 Hydrogen
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Fe Butt
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OP
Fe Butt
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Met a guy today at a car dealer who was very interesting. He was working on the owners car. He had installed a hydrogen fuel system on the guys car. He was saying he wants to be completely off the grid using this tech. in a few years. He also had a system on his personal vehicle he showed me. Fill it with water and it generates the hydrogen. The car doesn't run 100% off the hydrogen but the hydrogen gets injected into the intake and the computer he installs fools the cars computer and oxygen sensor so the amount of gas is cut back to match the power gained from the hydrogen. He claims he is getting a 50% to 60% mileage gain. I talked to the guy for an hour or so about it. I'm not convinced but it seems possible.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
I know a guy who was installing these systems a couple of years ago.
Seems that they worked OK for a while, then the engines started cratering.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Fe Butt
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OP
Fe Butt
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I was wondering about the detonation and the need to change the timing so much as well as differences in operating temperature and the long term impact of that.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,839 Likes: 3
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,839 Likes: 3 |
moving parts need lube 
ENJOY!!!!! NEWT!!!!!
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Saddle Sore
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Saddle Sore
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,268 Likes: 16 |
Quote:
moving parts need lube
Hey Newt, I think the boys were talking bout an engine 
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964
Stickman Yogi
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Stickman Yogi
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964 |
I have a friend who's been trying to refine such a system for a few years now. He says it's really difficult to get around the oxygen sensor thing. At one point he was getting WORSE mileage because the sensor thought the engine was running too lean. He says (and I agree) it would be soooooo much easier to do on a pre-computer car with points and condenser and a carb and such. I would love to do something like that on my bike but it takes a lot of amperage to generate the hydrogen and our bikes don't have enough electrical power.
Live to love, love to live.
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62
Fe Butt
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OP
Fe Butt
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Keith I talked to this guy about the O2 sensor and he said he has no problem getting around that on most vehicles. Just certain cars like Saab he has trouble with. He changes the power going to the sensor to fool it into not thinking the exhaust is lean. He really seemed to know what he was talking about. What I think the result would be is a shorter engine life due to the hydrogen exploding rather than the much slower burn of the gasoline. I forget what the settings were but timing had to be changed quite a bit and that more violent detonation would beat up the bearings and pistons I would think. It may even burn valves due to the more lean burn. I don't know this to be true but it is what comes to mind.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964
Stickman Yogi
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Stickman Yogi
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964 |
That's interesting Ian. Your guy and my friend should hook up and swap information, although it sounds like the fella you met is a bit ahead of the game. Yeah I hear where you're coming from when it comes to being hard on engine components. More violent explosion, lean conditions... legitimate concerns I should think. Still though... it is so cool there are those that are willing to try the untried. Meanwhile, there's a lot of YT vids on the subject. Interesting as I say!
Live to love, love to live.
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 404
Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 404 |
My Grandfather had a coal fired water heater mounted on the mudguard/sill of his old Chevy when petrol was hard to get during the war.
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,457
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,457 |
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,459 Likes: 1
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,459 Likes: 1 |
Are you guys crazie, Have you seen the price of a bottle of water? its more than petrol.  Anyway, why not rip out your voltage regulator and connect the vent from your battery to the inlet manifold. 
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62
Fe Butt
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OP
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62 |
That system isn't what this guy is doing Lonzo. It has similarities but not the same. He has some other electronics on his that he makes and there is another canister that holds the water. I was watching him work on the Saab and he was changing resistance and a few settings to fool the cars computer and O2 sensor. Some of the components look the same though.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,457
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,457 |
When I first found that site a couple of years ago, they didn't have kits. All they were selling were instructions like you describe. Had to adjust settings while monitoring head temperature, etc. I bought it, but never built the system because they recommended changing the valves to stainless steel, like it was no big deal. May try it if I ever pick up an old carb truck.
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 950
Banned
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Banned
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 950 |
They tested a system like that on mythbusters and it was useless.The one they had didnt produce enough hydrogen to do a thing.
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
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New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
Hydrogen doesn't naturaly exist on Earth as a free element. A bottle of it is very expensive, because it's expensive to produce, even compared with oil at $88 barrel.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 593
Adjunct
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Adjunct
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I fail to see where the energy is coming from. If water is the only source of hydrogen then the energy required to separate the hydrogen and oxygen with electricity is equal to the energy you get when you burn it. That is the theory. The only problem is that the conversion steps are never ideal. Therefore by converting water to hydrogen and oxygen using electricity and then burning the hydrogen and oxygen you would end up with less energy then if you just use the electricity directly.
