 Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,068 Likes: 1
Saddle Sore
|
Saddle Sore
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 5,068 Likes: 1 |
Quote:
Collard greens
Now Moe , this thread is about goin' GREEN , now it looks to me like ole Homer there's been into somethin' sorta BLUE and maybe that's why it's disagreein' with him. 
Man , and I always thought it was those Calizonian types that were anticollardites. 
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 11,126 Likes: 13
Should be Riding
|
|
Should be Riding
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 11,126 Likes: 13 |
Quote:
Quote:
Collard greens
Now Moe , this thread is about goin' GREEN , now it looks to me like ole Homer there's been into somethin' sorta BLUE and maybe that's why it's disagreein' with him.
Man , and I always thought it was those Calizonian types that were anticollardites.
Don't ride through Springfield too much eh? That is Homer's Pavlovic response.
I LOVE Collard Greens! And Mustard greens, Kale, etc... 
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964
Stickman Yogi
|
|
OP
Stickman Yogi
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964 |
Quote:
Quote:
And I'll say it again... Tesla. I mean he ran a '31 Pierce Arrow with an electric motor powered not by batteries, not by diesel generators, not by combustion or stored energy of any kind but rather by instantly available energy in the form of electromagnetic waves available anywhere. I mean he tore up the highway at 90 MPH in that rather heavy luxury car at the time. So the real answer lies I feel, in suppressed technologies already figured out long ago. No mainstream idea out there even comes close to what Telsa was doing in the early 1900s.
I have no idea what you guys are talking about. I guess this is an ongoing joke I am late to. There is no 90mph electric car in the 30s with or without batteries. 
A couple of links pertaining to Tesla.
http://www.keelynet.com/energy/teslafe1.htm
http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/new/tesla.htm
Ron, I'm wondering how you discovered Tesla didn't run an electric car in the 30s? Of course pretty much all information on Telsa is gone or obscured to the point where it's only bits and pieces not easily threaded. I remember in the late '80s a movie starring Orson Wells called "The Secret Life of Nikola Tesla" was circulating around in a hush, hush sort of a way. There was a VCR copy of it changing hands around here where entire private audiences would be invited to someone's home to view this 'underground' movie. Now it's available on Youtube I believe. Anyway, accurate and compete information concerning Telsa and his inventions and experiments is hard to find, but from what I've been able to gather, he really did make that electric Pierce Arrow work.
Live to love, love to live.
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954 |
Quote:
I have no idea what you guys are talking about. I guess this is an ongoing joke I am late to. There is no 90mph electric car in the 30s with or without batteries.
You sir, are incorrect. Doing a little research, there were actually a few electrics that set speed records into the 120-130mph range well BEFORE the 1930's. A Belgian electric ran at 68mph in 1899, and in 1906, a re-engined (or motored I guess) Stanley Steamer electric ran at 127mph! On batteries, at a time when gasoline cars were achieving whopping speeds in the low 20's and 30's. After President McKinley was shot, he was taken to the hospital in an all-electric ambulance. Neither he, nor the ambulance company survived the year though! Around 1914, over 9,000 electric cars were sold by only 2 car companies, and Henry Ford owned one, a Detroit Model 47, which he never sold. And Detroit Electric, which collaborated with Edison, built 15,000 cars and over 500 trucks in it's 34 years at a time when electricity itself was as new a concept as cars were. Funny, Hiram Maxim (son of the guy who invented the Maxim machine gun) was told by his boss (after designing a gas powered motorcycle) that no one would ride atop an explosion (internal combustion).... Hmmmm....
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1
Second Wind
|
|
Second Wind
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1 |
I love this site so much info and guy willing to do the research.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,694 Likes: 22
Monkey Butt
|
|
Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,694 Likes: 22 |
The Stanley Steamer was a steamer it held the 1 mile record. (Steam) not electric. The re-engineering was moving the boiler to the front. Tesla patented everything he did. He did not have an electric car. Sorry, I can't prove a negative. He didn't make one. If he tried it didn't work. If anybody wants to think a guy in the 30 made a 80HP electric motor (which is possible) bought some tubes wires and rods tuned it into the normal current in the air and made literally a perpetual motion machine better than atomic power. That is fine. Cept is didn't happen.  There was nothing secret about this guy. He did fabulous things in the area of AC and radio along with remote control. He would have patented that in (since he lived there) a New York Second.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62
Fe Butt
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62 |
They made some extremely powerful electric trucks in the 1920s. There are 2 examples in the Boyertown Museum of Historic Vehicles a little over an hr. drive from me. They saw long service lasting decades. I am talking trucks designed to haul 20 tons and more.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954 |
Quote:
The Stanley Steamer was a steamer it held the 1 mile record. (Steam) not electric. The re-engineering was moving the boiler to the front.
