 Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Learned Hand
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OP
Learned Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,335 |
I was reading Germany is planning on shutting down all its nuclear power plants by 2020. They were planning to do this prior to the disaster in Japan, but now they are looking to accelerate it after the fact. Currently they get about 23% of their power from nuclear (about the same as the United States), 17% from renewable and the remainder from Fossil fuel power plants. They are hoping to replace the nuclear power with more renewable energy sources.
I wouldn't think of Germany as a great place for using Solar and even wind farms, but in the last couple of years they have spent almost 4 times more money on Solar than the United States.
Living in Florida going Solar would be great, except the cost. Even with all the subsidies provided by the State and Federal Governments it would still take almost 10 years for me to recover the cost of the Solar system in reduced electric bills.
Tom
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin, US author, diplomat, inventor, physicist, politician, & printer (1706 - 1790)
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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Posts: 2,146 |
If you do the research, particularly the cost of the steam turbines to manufacture (and I'm sure everyone can come up with their own numbers to prove their own cause) nuclear is just about THE most expensive energy out there.
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Jan 2005
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"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825 |
I heard today that covering 3% of Arizona's desert with solar panels (and upgrading the grid architecture for distribution) would cover our needs. Not sure how accurate that is but it's food for thought.
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Jan 2006
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,701 Likes: 22 |
Nuclear is the most expensive per Kilowatt hour?
Wow, the folks in Salem New Jersey would disagree. 35 years later and still making power with the same plant. They had a two year issue with shut down though. Still they are up and running. 70% of French domestic power is Nuclear.
It would take 2,000 wind turbines to equal Salem nuclear. They would have to be spinning at at 17 MPH clip constantly meaning 24/7 365. We all know the wind stops and slows down. That is a pretty big geographic area to handle 2000 turbines. They are not small.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,701 Likes: 22
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,701 Likes: 22 |
Just read that solar panels to run your whole house cost about $8.00 per watt. The average house takes 15,000 watts. Solar panels have a life expectancy of 20 years.
$120,000 in panels/20 is $6,000 bucks a year.
6,000/12 is $500.00 per month average then you have to spend another 120 grand.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
I saw an interesting storage idea recently. Everyone thinks storage requires batteries. The method I read about involves creating hydrogen through electrolysis during produce cycles (wind or solar) and then releasing the power via fuel cells during non production cycles. I thought that was kinda neat.
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146 |
It is definitely not cost effective on a house by house method but then neither is nuclear, coal, hydroelectric or anything else.
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
Joined: Feb 2011
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Quote:
Just read that solar panels to run your whole house cost about $8.00 per watt. The average house takes 15,000 watts. Solar panels have a life expectancy of 20 years.
$120,000 in panels/20 is $6,000 bucks a year.
6,000/12 is $500.00 per month average then you have to spend another 120 grand.
That's pretty high but I can't dispute it. It's several times more than the quote I got for my house.
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,701 Likes: 22
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,701 Likes: 22 |
I just read it. Not sure if its true That is to be totally disconnected with no electric coming from the power company or generator.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 385
Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 385 |
Quote:
Just read that solar panels to run your whole house cost about $8.00 per watt. The average house takes 15,000 watts. Solar panels have a life expectancy of 20 years.
$120,000 in panels/20 is $6,000 bucks a year.
6,000/12 is $500.00 per month average then you have to spend another 120 grand.
Talk about going green(backs)...
06 in Mulberry. AI, Dunstalls, Nology coils, TTP
Keep your faith in God, but keep your powder dry.
-Oliver Cromwell
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
What's all this crap about "solar panels"? (Meaning, I'm sure, photovoltaic cells). That's not how solar power plants work. They do it with mirrors
Last edited by bigbill; 03/23/2011 11:08 PM.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964
Stickman Yogi
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Stickman Yogi
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964 |
Live to love, love to live.
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7 |
Just walk across the rug a lot during the winter and store up a charge.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,701 Likes: 22
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,701 Likes: 22 |
Quote:
What's all this crap about "solar panels"?
(Meaning, I'm sure, photovoltaic cells).
That's not how solar power plants work.
They do it with mirrors
Solar panels on your house to make you not need the utility sending you electricity.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
Quote:
Quote:
What's all this crap about "solar panels"?
(Meaning, I'm sure, photovoltaic cells).
That's not how solar power plants work.
They do it with mirrors
Solar panels on your house to make you not need the utility sending you electricity.
Yeah, I understand on the house to supplement and reduce dependence on the grid. But for large generating plants photovoltaic cells aren't up to the task.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,354
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,354 |
Quote:
I heard today that covering 3% of Arizona's desert with solar panels (and upgrading the grid architecture for distribution) would cover our needs. Not sure how accurate that is but it's food for thought.
