 Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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I am not talking about anything saved I am talking about what my sister gets if she pays 0 in. It is in her contract. I have nothing against a pension but 85% or above is a bit much in my opinion. A saved percentage plus that percentage matched is more reasonable.
Wow, with a 0% contribution she gets a 100% retirement package? That is impressive. I don't know how a system can survive that way.
Wow. I worked for the public schools for 15 years and I don't believe a word of that. I has HUGE amounts deducted for my retirement. I went into private practice and now make multiples of my old salary.
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Learned Hand
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OP
Learned Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,425 |
Smokey, I graduated HS from TC Roberson in Skyland!
LOLOLOL that is a shame, heck! 1 friggin cent!?! who would have really cared if it actually went up to 2 cents? WOW
Mal: "Y'all see the man hanging out of the spaceship with the really big gun?{ref, Jayne} Man's lookin' to kill some folk. So really, it's his will y'all should worry about thwarting."
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 240
Adjunct
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Adjunct
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and the system is broken. How do you fix it?
The education system did an excellent job of creating workers for the industrial age. However, the work force is much more diverse now.
How do you fix it? That's the million dollar question, but I'll give it a shot.
1 - Schools must move beyond teaching information that can be googled in seconds. A greater focus should be on curriculum that goes deep in understanding and problem solving. Yes, basic skills are still important. However, the process of discovering why the Panama Canal was built is more valuable than just memorizing the date it was built.
2 - Teachers and administrators need time to discuss and review student performance trends and effective teaching strategies. Working on common goals and receiving competent feedback = steady improvement.
3 - Increase efforts to build home - school partnerships. Getting parents truly engaged with student learning is largely an untapped resource.
4 - Online learning... Interactive Smart Boards... iPads... etc. continue to shape how we engage students. Learning really is going to become "Any Time, Any Place, Any Pace" - We need to continue to look beyond the exclusive use of Carnegie Units. Learning needs to occur outside of school walls as well as within classrooms.
From what I see on a daily basis... teachers and administrators are doing a great job within the current system. No one would argue that there is always room for improvement. However, changing the educational system to meet today's demands is the bigger issue. There are many levels of control from teacher leaders to building administration to district administration to school boards to state education departments to the federal level. Within each level there are many other groups that may influence decision-making. Getting everyone to agree on a common plan to change the system is a huge task.
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
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Wow Denny, that was SO well stated.  BUT, I have to tell ya here that even with all that beautiful verbiage that you just typed there, the bottom line here is STILL primarily your Numero-Tres there, amigo. Uh huh, that's correct-a-mundo, alright. Once again, until the vast majority of PARENTS in this country TEACH their kids the value of a well-rounded education, AND until the vast majority of PARENTS in this country TEACH respect for knowledge and those who possess it and wish to impart some of it upon others(namely TEACHERS), AND until the vast majority of PARENTS in this country TEACH their offspring that it IS "cool" to be "smart", and in fact it's "cooler" to be "smart" than it is to idolize some "tough guy" or some "gangster" or some "actor" or some "Jock" or some etc, etc, etc...THEN we MIGHT be able to turn this educational ship around and toward some semblance of what an educational system SHOULD be!!! (...and I'll tell ya ONE THING here...the FIRST Politico who has the GUTS to say to the parents of this country what I just typed there will get MY vote!!!...but, fat chance of THAT ever happening, because they're ALL pretty much gutless nowdays, and on BOTH sides of the proverbial aisle, because THEY'RE just "smart" enough to know that people don't what to hear what people don't want to hear!)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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Reality check.
Ain't gonna happen Dwight.
Parents that are absent won't just suddenly show up AND take interest in their children's education.
They're either too self-possessed, to busy trying to keep up with ol' Jones, in prison, doped up, deadbeat, dead, etc. to ever do anything about raising their progeny.
So while it would be great if they DID make that choice, ain't gonna happen.
So what's the solution?
Damned if I know. But playing the blame game is one of those great anti-intellectual American pastimes ya know. If you can blame the teachers, or the gubmunt, or Hollyweird it makes you feel like there is something that can be done for a nearly hopeless situation.
