 Pilots
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So like Keith, I am planning on rejetting the carbs this season. I currently have Sceptres on and according to the previous owner, the jet kit that comes with those pipes was installed (122 mains, 45 pilots) The air box is stock. Bike runs pretty good. I think a little on the rich side.
I plan to remove all snorkels, drill the bottom of the air box and install a Unifilter. According to the jetting chart, that puts me at about 135 mains with the 45 pilot, which I was going to leave. However after reading Dinqua'a carb page, he says "Do not change the pilot jets unless you live at a very high altitude (4,000 ft or higher) or have a very hard time with cold starts. You will end up way too rich which can cause many problems down the road, so to speak."
So, my question is, should I drop back down to 42 pilots when I make these changes or leave the 45's as I had planned?
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Re: Pilots
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Go with the 45s if when you adjust the mix you end up 3 or more turns out. Stock air box you may not need to. Or leave the 45s in and adjust the mix and see where the mix screws end up.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Pilots
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It sounds like you are saying "Leave the 45's and see if it works for me" Is that right? What's all this business on Dinqua's page about not going to 45 pilots?
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Re: Pilots
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Like you I solicited a lot of help when re jetting. Everybody recommended going with 45 pilots. And really it's an idle jet so you will be able to figure it out pretty quick if it's too rich. I have 45's and MI gets no where near 4000 feet. And she rips.
Blue/White, Battery Relocated, 155/45's, AI removed, Cocktail shakers
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Re: Pilots
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Joined: Aug 2005
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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I've used 45 pilot jets since my bike was almost new when I changed the exhausts, UNI, and removed the snorkel. My pilot screws stay about 1.5 to 1.75 out.
Bob
2005 America, 904cc - sold. 2014 Trophy SE.
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Re: Pilots
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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freddy, let me toss some gas on this and tell ya that in 03, my Speedmaster came with 42s as stock. The next year they changed the jets to 45s but it was spoken of before that the new 45s are really the same as the old 42s. Therefore a 45 may be a 45 or maybe really an old 42. Or is the 42 the 45 and....
There should be an * next to that statement. it was accurate at the posting of the original page, but is a little outdated. don't sweat the 42/45 thing at all.
The more open the pipes, the more the pilots can be upped without causing too much of a negative effect.
A word to the wise is not necessary. It is the stupid ones who need the advice.
Pat
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Re: Pilots
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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I will add you will know what size pilots you need by the number of turns you have the mixture screw set to. 3 or more turns out go up 1 size less than that stay the same.The mixture screw should need to be out at least 1 tun too with the correct size pilot.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Pilots
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OK. So here I go. Doing the carbs later today. AI removed, drilled the airbox, removed 3 snorkels, Unifilter, Sceptre pipes. Oh yeah, and it's Cardinal Red  Going with 135 mains, 45 pilots, stock needles, no shims. I will report back later. It's raining here today (and I don't have a seat) so there will be no test ride. I am just hoping it will start, then I will take it from there.
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Re: Pilots
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 Keep us posted, and hope you get a seat soon. I would have made THAT my priority...just kidding buddy!!
Blue/White, Battery Relocated, 155/45's, AI removed, Cocktail shakers
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Re: Pilots
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I can't say that i disagree with you. I've got four projects going on at the same time and they are not really finishing in the right order but oh well. Seat should be here by Saturday.
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 Surprise!
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So I pull the pilots to make sure they are 45's like I was expecting and turns out they are 48's!!!
Since I didn't buy 45's, I put in a set of 42's that I got instead. With the 48's and prevoius setup, turns out the mixture screw was at 3.5 turns out!
ALSO SEMI EMERGENCY....is the correct order for the mixture screw O Ring, washer, spring, screw? One side fell out!
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Re: Surprise!
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Quote:
So I pull the pilots to make sure they are 45's like I was expecting and turns out they are 48's!!!
Since I didn't buy 45's, I put in a set of 42's that I got instead. With the 48's and prevoius setup, turns out the mixture screw was at 3.5 turns out!
ALSO SEMI EMERGENCY....is the correct order for the mixture screw O Ring, washer, spring, screw? One side fell out!
Well no reply so that's the way I put it together.
We will see. 
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Re: Surprise!
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So I finished jetting. Started right up, idles fine but when I give it throttle it skips/cuts out. I am thinking air leak?
I will get some carb cleaner tomorrow and check for that.
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Re: Surprise!
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Yikes. So we have gone from how lean is too lean to how rich is too rich! Yes that sounds like an air leak to me too. Did you take the carb tops off too or just the bowls. Remember to check the vent tube off the bottom of the carbs to make sure it isn't pinched. And of course condoms.
Blue/White, Battery Relocated, 155/45's, AI removed, Cocktail shakers
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Re: Surprise!
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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I run the 48s, I just don't have my air mixture screws out very far. 3.5 turns out with 48s must have been crazy rich.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Surprise!
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I took just the bowls off, not the tops. Condoms look good. I will check the vent tube tomorrow.
Thanks.
-Jim
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Re: Pilots
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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Quote:
OK. So here I go. Doing the carbs later today.
AI removed, drilled the airbox, removed 3 snorkels, Unifilter, Sceptre pipes. Oh yeah, and it's Cardinal Red
Going with 135 mains, 45 pilots, stock needles, no shims.
I will report back later. It's raining here today (and I don't have a seat) so there will be no test ride. I am just hoping it will start, then I will take it from there.
FWIW When I first installed the Sceptres on Vera Lynn I used the jets they shipped: 122/48. (and one shim under each needle which where already in place)
I now run her with 1 shim, 125/45, 2 turns, stock air box, oem filter, all the snorkels in place, and oem needles.
When I re-jetted to the 125/45 combo I removed the shims. Ran like crap. Simply adding the shims back fixed her up.