Ron, I concede, you are correct with the regard to the Stanley, I misread that section. However, Baker Car, which still holds the record for most electric vehicles ever built, did have an electric torpedo bodied car capable of 130mph. During the speed run attempt, he achieved 1 mile in 36 seconds, making him the first man to break the Ton in a car, of any type. And this was with a 14 horse electric motor and Edison batteries, so it is entirely conceivable of a high speed electric car, in fact speed and torque have never been an issue with electrics, their sole problem has been range. As for the wireless transmission of electricity, a Tesla coil does transmit electricity quite well. Tesla patented this idea in 1902. As for it not taking off commercially, that is entirely understandable, if such a vehicle did exist. Especially given the lack of understanding of science and electricity back then (let alone now), how many people are going to line up to buy a car that runs by having it's body struck by what appears to be lightning bolts or invisible energy beams back then, no matter how safe they are told it is. Shoot, people are convinced that microwave energy in the microwatt range from cell phones is dangerous, Tesla coils can operate in the Megawatt range.
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964
Stickman Yogi
|
|
OP
Stickman Yogi
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964 |
Quote:
Cept is didn't happen.
Now Ron, keep an open mind.
Live to love, love to live.
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,694 Likes: 22
Monkey Butt
|
|
Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,694 Likes: 22 |
I am keeping an open mind. The library has fiction and non-fiction. Both folks in the building have an open mind. Greg, nobody has ever to this day made a Tesla coil that I have ever heard of capable of using the earths natural current to move objects. And now! they don't need vacuum tubes lol. They make great gizmos for lighting etc. The best example of Tesla is his greatest claim to fame. AC vs. DC. It is fun to think about the evil capitalist that bury free unlimited energy. Like the Pew family buying all the research on super conductors in the 80s. After all they were the primary stock holders in Sun Oil Co. They sold oil and gas!
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954 |
Quote:
Greg, nobody has ever to this day made a Tesla coil that I have ever heard of capable of using the earths natural current to move objects. And now! they don't need vacuum tubes lol. They make great gizmos for lighting etc.
Think we're on different wavelengths here Ron, or I misunderstood the original post about Tesla. I'm talking about Teslas work with trying to use giant Tesla transmitters and receivers to send power across great distances. I realize he was also working on ways to utilize the Earths own magnetic field (not sure why that seems like such a far fetched idea, perhaps you are more in tune with electronics and magnetism than I). But I believe one of his concepts was to basically transmit power waves the same way that we transmit radio waves, except that you would have an end user with a Receptor to convert that power back into energy to drive motors, lights, etc... IF I'm not completely mistaken that is how Microwaves were stumbled upon, which does exactly that, transmits power which creates heat when it strikes an object such as food. Further, that is basically the premise behind directed energy weapons which we are working on, and which I believe have been proven to be entirely feasible, not just sci-fi. Maybe not ready for primte time, but certainly within the scope of reality and not too distant technology. Think the biggest problem with that whole concept isn't whether or not it could be done, but the health effects of being exposed to the EM Radiation, the impact on communications systems, electrical appliances, and so on.
I might add, with regard to open minded-ness, sci fi and so on, in the 1960's a television show aired in which there were men in space, who had handheld devices which could be used to communicate over great distances simply by flipping the "communicator" open, and where anti-matter was used as a propulsion source, and where science officers could read books and documents on an electronic tablet, or seek information. All pie in the sky sci-fi! Well, since then, we've fielded numerous manned space missions, are planning a trip to Mars, have proven that anti-matter is real, and I have long ago traded my flip phone for a handheld PC that can seek information from any source on the globe via the internet. I can also get a tablet which will not only allow me to read any book posted electronically, but watch full length movies, scan documents, and so on. The sci fi that you grew up on is slowly materializing. Oh, didn't even mention robots that are so small that they are almost invisible to the naked eye, and are built under microscopes, and which can be put into your body to fight things like cancer....