Though Denny's points and ideas are GREAT for that segment of the population who really do give a sh!t.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,335
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Posts: 1,335 |
Changing direction here a little bit.....
Remember when grandparents and great-grandparents stated that they only had an 8th grade education? Well, check this out. Could any of us have passed the 8th grade in 1895?
This is the eighth-grade final exam from 1895 in Salina, Kansas, USA. It was taken from the original document on file at the Smokey Valley Genealogical Society and Library in Salina, KS, and reprinted by the Salina Journal.
8th Grade Final Exam: Salina, KS -1895
Grammar (Time, one hour)
1. Give nine rules for the use of capital letters.
2. Name the parts of speech and define those that have no modifications.
3. Define verse, stanza and paragraph
4. What are the principal parts of a verb? Give principal parts of "lie,""play," and "run."
5. Define case; Illustrate each case.
6 What is punctuation? Give rules for principal marks of punctuation.
7 - 10. Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that you understand the practical use of the rules of grammar.
Arithmetic (Time, 1:25 hours)
1. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic.
2. A wagon box is 2 ft. deep, 10 feet long, and 3 ft. wide. How many bushels of wheat will it hold?
3. If a load of wheat weighs 3942 lbs., what is it worth at 50cts/bushel, deducting 1050 lbs. for tare?
4 District No 33 has a valuation of $35,000. What is the necessary levy to carry on a school seven months at $50 per month, and have $104 for incidentals?
5. Find the cost of 6,720 lbs. coal at $6.00 per ton.
6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 percent.
7. What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 ft. long at $20 per metre?
8. Find bank discount on $300 for 90 days (no grace) at 10 percent.
9. What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per acre, the distance of which is 640 rods?
10. Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt
U.S. History (Time, 45 minutes)
1. Give the epochs into which U.S. History is divided
2. Give an account of the discovery of America by Columbus.
3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War.
4. Show the territorial growth of the United States.
5. Tell what you can of the history of Kansas.
6. Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion.
7. Who were the following: Morse, Whitney, Fulton, Bell, Lincoln, Penn, and Howe?
8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800, 1849, 1865.
Orthography (Time, one hour)
1. What is meant by the following: Alphabet, phonetic, orthography, etymology, syllabication
2. What are elementary sounds? How classified?
3. What are the following, and give examples of each: Trigraph, subvocals, diphthong, cognate letters, linguals
4. Give four substitutes for caret 'u'.
5. Give two rules for spelling words with final 'e.' Name two exceptions under each rule.
6. Give two uses of silent letters in spelling. Illustrate each.
7. Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word: bi, dis, mis, pre, semi, post, non, inter, mono, sup.
8. Mark diacritically and divide into syllables the following, and name the sign that indicates the sound: card, ball, mercy, sir, odd, cell, rise, blood, fare, last.
9. Use the following correctly in sentences: cite, site, sight, fane, fain, feign, vane, vain, vein, raze, raise, rays.
10. Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by use of diacritical marks and by syllabication.
Geography (Time, one hour)
1 What is climate? Upon what does climate depend?
2. How do you account for the extremes of climate in Kansas?
3 Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean?
4. Describe the mountains of North America
5. Name and describe the following: Monrovia, Odessa, Denver, Manitoba, Hecla, Yukon, St. Helena, Juan Fernandez, Aspinwall and Orinoco.
6. Name and locate the principal trade centers of the U.S
7. Name all the republics of Europe and give the capital of each.
8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same latitude?
9. Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the sources of rivers.
10. Describe the movements of the earth. Give the inclination of the earth.
Notice that the exam took FIVE HOURS to complete. Gives the saying "he only had an 8th grade education" a whole new meaning, doesn't it? Also shows you how poor our education system has become... and, NO, I don't have the answers, and I failed the 8th grade test!
For those of you who did not know it, the orthography of a language is the set of rules of how to write (had to look it up).
I am not saying the above testing is completely relevant today, but it is interesting how much they did expect from an 8th grader in 1895.
The erosion of the educational system (K through 12th grade) started when the federal government got involved (Department of Education), and slowly took over what was suppose to be a "States right" toward education. Luckily the Department of Education hasn't gotten into higher education as of yet (other than student loans).
