited by MACMC; 01/02/2012 2:12 PM.
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Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
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Loquacious
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So what you have told us is that the market place is a rough and tumble place, yes it is. Theoretically, we could blame consumers for Bosch's move to Mexico since consumers reneged on paying MSRP for the Ford or GM vehicles.
Running a plant at a per unit loss is not a political decision, it's economic one. Most manufactures will continue to produce at a loss to cover fixed cost.
You'll forgive me if I don't find a lack of basic ethics in business or the possible unemployment of Americans due to this kind of BS humorous. Thankfully, Bosch was a strong enough company that we didn't lose anybody and positions were found elsewhere at that location. And no, I wouldn't blame the consumers for Juan Ignacio Lopez, probably the biggest dirtbag (purchasing manager at GM)to come along in quite some time. Yes, the auto industry is a rough place, at least with regard to the Big 3, where scruples seem sadly lacking, along with ethics, but Lopez was the créme de la créme of unethical and burned numerous suppliers in such a fashion. His other favorite trick was to get one company to do all of the upfront engineering work on a project, then take the whole project, along with the engineering work and hand it off to another company who could of course make the product MUCH cheaper since someone else had spent a ton of money working out the design issues for them while getting nothing in return. Sorry Mac, if you find that humorous, or think that is the way American companies should run, then I'd hate to live in this country if that were the norm. Thankfully, that is not the case, even in the rough and tumble automotive world. One other little tidbit, while you are seeing your costs go up each model year for a car, the suppliers are being forced to give up 5% a year in price reductions regardless of market conditions.
Oh, and no, the relay decision at Bosch was purely a political decision to help capture more lucrative business. It was quite refreshing after we got that business that we basically told GM we were shutting the line down, taking no more losses and that they could, as politely as possible be said, go F themselves if they didn't like it. I quite enjoyed being in on that teleconference.
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Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
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Joined: Dec 2006
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New Tires
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New Tires
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Quote:
So what you have told us is that the market place is a rough and tumble place, yes it is. Theoretically, we could blame consumers for Bosch's move to Mexico since consumers reneged on paying MSRP for the Ford or GM vehicles.
Running a plant at a per unit loss is not a political decision, it's economic one. Most manufactures will continue to produce at a loss to cover fixed cost.
You'll forgive me if I don't find a lack of basic ethics in business or the possible unemployment of Americans due to this kind of BS humorous. Thankfully, Bosch was a strong enough company that we didn't lose anybody and positions were found elsewhere at that location. And no, I wouldn't blame the consumers for Juan Ignacio Lopez, probably the biggest dirtbag (purchasing manager at GM)to come along in quite some time. Yes, the auto industry is a rough place, at least with regard to the Big 3, where scruples seem sadly lacking, along with ethics, but Lopez was the créme de la créme of unethical and burned numerous suppliers in such a fashion. His other favorite trick was to get one company to do all of the upfront engineering work on a project, then take the whole project, along with the engineering work and hand it off to another company who could of course make the product MUCH cheaper since someone else had spent a ton of money working out the design issues for them while getting nothing in return. Sorry Mac, if you find that humorous, or think that is the way American companies should run, then I'd hate to live in this country if that were the norm. Thankfully, that is not the case, even in the rough and tumble automotive world. One other little tidbit, while you are seeing your costs go up each model year for a car, the suppliers are being forced to give up 5% a year in price reductions regardless of market conditions.
Oh, and no, the relay decision at Bosch was purely a political decision to help capture more lucrative business. It was quite refreshing after we got that business that we basically told GM we were shutting the line down, taking no more losses and that they could, as politely as possible be said, go F themselves if they didn't like it. I quite enjoyed being in on that teleconference.
I find humor in every thing and I'm sure Bosch never disappointed or cost a supplier money. Also, one of the reasons you operate a plant at a loss, besides covering fixed cost, is to maintain your work force, both a selfish and altruist reason.
Thanks for giving me another reason for being a Ford guy.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
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Also, one of the reasons you operate a plant at a loss, besides covering fixed cost, is to maintain your work force, both a selfish and altruist reason.
Thanks for giving me another reason for being a Ford guy.
I loved working at Bosch, hell of a company. Not perfect by any stretch, but as a guy on the manufacturing floor (16 years so far) in Engineering, and with extensive experience working with international suppliers, I can guarantee you that most of our suppliers were very thankful to have us between them and Ford, especially when we couldn't protect them any more and they had to deal directly with them, as happened in a couple quality spills. If you work in manufacturing, if you find a good supplier you work with them, you help them, and you protect them from d-head customers like Ford at all costs, because in some things good suppliers are hard to come by.