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,694 Likes: 22
Monkey Butt
|
|
Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,694 Likes: 22 |
I agree with every word you just said.
It started with the 80 MPH car that went for 400 miles generating its own electricity via some tubes, wires, rods and a Tesla coil on his front seat with him. All with material available at the store in the 30s. I have a problem with that. Its fun to think about but I don't think he ever built such a device. That could not be squashed, he would be driving it around. We would have that technology today.
I have always believed that generating an attraction to gravitational or magnetic fields is possible. Especially for space flight. Direct an opposing magnetic field at earth and a positive field at mars. Push away from earth from one side of your ship and pull toward the target with the other.
Yep, sci-fi is now reality. Think of the principle in Dune like folding space and time as physical properties to travel instantly across large distance. Cool stuff.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954 |
well, as said, I suspect that the biggest reason is purely health and safety, especially back then. Beaming power around probably resonated like something from War of the Worlds, a particle beam that would kill you rather than make your car go. But, I wouldn't put anything past Tesla. Unless someone unearths proof, I guess we'll never know. Of course there is one other theory, that if he did do something like that, he destroyed evidence before his death to prevent it from falling into the hands of Edison or his successors. He was a bit eccentric if I recall correctly.
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964
Stickman Yogi
|
|
OP
Stickman Yogi
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964 |
I don't know (and it's true... I really don't know) but I suspect much of what Tesla had going was not destroyed but removed from the public eye. If he did make the Pierce Arrow work from EM energy, the oil companies would have to shut it down for obvious reasons. I still think there's enough evidence out there to substantiate the electric car story (I'll keep digging). There are other examples out there of technologies that worked very well, yet never came to fruition. Dr. Royal Rife's 'Rife Machine' was capable of treating tons of ailments, but Big Pharma shut that thing down in a hurry because it threatened their emerging industry. We live in a greed-based world where money takes precedence over practicability (no newsflash there). It's no stretch for me at least, to believe many great ideas have been squelch over money.
Live to love, love to live.
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62
Fe Butt
|
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62 |
On the Canadian side of the horseshoe falls just below the falls is an old closed power plant that was Teslas. I would love to see inside that place.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
|
|
New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
Quote:
So many myths...
Chevy Volt Costing Taxpayers Up to $250K Per Vehicle.
http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.c...tm_medium=email
Last edited by MACMC; 12/21/2011 8:59 PM.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954 |
Quote:
Quote:
So many myths...
Chevy Volt Costing Taxpayers Up to $250K Per Vehicle.
http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.c...tm_medium=email
No offense, but that is a cockamamie analysis if I've ever seen one. That per unit cost is based on the current 6,000 cars already sold, which would mean that to be true, they would have to cease selling them RIGHT now, since with each additional vehicle sold that unit cost drops. Further, that assumes that these companies put that money into a special bucket strictly for the Volt and nothing else. I've never yet seen a company (in the auto sector at least) that does that. They ALWAYS bleed off funds for other projects, especially capital equipment projects that had previously been in need of funding when it was short. FURTHER, the portions of that money that ARE used for projects such as the Volt will be used by suppliers like the battery supplier, Compact Power, for other projects. Do you think they are going to use the technology developed solely for one car? No, they will use it across whatever platforms they supply batteries to, so technically for this study, you have to include those vehicles as well. And lastly, besides the fact that McMillin is an idiot who can't understand basic accounting, I will ask again, name me ONE major new infrastructure related technology that became marketable WITHOUT gov't subsidies. Suddenly though, it's an issue, when it wasn't during the building of the rail system in the 1800's, the electrical and telephone grids, oil and natural gas production, nuclear power, the internet, materials technologies like alloys, plastics, satellite systems and communications, need I go on?