Back in the mid-90's I visited a solar power plant (ie mirrors) in the high desert of CA, over by Edwards AFB. I think the solar collectors took up about 60 acres and produced a "whopping" 30 MW, if there were no clouds. The solution used to absorb the heat was a toxic goo. Biggest problem they used to have however, was the damn jackrabbits. They would try to drink the water in the cooling tower basin, fall in and drown. Maintenance guys would have to regularly clean out rabbit bones from the cooling water side of the steam turbine condensers.
They could also tell when a cloud was in the area just by the drop in output.
I seriously doubt 3% of the AZ desert would support the electrical needs of the entire US. Plus, what would heppen to the local ecology if all that radiant heat is absorbed by solar collectors? The environmentalists will have a fit.
Nuclear is part of the solution. Yes, they are expensive upfront, but can operate safely for a long time. Don't take what's going on in Japan as proof that nuclear power is inherently unsafe.
Blue/White 2007 TBA, Thruxton needles, Unifilter, AI removed, Polaris Bellmouth, Bubs, Nology Coils/wires, Lightbar, Ricor Intiminators, Hagon Nitros, Tall Sissy Bar w/luggage rack, Dart flyscreen & Lowers. 130 Mains, TrueGel Battery MG12-BS.
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964
Stickman Yogi
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Stickman Yogi
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964 |
And I repeat... Tesla. Tesla? Tesla!!
Live to love, love to live.
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 973
3/4 Throttle
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3/4 Throttle
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 973 |
I agree that we need nuclear power. More plants = more employment = more tax paid and less benefits needing to be paid. And then the money could be ploughed back to make it ceaper and safer all the time generating maintenance jobs.
The same can be said about natural energy, wind farms, solar powers, wave power and hydro electricity. Developing these needs people to work in the industry. When they are employed they get paid and pay taxes and the governments lose the huge deficits they have accrued. And money can be put back in to improve efficiency.
The cost of solar panels will probably drop. Think about cars, many years ago the relative cost of one was prohibitive for many people. Mass production dropped the price and everyone now has one. All it takes is or some enterprising firm outside china to realise this and probably become the new Ford of the 21st century.
Am I being a bit too simplistic here?
Before the war on terror, if I saw an unattended package I used to think "I'll be having that!"
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Jul 2007
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: Jul 2007
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I'm not against nuclear. But, the sigle biggest problem would seem to be storing the spent fuel, especially if we had a whole lot more facilities than we do. The most worry free storage space would be outer space (not THATS one area we will never be able to fill with pollution), but there is no way it could be shipped there safely enough.
Fidelis et Fortis
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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First, I have investments in nuclear plants but, that being said, suppose this whole situation in Japan goes south. Suppose Japan becomes another Chernobyl. Would that change your views? I sure as hell would.
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Jan 2006
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
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Nothing is up to the task. If it were the govt. would not have to subsidize it. Private industry would be chasing it like a rabbit at a greyhound race.
Bang for the buck is lots of horsepower, steam or whatever making a big bunch of electric. BIG dam like Hoover. Few and far between. Coal crackers like we use now, and nuclear.
I would and always have said nuclear over the long haul is for sure the biggest bang for the buck.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,243 Likes: 64 |
It's too bad we can't make fusion work.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Jan 2007
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Solar takes up too much space for much of this country, wind turbines are unsightly & noisy. I read an article in OMNI (anybody else remember that magazine) about 30 years ago about harnessing the power of the Gulf Stream with turbines. I still think that's an interesting idea once they overcome the "chum factor". For the East coast anyway.
There'll never be a one-size-fits-all solution to our energy needs. We need regional solutions.
It also irritates me to see all the new residential construction on newly clear-cut land and then the homebuyer wonders why the electric bill is $400/mo. Leave some of the damn trees for a change and see what a difference that makes! (If my bill exceeds $125, I freak out)
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,354
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,354 |
Quote:
Solar takes up too much space for much of this country, wind turbines are unsightly & noisy. I read an article in OMNI (anybody else remember that magazine) about 30 years ago about harnessing the power of the Gulf Stream with turbines. I still think that's an interesting idea once they overcome the "chum factor". For the East coast anyway.
There'll never be a one-size-fits-all solution to our energy needs. We need regional solutions.
It also irritates me to see all the new residential construction on newly clear-cut land and then the homebuyer wonders why the electric bill is $400/mo. Leave some of the damn trees for a change and see what a difference that makes! (If my bill exceeds $125, I freak out)
Wind turbines are usually located at the top of ridges, clear cut around them (again the environmentalists won't like that). Yes, they are noisy and notorious bird killers. And again, they disrupt wind patterns by all that energy conversion. So how will that affect the area?
Dams were a great idea years ago, but they disrupted the patterns of fish like salmon. Also, they accumulate silt. All that weight of water can be a problem, I hear there are theories of increased earthquakes in Asia due to the massive 3 Gorges Dam in China.
There's no single fix solution. Coal plants are great and they can be very clean burning. Solar has its uses, as well as wind. Nuclear has to be in the mix as well as natural gas and oil. If fuel cell technology can be made affordable, then that will really help as well.
