 Not Third Oldest
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Should be Riding
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OP
Should be Riding
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Just sent this to the editor at Motorcycle Consumer News... Quote:
In Scott Rousseau’s article “Moto Guzzi Black Eagle” in the May 2011 issue, he states that Moto Guzzi is the third oldest continuously operating motorcycle brand behind Royal Enfield and Harley Davidson. That is incorrect. Triumph Motorcycles is the oldest continuously operating motorcycle company in the world.
Triumph traces their roots all the way back to 1883, taking the name “Triumph” in 1896 and building their first motorcycle in 1902. In 1983, Triumph did file bankruptcy, but was bought (before the bankruptcy was completed) by John Bloor. John Bloor hired Les Harris to continue building Bonneville’s under the Triumph name to keep Triumph in continuous production. Triumph Motorcycles is still producing motorcycles and is showing no signs of slowing .
Harley Davidson started as a company in 1903, but did not complete building their first motorcycle until 1904, then did not sell a motorcycle until 1905 (they sold three that year).
Royal Enfield did start building bicycles with small engines in 1900 (Triumph started doing this in 1895). Production completely stopped in 1905 and was revived in 1910 with a 425cc V-Twin. The actual English Royal Enfield company completely closed their doors in 1970. In 1955, Madras Motors formed “Enfield India” in India to assemble Enfield Bullets (with all the parts shipped in from the U.K.) for the Indian government. Enfield India was a completely separate company from Royal Enfield. Enfield India sold their motorcycles branded as “Enfield” not “Royal Enfield”. They did not acquire the rights to the Royal Enfield name until 1995.
The Royal Enfield company that currently exists, did not start until 1955. The Royal Enfield company that would have been the oldest continually operating company closed their doors in 1970, Triumph Motorcycles is the oldest continually operating motorcycle company in the world.
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Re: Not Third Oldest
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Joined: Aug 2010
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Woo Hoo go Soren!!! Why is it they always assume Triumph has not been around as long as Harley Davidson??? 
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Re: Not Third Oldest
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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Nice Soren. I had the same kind of WTF thoughts when I read that article. You articulated the point very well, I'll look forward to reading your letter in the next MCN. 
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Not Third Oldest
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Re: Not Third Oldest
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Stickman Yogi
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Stickman Yogi
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Live to love, love to live.
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Re: Not Third Oldest
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Joined: Oct 2010
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Adjunct
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Adjunct
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If Triumph is the oldest who's second Harley ? and then Motor Guzzi ?
Peace in the country when the sun goes down , the corn is gettin' high
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Re: Not Third Oldest
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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BMW has to be up there too. I know they have been using shaft drive since the 1920s and have been around since at least 1913 not sure before that.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Not Third Oldest
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Joined: Jan 2009
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I live in the sun downunder
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I live in the sun downunder
Joined: Jan 2009
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BMW manufactured its first motorcycle in 1923.
The R32 was built with a 486cc flat boxer engine.
FrankW
Ex Speedmaster rider, went to the Dark Side now riding an America.
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Re: Not Third Oldest
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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"No respect I tell Ya" When will they learn. Good job Soren
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Re: Not Third Oldest
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Joined: Oct 2007
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Quote:
Way to go, Soren!!
+1
Thom
I might be wrong, I sometimes am.
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Re: Not Third Oldest
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Joined: Jul 2010
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Member
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Member
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Triumph traces their roots all the way back to 1883, taking the name “Triumph” in 1896 and building their first motorcycle in 1902. In 1983, Triumph did file bankruptcy, but was bought (before the bankruptcy was completed) by John Bloor. John Bloor hired Les Harris to continue building Bonneville’s under the Triumph name to keep Triumph in continuous production.
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I was unaware that Les Harris continued building Bonneville's from 1983 through the early 1990's when production picked up with the newer bikes. Is there any production numbers to share on the number of bikes Bonneville's produced from 1983-1989? All my HD friends always put down the brand saying the were not "continuous" and I would love to have that information to share. Great letter and clearly you are an expert on Triumph history!
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Re: Not Third Oldest
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Adjunct
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Adjunct
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Very informative Soren. I had the usual at the bank the other day..."Is that a Triumph? They're still making those? Man that's cool!"
Blue/White, Battery Relocated, 155/45's, AI removed, Cocktail shakers
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Re: Not Third Oldest
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Joined: Jan 2009
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I live in the sun downunder
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I live in the sun downunder
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Les Harris built T140 Bonnevilles under a 5 year licencing agreement which ran from 1983 to 1988. Although no bikes were built in 1984. He produced his first bike in June 1985 and the last in March 1988. He built a total of 1255 bikes, which for the time was quite an acheivement. His main problem was sourcing parts which came from various countries around the world. 