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
|
|
New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
First of all, it's not an accounting analysis, it's an economic one. For the most part what you say is correct in the long run if the market proves viable in the midterm, but that's a pretty big if. You can radically drop the unit cost of any widget by increasing production or spreading fixed cost over several different types of widgets, but if no one wants them you are screwed. I have no doubt that most of the industries you mentioned were subsidized in their infancy, the problem is that most of them still are.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954 |
I would agree with you that there are too many established industries that still get gov't subsidies for one reason or another LONG after they've become viable and profitable. If a company has crossed that threshold of profitability and can stand on it's own two feet then subsidies after that point are purely political in nature in most cases.
As for the long-term viability of electric cars, I will point out that there is only ONE thing standing between them and full viability and market growth, and that is range, due to their energy storage system (battery for now, who knows in 5 years). Overcome that single hurdle, and they become a much smarter choice than ICE's, due to size, power to weight ratios, simplicity, lack of maintenance (how often do most of us do any maintenance on an electric motor around the house, and when you do, how does a motor rebuild compare in effort level and complexity to an overhaul on a V6 or V8?). Couple those benefits with an energy storage system that has rapid recharge capabilities and can offer a 3-400 mile range, and EV's quickly become a better option. No more hauling gasoline to gas stations all over creation, since there isn't a place in the country for the most part that isn't on the grid. Generation would have to be beefed up, but that is already a necessity due to population increases and the simple age of the infrastructure, but that seems to be an issue no one wants to tackle, mainly because of cost, but no one disagrees that our power distribution grid and many parts of our generation grid are desperately in need of upgrading and increased capacity.
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62
Fe Butt
|
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62 |
I think 300 to 400 miles still is too short for many. I would want something (as would many others) that can tow a 28' trailer from PA to FL straight through with cargo in the back of the vehicle. For a local commuter maybe but I don't see it in the near future for anything more. I did post about the heavy trucks they made back in the 1920s so I could see an electric truck application in city limits too. Those trucks I posted about still work too.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
|
|
Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
Quote:
Quote:
So many myths...
Chevy Volt Costing Taxpayers Up to $250K Per Vehicle.
http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.c...tm_medium=email
The Chevy Vega would probably generate similar numbers if the production count was kept low enough.
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1
Second Wind
|
|
Second Wind
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1 |
I don't know why any automobile should be costing tax payers anything.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
|
|
Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
There aren't many tech products on the market that aren't utilizing government funded research in one way or another. If it's got a transistor, silicon chip, or a battery it traces back to government funded research.
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62
Fe Butt
|
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62 |
That funding to a for profit corporation should be in the form of an interest free or low interest loan to be paid back once the tech is profitable. To encourage development and making it worth it to take that risk on new tech, if said tech does not become profitable then the "loan" would not have to be repaid.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954 |
Quote:
I think 300 to 400 miles still is too short for many. I would want something (as would many others) that can tow a 28' trailer from PA to FL straight through with cargo in the back of the vehicle. For a local commuter maybe but I don't see it in the near future for anything more. I did post about the heavy trucks they made back in the 1920s so I could see an electric truck application in city limits too. Those trucks I posted about still work too.
Can you name me one vehicle today, commercially available and in use, that can go 1100 miles (Philly to Miami) in one shot while hauling a load? Other than a diesel locomotive that hauls about 2-3000 gallons of fuel, I know there is no passenger car or pickup truck that can come close, so you are now wanting the electric to do double what any known vehicle can do with technology that has been around 100 years? Perhaps an OTR Truck, if it has 250 gallon or larger tanks and gets better than 4-5 mpg, for a cost of about $800 in fuel. But I don't see anyone really talking about electrifying OTR trucks either. IF we talk about increasing efficiency of shipping loads cross-country, thent that typically involves moving to rail, and if we greatly restored our rail network to what it was in the early part of the 1900's, that would be a huge boon. But for apples to apples passenger cars, it's hardly a fair request. Shoot, most passenger cars have to stop at 400 miles to fill up, unless you've got a VW TDI that can go around 700. Even my car, that gets 33 on the interstate at 70-75 has to stop at around 500. That's 7 hours of straight drive time, which is a lot more than the vast majority of Americans would ever drive between stops. I've driven from Connecticut to 19 miles shy of the Georgia line in one shot (minus gas, coffee and piss, no other stops), but I'm not the average. And if they can get the recharge time down to say 5 minutes, then that's the same time it would take to fully tank a 16 gallon tank on most passenger cars.