Tom
Last edited by tcv; 08/18/2011 5:27 AM.
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin, US author, diplomat, inventor, physicist, politician, & printer (1706 - 1790)
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Dec 2006
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New Tires
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New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
Interestingly, I've read many articles arguing that a liberal arts degree is the new high school diploma. While we forget that there are many suburban and rural public schools doing very well in preparing students, but the vast majority of urban schools are abject failures. It's a cultural problem of gov over dependents, fatherless homes and children having children. It's a lack of personal discipline and responsibility, no amount of public spending will change this.
Public spending on education in constant dollars per student:
1961-62 $2808
1907-08 $10441
Not so anti-education.
Last edited by MACMC; 08/18/2011 8:10 AM.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Dec 2006
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New Tires
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New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
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Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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The per pupil cost of government schools has well more than doubled (in inflation adjusted dollars) in less than thirty years. It is several times what it was 100 years ago. At the same time we graduate a huge percentage of functional illiterates. We all laugh at the Jay Walking segment of the Tonight Show but blinding ignorance is common among those whose teachers were more concerned with their self esteem than their education. Blaming parents and "society" is crap. There have always been problem children and bad parents. We didn't used to allow them to destroy the education of everyone else. Also, there are plenty of Catholic, and other private, schools that draw from the same population, spend much less and do a much better job. They DEMAND discipline, punish miscreants and expect results. At the government schools we have the teachers unions and bureaucracy. The unions protect incompetents and demands higher pay, better benefits and retirement than the private sector but much fewer hours at work. The bureaucracy rewards based upon seniority rather than results, refuses to support classroom teachers against juvenile delinquents and their parents, and loads up the payroll with lots of non classroom staff. Agenda driven politicians and "activists" demand time be used to indoctrinate kids in whatever is politically correct As for salaries and benefits. I have spoken with RETIRED teachers from several states who are being paid well in excess of $100K annually, plus healthcare. While I'm sure there are some whose wages have not gone up, they would be the exception rather than the rule. Teachers salaries have gone up even during the current recession, usually much faster than the rate of inflation. Public education in the US is a jobs program for the middle class. The abysmal state of actual education and the ever increasing amount we spend on it prove the assertion. For more information, and to see how your state is doing, check out this link. http://www.alec.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Report_Card_on_American_Education
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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I am not talking about anything saved I am talking about what my sister gets if she pays 0 in. It is in her contract. I have nothing against a pension but 85% or above is a bit much in my opinion. A saved percentage plus that percentage matched is more reasonable.
Wow, with a 0% contribution she gets a 100% retirement package? That is impressive. I don't know how a system can survive that way.
Wow. I worked for the public schools for 15 years and I don't believe a word of that. I has HUGE amounts deducted for my retirement. I went into private practice and now make multiples of my old salary.
The teachers in New Jersey, New York and California have that deal. Where were you?
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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In North Carolina the schools are being devastated by budget cuts. The root cause? The Legislature killed a 1-cent sales tax that went to school funding. The public opinion? Sixty-eight percent of the voters wanted to keep the 1-cent tax. The unexplained? Why do they call the people who killed a 1-cent tax that 68% of the voters wanted to keep 'representatives'?
Sounds like the crap they pulled here in Iowa. They said a 20% increase in the sales tax was "Just a penny." and said we'd get to vote on it again in ten years. They lied about how they would spend the money, and of course they changed the law, taking away our chance to vote, and put the money into the "school infrastructure fund." The construction unions loved it. Now we're getting lots of Taj Mahal buildings, separate new buildings for administration, college level stadiums for high schools and a continuing downward trend in student achievement. But hey! we proved our dedication to education by throwing boatloads of money at it. It's for the children don't you know.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
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Reality check.
Ain't gonna happen Dwight.
Parents that are absent won't just suddenly show up AND take interest in their children's education.
They're either too self-possessed, to busy trying to keep up with ol' Jones, in prison, doped up, deadbeat, dead, etc. to ever do anything about raising their progeny.
So while it would be great if they DID make that choice, ain't gonna happen.