FrankW
Ex Speedmaster rider, went to the Dark Side now riding an America.
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Re: Not Third Oldest
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Joined: Jul 2010
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Member
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Member
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Thanks for the sales data...very interesting. I don't recall ever seeing any Mid-80's Triumphs for sale ever. Something to look for in the future.
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Re: Not Third Oldest
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Here you are, one for sale in the UK. 1987 Harris Bonneville
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Re: Not Third Oldest
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Should be Riding
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OP
Should be Riding
Joined: Jan 2005
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Quote:
If Triumph is the oldest who's second Harley ? and then Motor Guzzi ?
Of existing continiuous brands, Yes. At first I was thinking BMW might be older than Guzzi, but they started building bikes a year later.
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Re: Not Third Oldest
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Should be Riding
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OP
Should be Riding
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Quote:
I was unaware that Les Harris continued building Bonneville's from 1983 through the early 1990's when production picked up with the newer bikes. Is there any production numbers to share on the number of bikes Bonneville's produced from 1983-1989? All my HD friends always put down the brand saying the were not "continuous" and I would love to have that information to share. Great letter and clearly you are an expert on Triumph history!
I'm not an expert, just passionate.
Les Harris only built bikes until 1988. But, by then Triumph had their new manufacturing plant (in Hinkley) and were in production, and development but did not have a new model out the door until 1990. So, there were two years without new models, but they werfe operating and manufacturing. We didnt see Triumphs back in the U.S. until 1995.
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Re: Not Third Oldest
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Adjunct
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Adjunct
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Have a heart that never hardens, a temper that never tires, a touch that never hurts. - Charles Dickens
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Re: Not Third Oldest
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Member
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Member
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I'm not an expert, just passionate. Les Harris only built bikes until 1988. But, by then Triumph had their new manufacturing plant (in Hinkley) and were in production, and development but did not have a new model out the door until 1990. So, there were two years without new models, but they werfe operating and manufacturing. We didnt see Triumphs back in the U.S. until 1995.
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Just found this one for sale:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/82-Triump...6#ht_500wt_1182
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Motorcycle Consumer News Response
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Should be Riding
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OP
Should be Riding
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I finally got a response from Motorcycle Consumer news. They're still wrong. I'll email them again this evening with another response.... Quote:
Thanks for taking the time to write, and thanks for reading MCN. You raise an interesting point about Triumph being the oldest continuously operating motorcycle manufacturer, but it's quite debatable, as Triumph officially closed its doors in 1983. Mr. Bloor did acquire the rights to purchase Triumph factory and intellectual property, but it is my understanding that the factory was completely shut down and emptied before he did. The licensing agreement he signed with Les Harris Racing Spares to build and sell unimproved Bonnevilles with leftover parts hardly qualifies as production, and even if one could make that case, Mr. Bloor did not renew his agreement with Harris in 1988, and the first modular Triumph was not in production until 1991, marking a two- or three-year lapse.
Even if Royal Enfield did cease production between 1905 and 1910, its resumption of production in 1910 would still be earlier than Moto Guzzi's start-up year of 1920, and it is my understanding that the Bullet model was produced via a partnership between Royal Enfield and India's Madras Motors in 1955. However, it is also my understanding that Bullet models were not completely produced in India until 1962. Either way, the Royal Enfield/Enfield Bullet model never went out of production like the Bonneville - and all Triumphs-did in 1983 or arguably in 1988 regardless of whether or not someone owned rights to the name. To my point, someone has always owned rights to the Indian name, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Indian motorcycles have been in continuous production.
You may still think I am wrong, but if so then we both are, as Moto Guzzi wouldn't be the third oldest continuous manufacturer of motorcycles, it would actually be the second oldest, behind Harley-Davidson.
Best regards,
Scott Rousseau
Scott Rousseau
Managing Editor
Motorcycle Consumer News
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Re: Not Third Oldest
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
Very informative Soren. I had the usual at the bank the other day..."Is that a Triumph? They're still making those? Man that's cool!"
Well done Soren!
I had a "what year is that?" from an older car driver the other day.
"2007"I answered
"Oh" was the only reply.I think the bloke thought I was lying.He must have thought it was an earlier bike restored.
Dinosaur.
"Oh Man I only ride 'em.I don't know what makes 'em work". Donald "Oddball" Sutherland
"Don't let the bastards get you down". Kris Kristofferson
"I am only paranoid because everyone is against me". Larry [Frank Burns] Linville
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Re: Motorcycle Consumer News Response
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Ya know Soren, I hate to say this, BUT what Mr. Rousseau stated there is pretty much what I've discovered to be the case after a little(though maybe not nearly as much as yours) "research" of my own.