Besides, that's the whole point, replace local commuters and family cars, that's the vast majority of vehicles on the road today besides OTR haulers.
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62
Fe Butt
|
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62 |
My Chevy Suburban just did it last fall towing a 28' camper with our gear in the back. We stopped for gas only and that was about a 5 minute stop then back on the road. From here to Orlando in 21 hrs. What electric vehicle will do that. Did Cody Wyoming same set up in just over 36 hrs. What electric vehicle will do that in the near future? With an electric vehicle you would have to make extended stops and not be able to haul that much cargo.Right now electric transportation is a pipe dream and a worse polluter than ice is. Plus they will add a load on an already over loaded grid if any substantial number are being charged at the same time.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954 |
Quote:
That funding to a for profit corporation should be in the form of an interest free or low interest loan to be paid back once the tech is profitable. To encourage development and making it worth it to take that risk on new tech, if said tech does not become profitable then the "loan" would not have to be repaid.
Think that would be an excellent concept, or perhaps as is the case with our company, combine a grant or low/zero-interest loan with a requirement for matching private investment, coupled with clear financial oversight to ensure nothing like Solyndra happens (or should happen). Sometimes new technologies, especially ones which require infrastructure improvements or changes, are just TOO capital intensive for ANY company to tackle, no matter how promising the reward. Shoot, the Transcontiental Railroad held out INCREDIBLE promises in sped up transportation, reduced transport costs, efficiency, safety, etc..., but would never have happened if the US Gov't had not paid by the mile for the UP and others to survey and lay track across the US, because it was simply too costly for a handful of companies to finance, even with private investment.
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954 |
SO, you DID stop for gas? How many times? Did you start with a full tank, then stop and refuel? Assuming a 30 gallon tank, and 989 miles (Philly-Orlando), that works out to an impressive 16mpg if you started with a full tank, and refueled once. But, that is not the same thing as doing that trip on ONE tank, which was the original statement if I read right, and would then require you to get 32mpg (or for you to have dual tanks and about 60 gallons)
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62
Fe Butt
|
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62 |
I agree that the amount of capitol needed to develop a new technology and risk are huge. That is why I believe federal funding is needed but I don't feel it should be a gift if money is then to be made from it. I also feel ,as I believe you eluded to, that once profitable funding should stop. All the tax payers will not get dividends from the profits so that money should be in the form of a conditional loan. loan
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954 |
Quote:
I agree that the amount of capitol needed to develop a new technology and risk are huge. That is why I believe federal funding is needed but I don't feel it should be a gift if money is then to be made from it. I also feel ,as I believe you eluded to, that once profitable funding should stop. All the tax payers will not get dividends from the profits so that money should be in the form of a conditional loan. loan
You are correct Ian with what I was saying.
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62
Fe Butt
|
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62 |
I stopped more than once and have a 60 gallon capacity but I only stopped long enough to pump gas, I didn't have to wait to charge my battery too. I do think a hybrid with a std. size battery used to start the engine might be a good idea with a set up similar to a diesel/electric locomotive if mileage could be gained over a straight ice but as electric vehicles are today there is too much waste in the form of batteries that is going to have to be disposed of and then the pollution generated by the power plants to charge them. I don't see the enviormental gain.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62
Fe Butt
|
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62 |
Quote:
SO, you DID stop for gas? How many times? Did you start with a full tank, then stop and refuel? Assuming a 30 gallon tank, and 989 miles (Philly-Orlando), that works out to an impressive 16mpg if you started with a full tank, and refueled once. But, that is not the same thing as doing that trip on ONE tank, which was the original statement if I read right, and would then require you to get 32mpg (or for you to have dual tanks and about 60 gallons)
I meant one shot as in minimum amount of time wasted in fuel stops vs what would be needed with an electric vehicle. An electric vehicle could easily be produced that would haul that kind of load but you would sacrifice distance and recharge time.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954 |
Quote:
I stopped more than once and have a 60 gallon capacity but I only stopped long enough to pump gas, I didn't have to wait to charge my battery too. I do think a hybrid with a std. size battery used to start the engine might be a good idea with a set up similar to a diesel/electric locomotive if mileage could be gained over a straight ice but as electric vehicles are today there is too much waste in the form of batteries that is going to have to be disposed of and then the pollution generated by the power plants to charge them. I don't see the enviormental gain.