And we still need petrol, so we can ride our bikes!! 
Blue/White 2007 TBA, Thruxton needles, Unifilter, AI removed, Polaris Bellmouth, Bubs, Nology Coils/wires, Lightbar, Ricor Intiminators, Hagon Nitros, Tall Sissy Bar w/luggage rack, Dart flyscreen & Lowers. 130 Mains, TrueGel Battery MG12-BS.
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Jan 2006
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
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I don't mind wind for winds sake. I think its pretty cool technology. I mind the billions we pay as taxpayers making the wind purveyors rich.
Wind, solar and bio get about 20x the subsidy of all other technologies. The corporations providing the power should get not a dime. The university folks inventing ways off oil should get the money.
What we do now is corporate welfare and for bio fuel its farm aid wearing a mask.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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Posts: 2,146 |
I've been to several wind farms including a big sucker in Iowa and another in Texas. They were virtually silent.
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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As far as subsidies, wind and solar perhaps got more THIS YEAR but if you go back to, say, 1947 it will be decades before wind and solar could approach the subsidies nuclear has gotten over the years. The newest technology usually gets the biggest bucks. Even coal gets huge subsidies if you go down the food chain to see who is paying for reclamation, etc.
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Personally, I don't have a problem with nuclear power plants, as long as their backup cooling systems are failsafe. (...oh, and as long as they're miles and miles away from MY house!!!!) 
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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I'm glad you didn't say 'foolproof'. Nothing is foolproof as fools are terribly ingenious.
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,701 Likes: 22
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,701 Likes: 22 |
Oil subsidy was to keep prices down and consumption up. Nobody was competing with oil in 1947. Nobody is competing with oil now.
Let people come face to face with true cost. The government shouldn't be in the subsidy business at all. Has anybody considered it cost more to buy stuff when your dollar is worth less?
Asia is now backing off of subsidies. Oil and gas has gone up 40% around the region. Egypt is hit pretty hard.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,354
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,354 |
Quote:
I've been to several wind farms including a big sucker in Iowa and another in Texas. They were virtually silent.
The ones I've been to, and also talking with others, they emit a pervasive hum, sometimes at quite an annoying level. Even in green-loving Oregon: Oregon wind farms whip up noise
And here's one way over on the side of the country, up in Maine: For Those Near, the Miserable Hum of Clean Energy
I'm not against wind energy, in fact I intend to try and use one at the house I'm building in Thailand (a/c is biggest electrical expense over there). Solar as well. But it's just one piece of the solution.
Blue/White 2007 TBA, Thruxton needles, Unifilter, AI removed, Polaris Bellmouth, Bubs, Nology Coils/wires, Lightbar, Ricor Intiminators, Hagon Nitros, Tall Sissy Bar w/luggage rack, Dart flyscreen & Lowers. 130 Mains, TrueGel Battery MG12-BS.
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,164 Likes: 1
Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,164 Likes: 1 |
We should just get rid of all power generation sources, live in caves and eat pond scum (can't do that either it would harm the pond's ecosystem).
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Jan 2007
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 3,467 Likes: 3 |
Quote:
Personally, I don't have a problem with nuclear power plants, as long as their backup cooling systems are failsafe.
(...oh, and as long as they're miles and miles away from MY house!!!!)
Ah, another NIMBY. Me too.
Though I can look across the river and see two (clean) coal burning towers and with my binoculars, regularly watch the USMC load nuclear weapons on the Navy ships out of Mayport, I am far more concerned about my city seeking FAA approval to lengthen the runway at our local puddle-jumper airport to allow larger private jets. If it can handle Tiger's, Algore's and Rush's planes now, it should be long enough! Travolta can just use the big airport across town.
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,701 Likes: 22
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,701 Likes: 22 |
I think I would rather be close to a nuclear plant than a chemical plant. A large fire at a chemical plant can hurt a lot of folks downwind in a short time frame.
Growing up around oil refineries, the Philadelphia Navy Yard, Salem Nuclear, etc. there are no safe places if you live in an urban area.
Somehow I am thinking you stand a better chance of hitting the lottery than being killed by a nuclear plant. I have no evidence of that, just don't think the death rates per accident are very high.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
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Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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Not if you live in Japan right at this moment. I was listening today about the workers being burned by water seeping into their boots. Those guys are already dead, they just don't know it. What a mess. God help the people trying to fix that mess.
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,701 Likes: 22
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,701 Likes: 22 |
Nobody else has said they are already dead. How many deaths from radiation so far? Have the experts said huge fatalities are to be expected?
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,146
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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From a story in the UK Mail on the 'Fukushima 50':
"Five are believed to have already died and 15 are injured while others have said they know the radiation will kill them."
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,701 Likes: 22
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,701 Likes: 22 |
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Germany going Non-Nuclear by 2020
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825
"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825 |
You want to talk about heroes? There ya go.
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