Oh, I knew that, Bill. Why do ya think I've mentioned the idea of BIRTH CONTROL more than a few times in this friggin' thread? 
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So what's the solution?
Damned if I know. But playing the blame game is one of those great anti-intellectual American pastimes ya know. If you can blame the teachers, or the gubmunt, or Hollyweird it makes you feel like there is something that can be done for a nearly hopeless situation.
Oh, now Bill. I THINK you meant to say, "playing the blame game is one of those great anti-ELITIST American pastimes", now didn't ya?! 
I mean you DO know that many folks in this country NOW somehow believe that "Intellectualism" and "Elitism" are just one and the same, don't ya?!
(...and so, what say you keep up with "modern thought" here, okay?!) 
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Sep 2010
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
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Oh, and speaking of "Schools" and "Parents" and "Birth Control"... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgvncXlYA4YWouldn't it have been great if Mrs. Cano would have used The Pill or even some OTHER form of birth control about 18 friggin' years ago? (...or, at the very LEAST would be smart enough to know that her little Jared was hording bomb making material in her OWN HOME in 2011...OR at the VERY least, that little Jared should have maybe started to see a SHRINK about 5 years ago!)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Sep 2010
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1 |
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Wow Denny, that was SO well stated.
BUT, I have to tell ya here that even with all that beautiful verbiage that you just typed there, the bottom line here is STILL primarily your Numero-Tres there, amigo. Uh huh, that's correct-a-mundo, alright.
Once again, until the vast majority of PARENTS in this country TEACH their kids the value of a well-rounded education, AND until the vast majority of PARENTS in this country TEACH respect for knowledge and those who possess it and wish to impart some of it upon others(namely TEACHERS), AND until the vast majority of PARENTS in this country TEACH their offspring that it IS "cool" to be "smart", and in fact it's "cooler" to be "smart" than it is to idolize some "tough guy" or some "gangster" or some "actor" or some "Jock" or some etc, etc, etc...THEN we MIGHT be able to turn this educational ship around and toward some semblance of what an educational system SHOULD be!!!
(...and I'll tell ya ONE THING here...the FIRST Politico who has the GUTS to say to the parents of this country what I just typed there will get MY vote!!!...but, fat chance of THAT ever happening, because they're ALL pretty much gutless nowdays, and on BOTH sides of the proverbial aisle, because THEY'RE just "smart" enough to know that people don't what to hear what people don't want to hear!)
Right on, 85 percent of the problem is the parents.
Ah ha this gives me an idea. If you have a child in school you also get tested on a quarterly basis. What is your child's GPA, what classes are they taking. How many days the kid missed everything about the kid, and their performance. If they fall below a certain average on the test then they pay a graduated fine.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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WHAT?! You mean make parents RESPONSIBLE for the actions of their KIDS???!!! Well Chad, I hope you realize that somethin' like THAT might come as quite a shock to people like Mrs. Cano!!!  (...to say NOTHIN' of whoever the heck she's probably SHACKIN' UP with now, seein' as how I'll bet the kid's FATHER has probably been out of the picture for many years now...I mean nowadays there IS a 50/50 chance that Daddy isn't livin' with Mommy anymore, ya know...and THAT goes for folks who supposedly PRIZE the idea of "The Sanctity of Marriage" TOO!!!)
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Sep 2010
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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Oh gee your gonna drag the sanctity of marriage into this. Haven't you figured out that not much is sacred any more
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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Privatize it all.
That would work like the 'Charter' schools. They'd pluck out all the healthy, intact students and claim great educational results. The reality is, they are comparing their results to public schools who also must include students with special needs, low IQ, hearing impairment, developmental delays, etc., in their data. When you compare apples to apples (i.e., regular education students) the charter schools perform miserably.
They privatized prisons in Arizona, as I recall. The prisons then donated to the election campaigns of judges. The result? Said judges give harsher sentences in order to put more money in the hands of the private prisons.
The same kind of malfeasance, only worse, would happen if you tried to privatize public schools. It would be a return to segregated schools, among other things.
I've worked with many, many teachers. All but a tiny few should probably be considered for sainthood. Along with nurses, they are the finest people our country produces. I don't know where they get the strength, compassion, and sense of self sacrifice.