I always try to find something to laugh at in life, but sometimes I find it difficult when I see what companies like Ford have done to manufacturing in the US, for all of their patriotic "Made in America" crap. I was a Ford fan from my first '73 F100 (240 straight six, 3 speed on the column, midnight blue metallic) until the time when I started working at Bosch and actually began supplying them parts. There were some good folks there, but the way they ran suppliers out of the country (or out of business), and the way they treated suppliers compared to the Japanese made me an anti-Ford guy pretty quickly. This lesson was repeated in 2006 when I went to Barden Bearings in CT, and ran the program to supply ball bearings for the Serial Turbocharger on the Scorpion Turbodiesel being put into the 2008 and later F250/F350. What a bunch of idiots they were, and the way they ran their program management and contracts, had it not been for having the financial backing of Schäffler Group, FAG and INA behind us, they probably would have put Barden out of business after 70 years. Thankfully, they were able to weather the launch with Ford and Honeywell, but from what I hear, things haven't improved. As I was leaving, Ford was pushing us to almost double capacity, so millions in new Grinding machines, honers and assembly capacity was ordered, employees hired and trained, and now most of it is sitting idle because they can't get their shiite together. I admit, I love the look of the new F150, and the new Focus, extremely sharp car, but when I see them abandoning the US market for the Ranger, and other things, thanks but no thanks. I'll stick with companies that try to create or retain jobs in the US, even if they are Japanese, Korean or German. I could give a rats a$$ if I'm not sending my profits to the clowns on Wall St, or into the pockets of Detroit CEO's.
Last edited by Bayern710; 01/03/2012 1:41 AM.
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Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
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As I said a while back, I want my dollars to work their way to worker on an assembly line in the US. I could give a rat's rear end what multinational corporation prints the name plate. Greg, have you had any interactions with Subaru over the years?
There are some folks that will never see my money. Wal Mart immediately comes to mind.
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Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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That is my sentiment with where are the workers getting paid and who does it really benefit. Then again if we are building cars for Japan we really should have no problem with Mexico building ours. 
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
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I agree Smokey those free trade agreements have been a mess.
NAFTA, CAFTA, The only free trade agreement I would have is with Canada, and Australia.
Chad, just curious, but why not with the UK aswell?
It'd stop your Triumph parts getting even more expensive
That is assuming the EU would allow a UK-USA only FTA
Too old to die young, too ugly to leave a good looking corpse
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Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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The EU is the only reason. In order to do that we would have to have a free trade agreement with the whole EU. We have to with Canada, it only stands to reason they are our northern border, and require nothing from us. Any thing we do with them should be mutualy beneficial. Australia while not being one of our borders provide for us a huge national defence position in the south pacific, but also require nothing from us. The UK would be an excellent candidate as well for many good reasons. However you guys are tied the the EU. I on that subject cannot speak in open forum. If you would like to know more then pm me.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
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Like I said Chad, just curious However, going by your reply, I think we are of a similar opinion of the EU  (and thats as far as I dare go here  )
Too old to die young, too ugly to leave a good looking corpse
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Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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Right on, we are on the same page. The UN as well.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
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Greg, have you had any interactions with Subaru over the years?
Yes, I used to supply ABS and Traction Control ECU's to them. Only problem I had with them was that rather than use our relays like everyone else, they had us use Matsushita relays, because they own Matsushita. Fair enough. EXCEPT that we used a process called resistance welding to weld in the relays to the other electronic circuitry. The Matsushita relays had a nickel coating over a copper alloy lead, and that is GREAT for soldering, but absolutely HORRIBLE for resistance welding. Resistance welding uses the internal resistance of 2 parts to create heat to melt the 2 pieces together when current is passed through them (about 2000Amps in our case). Well, the nickel provides good resistance but is also hard to penetrate, and with a semi-soft copper base underneath (which also wicks away the heat!!!), you can imagine the results. Just about the time you penetrate the nickel, you blow out the molten copper. What a time we had with those things! Made it work, but it weren't easy!(as they say)
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Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
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Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
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well, they just announced that we're going to deliver 100 units to UPS for a fleet of all electric delivery vans. More good news... UPS was always pretty good with experimenting with new ideas. Seems I remember them introducing the CVCC system WAY back when Honda still had CVCC on their engines when I had my Civic S in '83...
Last edited by Bayern710; 01/04/2012 2:33 PM.
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