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
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New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
Correct! T Boone Pickens was pushing H decades ago before he got on the wind bandwagon. If I remember correctly the H was a by product of oil refining.
Interestingly I just read on AutoGreen that in states like California the electric miles of a Chev Volt cost more than the gasoline miles.
The only way to get off the Grid is walk or ride a bicycle.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62
Fe Butt
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OP
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
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I had always read that it took more energy than you get with these systems. But then basicly running off of gas with the hydrogen mix added creating the hydrogen with the alternator seemed it might be able to effect the mileage. I have done the school science experiment with a battery and a copper and a zink bar hooked to a small battery to create the 2 gasses. It isn't a fast process but given more power I wasn't sure if it could be done faster, more power and more plates = more gases. Everything I ever read about this has pointed to it not being feasible.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,477
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
Joined: Jun 2005
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Okay, perhaps the problem in your experiment was that you were using zink. The process may have produced more hydrogen had you used zinc... 
JB
"Long live the Duck Force!"
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
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New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
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I think these exercises are very interesting, thanks for your original post. I guess my real point is that all these "new" tech ideas are all just old tecnologies that couldn't compete with gasoline or coal. I'm all for private research though.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 593
Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 593 |
Quote:
Interestingly I just read on AutoGreen that in states like California the electric miles of a Chev Volt cost more than the gasoline miles.
Not only is it more expensive in a lot of places, it is also not as "green" in a lot of places. In states where the major source of electricity is coal burning power plants electric cars are worse for the environment then gas.
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,164 Likes: 1
Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,164 Likes: 1 |
Quote:
I think these exercises are very interesting, thanks for your original post. I guess my real point is that all these "new" tech ideas are all just old tecnologies that couldn't compete with gasoline or coal. I'm all for private research though.
Quote:
Quote:
Interestingly I just read on AutoGreen that in states like California the electric miles of a Chev Volt cost more than the gasoline miles.
Not only is it more expensive in a lot of places, it is also not as "green" in a lot of places. In states where the major source of electricity is coal burning power plants electric cars are worse for the environment then gas.
Most of the "greenies" are more concerned with the end result (using electricity or hydrogen) than with the entire process (cost or enviromental impact) of creating hydrogen, electricity or bio-fuels.
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964
Stickman Yogi
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Stickman Yogi
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964 |
Quote:
Most of the "greenies" are more concerned with the end result (using electricity or hydrogen) than with the entire process (cost or enviromental impact) of creating hydrogen, electricity or bio-fuels.
Have to agree with you there!
Live to love, love to live.
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
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New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
I think "Greenies" mean well, but most lack understanding basic economic and scientic realities. The reality is that civilizations naturally become more green as they progess. Imagine the polution if all the households in North America still burnt coal or wood for heat, less than a century ago they did.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
The technology has to start somewhere. Remember cell phones that you had to carry the battery with a shoulder strap, and they held a charge for about twenty minutes? And all they did was phone calls.
I think that my Droid X is a tad more advanced.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
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New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
Great example of market driven progress. The only advantage of the original cell phones and the ones about the size of a shoe were that they were hard to lose. I lose about 3 phones a year.
Your great city is also a great example of the market giving consumers great choices in entertainment and places to stay.
Last edited by MACMC; 11/14/2010 4:42 PM.
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,425
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,425 |
Anyone wishing to see a LONG article, (that cost me $100.00 BTW) PM me and send it to ya. Now there is a BIG cottage industry for this. Including the O2 sensors moded, etc... For bigger engines they have made 6 and 8 packs of jars. Tested one in a diesel big rig. One of the guys who worked with me in Fl had one installed in his SUV. It was a double bubbler system. I’ll try and get him on FB and see how it’s been working out for him. I’m willing to share the original stuff i paid for and Ill copy and paste some of the stuff I keep getting in my mail as to the upgrades of kits. This company addresses Myth Busters and says they deliberately failed. One other guy challenged Popular Science and they declined to pony up. MB does live on sponsored dollars and the auto industry likes to advertise on there. Soooo, who can be sure? Who remembers the Helmet test Motorcyclist Magizene did on DOT V/S Snell? They did a real good test, and prooved some 50 dollar helmets faired better than the OMG its high Dollar brands. The edditor (Mitch Bohem) stated in his greeting page that they were asked not to release the names of the "boutique" brands by said brands or they would pull their adds. PROPS TO MITCH he said go ahead and pull, were publishing correct info.  OK im off my soap box. Cheers! 
Mal: "Y'all see the man hanging out of the spaceship with the really big gun?{ref, Jayne} Man's lookin' to kill some folk. So really, it's his will y'all should worry about thwarting."