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
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Oh gee your gonna drag the sanctity of marriage into this. Haven't you figured out that not much is sacred any more
Well, evidently NOT with the divorce rate in the U.S. being at around 50% nowadays anyway, Chad!
And, don't you think that there MIGHT be at least a LITTLE correlation between this continual slide in academic achievement in American kids these last few decades because of the phenomenon of "The Broken Home Syndrome"?
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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I have personal experience where the broken home is sometimes better than that same home being whole. I think marriage is take too lightly these days and people tend to opt out rather than fix whats broken and communicate their issues and compromise. That being said it is better to separate than constantly bicker and argue in front of the children. Sometimes differences can't be settled but this probably should have been given time to surface before procreation.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
Quote:
I have personal experience where the broken home is sometimes better than that same home being whole. I think marriage is take too lightly these days and people tend to opt out rather than fix whats broken and communicate their issues and compromise. That being said it is better to separate than constantly bicker and argue in front of the children. Sometimes differences can't be settled but this probably should have been given time to surface before procreation.
Absolutely. Staying together when you revile each other is a sure way to screw up your kids forever.
A bit of irony, my three siblings are conservative republicans who like to espouse 'traditional family values' (which I've come to realize means 'what is best for affluent white people'). Between them they have had seven spouses. Me, I'm just a live and let live liberal guy. I've been married once and have stayed that way for 26 years.
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Sep 2010
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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To get down to the root of it would take back to sex. More people marry because they don't want to find a new sex partner at the time. Than those who truly love each other. So maybe it the sanctity of sex more than anything else. I have known too many guys who married some chick they found in a bar, went home had with and had sex with her. The next thing you know they are living together, then they're married. After two kids or so now they want a divorce.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62 |
Quote:
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I have personal experience where the broken home is sometimes better than that same home being whole. I think marriage is take too lightly these days and people tend to opt out rather than fix whats broken and communicate their issues and compromise. That being said it is better to separate than constantly bicker and argue in front of the children. Sometimes differences can't be settled but this probably should have been given time to surface before procreation.
Absolutely. Staying together when you revile each other is a sure way to screw up your kids forever.
A bit of irony, my three siblings are conservative republicans who like to espouse 'traditional family values' (which I've come to realize means 'what is best for affluent white people'). Between them they have had seven spouses. Me, I'm just a live and let live liberal guy. I've been married once and have stayed that way for 26 years.
Don't try and make it a political thing, both sides have values. Both sides make the same mistakes as far as this issue is concerned.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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I have personal experience where the broken home is sometimes better than that same home being whole. I think marriage is take too lightly these days and people tend to opt out rather than fix whats broken and communicate their issues and compromise. That being said it is better to separate than constantly bicker and argue in front of the children. Sometimes differences can't be settled but this probably should have been given time to surface before procreation.
Absolutely. Staying together when you revile each other is a sure way to screw up your kids forever.
A bit of irony, my three siblings are conservative republicans who like to espouse 'traditional family values' (which I've come to realize means 'what is best for affluent white people'). Between them they have had seven spouses. Me, I'm just a live and let live liberal guy. I've been married once and have stayed that way for 26 years.
Don't try and make it a political thing, both sides have values. Both sides make the same mistakes as far as this issue is concerned.
You might find it interesting to look at which states have the highest divorce rates.
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62 |
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I have personal experience where the broken home is sometimes better than that same home being whole. I think marriage is take too lightly these days and people tend to opt out rather than fix whats broken and communicate their issues and compromise. That being said it is better to separate than constantly bicker and argue in front of the children. Sometimes differences can't be settled but this probably should have been given time to surface before procreation.
Absolutely. Staying together when you revile each other is a sure way to screw up your kids forever.
A bit of irony, my three siblings are conservative republicans who like to espouse 'traditional family values' (which I've come to realize means 'what is best for affluent white people'). Between them they have had seven spouses. Me, I'm just a live and let live liberal guy. I've been married once and have stayed that way for 26 years.
Don't try and make it a political thing, both sides have values. Both sides make the same mistakes as far as this issue is concerned.