When you changed out your mains did you drop the holder? If the collar was left out the symptoms would be similar to yours.
Oh yeah, 
What the heck Redondo Ron's write up
Whatever the case with the mods you have done did,  you are gonna have a major flat spot with no shims and oem needles.
To illustrate the flat spot fix here is what Cinnamon Girl had done when I installed the D&D's and pulled the snorkel. K&N filter, stock airbox with primary snorkel removed, and a polaris bellmouth. I had to bring her to this current setup to thwart that beeching flat spot: 130/45 2.25 turns TBS needles, 1 shim
Blowing gravel off rural roads
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Re: Pilots
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I did not take the jet holder out. I held it with a wrench and took out just the jet.
My objective was to make one change at a time and my first was the mains. I thought I might need to shim the needles at some point. Thanks for your input.
So should I just order the 45's right now? looks like I will need them. I thought that's what was in there but like you said, turned out to be 48's.
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Re: Pilots
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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Identically setup bikes may run different jets. Go figure. If your bike wasn't loading up with the 48s then leave em alone till you get your midrange dialed in. Since you didn't take off the carby tops, how do you know the needles don't have any shims? I'd start with one shim. Then go to two. If you need two shims think about a set of TBS needles. Once you have the midrange working double check your mains. Then see how many turns out you are with the air mixture screws. As a rule of thumb, less than 2 turns out then drop the pilots down to 45s.
Generally, the way you jet is to dial in the mains first. Then the midrange, then the pilot circuit. I'd leave the pilots alone for now. Given your selection of 135's and you having what appears to be a major flat spot you'll need to dial in the midrange before worrying about the pilots.
More learned folks than I abound on this site. They'll continue to chime in.
Blowing gravel off rural roads
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Re: Pilots
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Moe is right on. Don't shim the needles yet and fix one thing at a time. Mine ran bad with shims. Too rich . Mains are set so let's focus on the pilots. You put the 42's in. What are your turn kit screws set at for now? When I was rejetting everybody told me to get 45's for what it's worth and I still run them.
Blue/White, Battery Relocated, 155/45's, AI removed, Cocktail shakers
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Re: Pilots
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I think that "missing" I was getting is actually a fuel problem. Maybe too lean? I crank the throtle and it starts skipping/missing about 1/2 throttle. No apparent air leaks. Clears up past that....3/4 to full. Since I don't have a seat, I haven't ridden yet but this is just reving the throttle in the driveway.
I have ordered the 45 pilots and not sure which direction to go with them. Leaning towards those since most peple with similar mods have them. I am also thinking of doing 1 shim and taking it from there. Hopefully I will have my seat by this weekend and I can do a real seat of the pants test.
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Re: Pilots
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http://www.gadgetjq.com/keihin_tuningparts.jpgCredit to my fellow Brett on the chart here. Should we have a bibliography on our post  So vacuum is ok. Obviously not main since cool past 3/4 throttle. Could be a shim would help or the pilot screw. My opinion put in the 45's and adjust the air screws accordingly. Then try the shims. Like a trial study. You should only change one variable at a time or you don't know what is helping or hindering. Really pilots are idle jets per chart. Does she back fire with the stutter or bog down. Backfire is lean and bogging is rich. Then there is "falling on her face" which is vacuum. I know really scientific there.
Blue/White, Battery Relocated, 155/45's, AI removed, Cocktail shakers
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Re: Pilots
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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Quote:
...I crank the throtle and it starts skipping/missing about 1/2 throttle. No apparent air leaks. Clears up past that....3/4 to full...
That is the mid range flat spot to a 'T'. Too lean in the midrange.
Blowing gravel off rural roads
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Re: Pilots
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
...Backfire is lean and bogging is rich...
Popping is lean (extended burn of lean mixture in pipes), hot pipe Backfire (BANG) is rich (explosive ignition in pipes).
"Bogging" could be either: it depends if the "bog" is actually "hesitation" (lean starvation) or "stutter" (rich overload).
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Re: Pilots
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Yes that would probably be a better definition than mine, Ken 
Blue/White, Battery Relocated, 155/45's, AI removed, Cocktail shakers
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Re: Pilots
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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It's all good, I know what you intended, just don't want anyone to take it out of context.
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Re: Pilots
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Hey knuckles-or James-how have things turned out with the 45's?
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Re: Pilots
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Hi Brett.
Thanks for all the info and for checking in.
I put in a set of 45's today just becuase that seems to be what the majority are using.
I have yet to receive my seat that I traded with some one for so I can't give a road test report yet. I promise to report back with my findings as soon as I can ride.
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Re: Pilots
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Cool! Keep us posted and hope your riding soon. I told you that seat was a priority
Blue/White, Battery Relocated, 155/45's, AI removed, Cocktail shakers
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Re: Pilots
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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don't forget to adjust the mixture screws after the pilot change.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Pilots
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Quote:
don't forget to adjust the mixture screws after the pilot change.
I have read about how you pull a plug wire and ground it(to what? do you put an old plug in there so it still gets spark?), adjust the idle so that it stays running, back the mixture screw in till it almost dies, turn it the other way till it almost dies then set it halfway between those two points, then repeat for the other side, all while trying not to get burned by the hot engine. Seems very tedious and difficult. 
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Re: Pilots
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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you can use a spark tester that is basicly a plug with a clip on the side to ground it. An old plug would do the trick just fine. Should have a fan blowing on the engine to help cool it. Don't turn the screw in until it almost dies, just until it starts to run a little rough then back it out until it starts to run rough set half way between the 2 points. So easy even a caveman can do it. You don't have to disconnect a plug wire if you don't want to but if you don't it makes it harder to tell when the side you are working starts to run rough.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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