OK, but you are not talking apples to apples. Your fuelling up would be replaced by recharging the batteries, not added to it. And, I concede, and have pointed out, that this is the ONE hurdle for electrics, because, as you stated, the battery is just too inefficient right now, but as pointed out, there are BILLIONS of private money from some VERY big players being dumped into changing not only the efficiency of the storage system, but also the charging time. A capacitor would require seconds or minutes to charge for instance. Hard to say what will develop. But I pretty much agree with what you are saying, and I have actually been reading that FINALLY, several car manufacturers are bringing out Diesel Hybrids. This should have been Phase I, not Phase II, as a diesel-electric rig is MUCH more efficient than any gas or gas-electric rig, any time, any day. But, we are biased against diesels in this country unfortunately, and that is finally starting to change slowly, so hopefully this trend will continue. And there are other technologies out there as well that are being worked on, for instance using hydrogen as a fuel, which could be used to charge an energy pack, both through a combustion engine concept, or purely through chemistry with no actual combustion. That's why I'm pretty hopeful, there are a LOT of possible solutions out there, and when we're not trying to kill each other off, we humans are actually pretty ingenious. Actually, maybe we're more ingenious when we ARE trying to kill each other off (rocket technology, atomic power, nuclear submarines, chemical and biological weapons!) OK, so we need to find a way to weaponize a Tesla, and we're good to go!
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954 |
Quote:
Quote:
SO, you DID stop for gas? How many times? Did you start with a full tank, then stop and refuel? Assuming a 30 gallon tank, and 989 miles (Philly-Orlando), that works out to an impressive 16mpg if you started with a full tank, and refueled once. But, that is not the same thing as doing that trip on ONE tank, which was the original statement if I read right, and would then require you to get 32mpg (or for you to have dual tanks and about 60 gallons)
I meant one shot as in minimum amount of time wasted in fuel stops vs what would be needed with an electric vehicle. An electric vehicle could easily be produced that would haul that kind of load but you would sacrifice distance and recharge time.
OK, then I misinterpreted you, because when I say "one shot" with regard to a trip, I mean no stops for anything, no gas, bring coffee, pee in a soda bottle, crap on the passenger seat while on cruise control and holding the steering wheel with a couple ropes...
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1
Second Wind
|
|
Second Wind
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1 |
Low interest loan or zero interest loans are a good idea. No Grants corporate wellfare should be over and done with. Multi billiondollar companies getting free money while average Joe struggles is BS.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
|
|
New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
I believe if subsidies are a necessary evil then subsidize research not production.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62
Fe Butt
|
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62 |
I think the research should be a loan as well if it is to a large corporation. If to an individual or small company then maybe in the form of a grant but there should be a gross income cap to determine eligibility and it should be a low one with a certain allowance per employee at a given pay rate and man hr.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
|
|
Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
To, I think, everyone's surprise (including mine) we are actually going to MAKE money on the "bailouts' to the auto companies.
Win, win.
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954 |
I have no problem subsidizing production as well, since capital equipment purchasing and production validation testing can be one of the most demanding phases of a companies startup with regard to capital. Research costs money, don't get me wrong, but in automotive for instance, one has to purchase all of the production equipment, hire operators, buy production materials from production tooling, and then run months upon months of production validation tests (and re-tests if there are failures, and we EASILY spent north of $150,000 on validation testing for ONE customer, not including our own internal tests which were required for our own warranty info and projections) while not being allowed to ship production goods to the customer. Also, prototype samples are often sold at 10-20 times the cost of a production quality component so can help a companies bottom line. This is a lot of capital and inventory (since you don't just run the samples needed for testing but a much larger production run that the parts are pulled from at random) to sit on while not having any revenue from that customer, hence the difficulty in getting many good ideas to actually be produced and sold (without sinking a company!)
Last edited by Bayern710; 12/29/2011 12:08 AM.
|
|
|
Re: Fill 'er up, go green!
|
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1
Second Wind
|
|
Second Wind
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1 |
Modern gasoline is crap. I gotta bike on the lift that has only sat for 3 months and the Pilot jetts are so gummed that you can't see any light through them. There are brown rings on the needles where they set in the mains.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
|
|
|
|
|