You might find it interesting to look at which states have the highest divorce rates.
Still not political rather environmental, not going to turn this into a political discussion no matter how hard you try.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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No, no...I'm not interested in that. They were just the examples that came to mind first. It's just that folks, of whatever political ilk, who make the most noise about marriage, values, yada, yada, seem to have the worst record when it comes to putting it into practice.
But I am interested in what you meant by 'environmental', in regards to the divorce rate by states. I'm not sure what you are getting at.
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
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No, no...I'm not interested in that. They were just the examples that came to mind first. It's just that folks, of whatever political ilk, who make the most noise about marriage, values, yada, yada, seem to have the worst record when it comes to putting it into practice.
OH! You've noticed that TOO have you, Chet?!
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But I am interested in what you meant by 'environmental', in regards to the divorce rate by states. I'm not sure what you are getting at.
That was just Ian's way of sayin' that maybe you shouldn't "press it", 'cause continuing on that tact will almost assuredly flow into a discussion of some people's strongly held "Beliefs", and if there is any validity to those beliefs, and then THAT could get rather heated.
And so Ian is probably right about ending that course here and now.
(...pssst...but to answer your question here Chet, I looked it up, and yeah, the divorce rates are highest in "Real America"...if ya know what I mean!!!)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62 |
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No, no...I'm not interested in that. They were just the examples that came to mind first. It's just that folks, of whatever political ilk, who make the most noise about marriage, values, yada, yada, seem to have the worst record when it comes to putting it into practice.
But I am interested in what you meant by 'environmental', in regards to the divorce rate by states. I'm not sure what you are getting at.
I was not getting at anything specific but rather a generalization. If you took each individual case and leave state, region, or politics out of it and rather look at up bringing, personality, values they were surrounded by, peer group (not political peers) I think you would find a more valid statistical group. I hate statistics anyway since in most cases they can be bent to prove your ,or anyones, point no matter what that point may be.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
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I have personal experience where the broken home is sometimes better than that same home being whole. I think marriage is take too lightly these days and people tend to opt out rather than fix whats broken and communicate their issues and compromise. That being said it is better to separate than constantly bicker and argue in front of the children. Sometimes differences can't be settled but this probably should have been given time to surface before procreation.
Absolutely. Staying together when you revile each other is a sure way to screw up your kids forever.
A bit of irony, my three siblings are conservative republicans who like to espouse 'traditional family values' (which I've come to realize means 'what is best for affluent white people'). Between them they have had seven spouses. Me, I'm just a live and let live liberal guy. I've been married once and have stayed that way for 26 years.
Btw Chet, ya know you may be right there...well, you AND Ian here, anyway.
Ya see, I was just lookin' at THIS chart here(sorry Ian, I know how much you hate statistics)...
...and I got to thinkin' how "The Greatest Generation"(that would be the WWII generation, of course) tended to keep their marriage vows intact(regardless here of what "region" we're talkin' about, and so we certainly can't make this a "political thing" at all), and THEN if you look at us "Boomers" and the "Gen-X"s ability to stay together, well, WE'VE really screwed THAT UP.
And so, the ONLY "logical" explanation here is that because the "The Greatest Generation" tended to stay together(like my Mom and Dad did), THEN, like you and Ian were sayin', they must have REALLY screwed up OUR minds in the process!!!!
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Sep 2010
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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Well I have been doing some internet investigating, this is what I have found. State to state there apears to be no difference between conservative and liberal states. Also I have found that there appears to be no difference in faith groups and secular. Its pretty equal across the board statistically. I wish it was as easy as pointing a finger and saying its those clods, but its not.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
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Well I have been doing some internet investigating, this is what I have found. State to state there apears to be no difference between conservative and liberal states. Also I have found that there appears to be no difference in faith groups and secular. Its pretty equal across the board statistically. I wish it was as easy as pointing a finger and saying its those clods, but its not.
WELL then Chad...I guess there's goes THAT commonly held belief by some folks in some "regions" of this country that it's those "Elitists" out there that are the 'cause of all these problems such as a high divorce rate, and subsequently the phenomenon of kids not living with Mommy and Daddy any more, EH?!