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,302
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,302 |
there were posts about this a couple of years ago. here is a site with links, some guys sell you systems and another shows you how to build them. I don't know if it is the same link as posted earlier but this is a list of other links http://waterpoweredcar.com/watergroups.html
2006 neon blue speedmaster
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62
Fe Butt
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OP
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
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I can tell you that what MB did was nothing at all like what the guy I was talking to did. I saw the one on his own SUV and the one on the car dealers own Saab. There were major components missing on the show and it wasn't hooked up the same way. I saw the MB episode and I have to say they are either not smart enough to do it (don't think so) were given wrong info, or deliberately failed.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,730 Likes: 5
Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,730 Likes: 5 |
I think the most efficient way to run a vehicle is diesel power. Think about an electric car (like the Volt) with a small diesel motor under the hood that will run for days on a tank of fuel, linked to an electric generator that actually supplies the energy used to move the car. Exact same set up as what freight trains use.
Always remember to be yourself. Unless you suck. Then pretend to be someone else.
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964
Stickman Yogi
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Stickman Yogi
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 12,964 |
Quote:
I think the most efficient way to run a vehicle is diesel power. Think about an electric car (like the Volt) with a small diesel motor under the hood that will run for days on a tank of fuel, linked to an electric generator that actually supplies the energy used to move the car. Exact same set up as what freight trains use.
Hmmmm, food for thought!
Live to love, love to live.
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62
Fe Butt
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OP
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
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some heavy equipment run that way too
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,425
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,425 |
My stuff came from Water4Gas.com
I may have wasted the 100 bucks,, but if I get ambitious,, I'll try it. I just dont want to mess up a 08 F150 thats a new to me vehicle.
Mal: "Y'all see the man hanging out of the spaceship with the really big gun?{ref, Jayne} Man's lookin' to kill some folk. So really, it's his will y'all should worry about thwarting."
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
Yeah Dave, as demand increases I think we'll start seeing new concepts like that as well as a refinement of the current hybrids that will make them much more efficient.
Right now many gas and diesel cars get significantly better mileage than most hybrids and are much less complicated, thanks in part to C.A.F.E. standards imposed by the federal government.
But expect that to change as the technology grows.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 593
Adjunct
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Adjunct
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 593 |
2 H2O + energy <-----> 2 H2 + O2
If you start with water you will be putting in electrical power to convert water to hydrogen and oxygen. When you burn hydrogen and oxygen you get out the same amount of energy. Therefore the optimal amount of energy you can obtain is the same amount of energy you put in. However, and this is the important part, no conversion is 100% (for example the most efficient 4 stroke internal combustion has a thermal conversion of 43% wiki).
You are converting the water into hydrogen and oxygen ultimately from gas (gas converted to mechanical converted to electrical converted to chemical (H2) converted to mechanical) with each conversion being substantially less than 100% efficient. In addition these systems are not green since they rely upon burning fossil fuel to create the hydrogen.
These systems cannot work.
Now if you are obtaining hydrogen from another source then it is possible to make the system greener since you can use hydro-electric for example.
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62
Fe Butt
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OP
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62 |
The guy I was talking to wasn't looking to be green but rather to stick it to the oil guys and buy as little gas and oil as possible.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8
New Tires
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New Tires
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 7,028 Likes: 8 |
Tell him if he really wants to stick it to those big oil guys, he should live in a cave, barehandedly kill wild animals for food and clothing and walk every where he goes. That will show them!
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
H. L. Mencken
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62
Fe Butt
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OP
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
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Darn inconvenient though.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62
Fe Butt
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OP
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,225 Likes: 62 |
I just saw an Exxon Mobil commercial talking about Hydrogen and how a hydrogen plant used to be huge and how they kept getting smaller and smaller. An then finally an onboard hydrogen generator and how much it would reduce emissions and increase mileage.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Hydrogen
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,335
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,335 |
The only way I see Hydrogen being viable (and greener) is if you generate the Hydrogen using Solar or Wind power. Any other way you are just transferring the source of the pollution from one location (cars tail pipe) to another (coal, oil power plant). Basically the same thing is true for an electric car.
Years ago (early 1980's) guys were installing water injection systems in their cars and reporting a 10% - 20% increase in gas mileage. When I lived in Anaheim, CA a couple of guys I worked with did this. Another co-worker had a early 60's Mustang that would run on Gasoline or Propane. He keep two 20 pound Propane tanks in the truck. He had a switch under the dash for switching from gas to propane (he could only switch with the engine off). It was a very simple system that allowed him to use either type of fuel.
Tom
Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin, US author, diplomat, inventor, physicist, politician, & printer (1706 - 1790)
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