I too have read from more than a few motorcycle historians that the licensing contract John Bloor signed with Les Harris in order to continue operations had expired about a year and half or so before the first water-cooled motorcycles left the Hinckley factory.
And thus, there did appear to be a break in the production of "new" Triumph motorcycles for any market, export or home, for that length of time, giving credence to Mr. Rousseur's argument.
(...HOWEVER, if you have information to the contrary, I would certainly like to read it...and maybe that will be in your response back to him, eh?!)
****EDIT to follow****
Wait a minute. I guess your point is that even though Triumph wasn't PRODUCING motorcycles for those model years 1988-1990, one COULD make the argument that they were still "in operation", because they were in the "operation" of building a new factory...RIGHT???
(...oh, well, I suppose that's an argument which could hold more than a little water, as they say!)
Last edited by Dwight; 05/02/2011 7:29 PM.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Motorcycle Consumer News Response
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Whether it was continuous or not with the 1988 to 1991 pause, they definetely started first did they not? In my book that makes Triumph the oldest. At least Triumph didn't open up bowling alleys. 
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Re: Motorcycle Consumer News Response
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Quote:
At least Triumph didn't open up bowling alleys.
Uh huh Steve....NOR ever serve up any rice dishes at the Snack Bar there, eh ol' buddy???!!! 
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Motorcycle Consumer News Response
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Should be Riding
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OP
Should be Riding
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Quote:
Wait a minute. I guess your point is that even though Triumph wasn't PRODUCING motorcycles for those model years 1988-1990, one COULD make the argument that they were still "in operation", because they were in the "operation" of building a new factory...RIGHT???
(...oh, well, I suppose that's an argument which could hold more than a little water, as they say!)
Exactly. One could also say that since they were developing and manufacturing new motors and models (even through there is a break in model year bikes for two years), they were still in production.
My original point to them was that not only is Triumph the oldest continuous operating company, there were two completely different Royal Enfield companies. One that closed in 1970 and one that didn't even adopt the Royal Enfield name until 1995.
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Re: Motorcycle Consumer News Response
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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This is just a pissing match in spinning history. You can never present it in a way that they'll not counter with another version with the emphasis on slightly different language. I'm glad you have time to fight the fight cuz I sure don't.
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Re: Motorcycle Consumer News Response
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Ya know...I think I now stand firmly in YOUR corner in this debate, Soren ol' buddy!!!  (...well, okay, actually I'm sitting here, but you get what I mean!!!)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Motorcycle Consumer News Response
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Quote:
...I'm glad you have time to fight the fight cuz I sure don't.
Well, THAT'S certainly good to hear...considerin' that I read just yesterday that that Triumph of YOURS is still in pieces ONE friggin' MONTH before the SWTF!!!! 
(...PRIORITIES here John...we're talkin' PRIORITIES here, young man!!!)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Motorcycle Consumer News Response
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Should be Riding
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OP
Should be Riding
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Here is my reply... If they respond again, either way, I'll just let it go and chalk it up to another one that refuses to be st free by the truth
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John Bloor purchased the company in 1983 before the doors were closed on the Meriden factory and started planning and building the Hinckley factory (it was actually John Bloor that converted the old Meriden site into the housing complex that it is today in 1984). Whether or not you count the Les Harris Bonnevilles as actual model year production motorcycles, Triumph was in operation. They were developing the new motors and models. In 1990 Triumph unveiled six new models at the Cologne show. Because of the Les Harris models, there were only two model years that were skipped, but Triumph was operating. You could then also make the argument that they were in production by building and developing new motorcycles.
With Royal Enfield, that is a completely different situation. Royal Enfield and Enfield India, even though they both were building Bullets, they were both completely separate companies. Royal Enfield (the U.K company) closed up shop permanently in 1970. After NVT dissolved Royal Enfield, nobody purchased or took over ownership of Royal Enfield. Even though Bullets were still being built by Enfield India, Royal Enfield did not exist between 1970 and 1995 when Enfield India acquired the rights to the Royal Enfield name. That is 25 years where the brand name did not even exist. Triumph is the oldest continuous operating brand in the world.
Triumph is the oldest continuous motorcycle brand in the world.
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Re: Motorcycle Consumer News Response
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Motorcycle Consumer News Response
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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Thanks for stickin up for us, Soren!
Fidelis et Fortis
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Re: Motorcycle Consumer News Response
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Lets hope they print the entire debate and let the readers decide. A little controversy on the MCN site would bring even more exposure.
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Re: Not Third Oldest
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Second Wind
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Second Wind
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Get em tiger. Its good to know there are those who have kept the story alive.
I have no faith in human perfectability. I think that human exertion will have no appreciable effect upon humanity. Man is now only more active - not more happy - nor more wise, than he was 6000 years ago.
Edgar Allan Poe
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