(...I love it whenever I can lead some people to a little "epiphany"!!!)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Sep 2010
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
Joined: Sep 2010
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Wow you got that in there fast, but its cool info. The WWII guys wanted to give there babies a better life and spoiled their sorry hides. I guess maybe damn it Dwight yall are the ones who screwed it up for every one.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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YEP...and I'll be GLAD to accept ALL the "responsibility" for THAT, alright!!! 
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Sep 2010
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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You know Dwight, that I am not one who blames institutions for the failures of individuals. I am living proof, that through hard work one can self educate and break the bonds of poverty.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
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In total agreement with ya here, Chad! (...and speakin' o' which...here's to your new motorcycle parts venture bein' a great success!)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1
Second Wind
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Second Wind
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1 |
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,694 Likes: 22
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,694 Likes: 22 |
Quote:
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I have personal experience where the broken home is sometimes better than that same home being whole. I think marriage is take too lightly these days and people tend to opt out rather than fix whats broken and communicate their issues and compromise. That being said it is better to separate than constantly bicker and argue in front of the children. Sometimes differences can't be settled but this probably should have been given time to surface before procreation.
Absolutely. Staying together when you revile each other is a sure way to screw up your kids forever.
A bit of irony, my three siblings are conservative republicans who like to espouse 'traditional family values' (which I've come to realize means 'what is best for affluent white people'). Between them they have had seven spouses. Me, I'm just a live and let live liberal guy. I've been married once and have stayed that way for 26 years.
Btw Chet, ya know you may be right there...well, you AND Ian here, anyway.
Ya see, I was just lookin' at THIS chart here(sorry Ian, I know how much you hate statistics)...
...and I got to thinkin' how "The Greatest Generation"(that would be the WWII generation, of course) tended to keep their marriage vows intact(regardless here of what "region" we're talkin' about, and so we certainly can't make this a "political thing" at all), and THEN if you look at us "Boomers" and the "Gen-X"s ability to stay together, well, WE'VE really screwed THAT UP.
And so, the ONLY "logical" explanation here is that because the "The Greatest Generation" tended to stay together(like my Mom and Dad did), THEN, like you and Ian were sayin', they must have REALLY screwed up OUR minds in the process!!!!
There is another glaring thing to be learned from that divorce chart.
When did women start getting really active in the job market competing for the same jobs men were doing?
Once they started to make that same money through the 70s and 80s how did they react?
After they were well established financially did they make better decisions on marriage?
Think on those questions while looking at the chart. I see a lot there. Now think that the heartland of this country develops a little slower to change because of cultural differences. I wonder if the women now are finally catching up to the late 90s and dumping husbands.
Remember the early years of that chart the ladies didn't work or didn't get paid enough money to sustain themselves. They became much more chattel d due to the financial problems for them following divorce.
I wonder if the divorce rates are not more about freedom. The 60s gave them a well deserved message that they were not second class citizens. They took that idea and ran with it.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1
Second Wind
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Second Wind
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,393 Likes: 1 |
We choose our marriage partners poorly. Maybe we should figure that out. I love those E-harmony adds where they are responsible for thousands of marriages daily. Thus consequently half that many divorces. Maybe we should have a moratorium on sex marriage and even dating till we figure out what works and what don't.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825
"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825 |
Neil Clark Warren, founder of eharmony, published an article on Huffington Post this year saying that people shouldn't get married (with the subtext, naturally, that they should use eharmony to find the RIGHT partner).
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Re: This guy knows what he is talking about!
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
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Quote:
Well I have been doing some internet investigating, this is what I have found. State to state there apears to be no difference between conservative and liberal states. Also I have found that there appears to be no difference in faith groups and secular. Its pretty equal across the board statistically. I wish it was as easy as pointing a finger and saying its those clods, but its not.
Uh, I think you need to check that again. There is quite a significant statistical difference between so called liberal and conservative states, as Dwight noted in his post. But I entirely agree that it's too easy to attach statistical outcomes where none may exist. I just find it interesting that the folks that make the most noise about "families" have such a hard time maintaining them.
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