 Trusting Supposedly TechnicallyTrustworthy Sources
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First off, read this when you have a spare hour up your sleeve. It's a lengthy explanation of the importance of doing your own research when modifying or changing from stock components to after market ones. It started as a reply to the thread in the Accessories Category on Progressive 440's, when some were unsure there was different rated springs for these shocks. Anyway, realising I'd written almost an essay, I decided to put this thread in to explain mine and other member's experiences in trying to access quality info. So first off, for those who know their stuff and have been around for a while, I won't insult you so please move onto another thread. If I can demonstrate to even one or two newbies how easy it is to take advice from supposedly legitimate and well ejacated (it's a joke Joyce) sources that may jeopardise their safety, then read on. One suggestion though, go and boil the jug and get a coffee first.  I hope you find it interesting and informing. OK, Whilst we all realise I'm happy with my Hagon Nitros (as are others), as a second choice I'd be more than happy to have a set of Progressive 440's. There have just been too many people on here who's technical expertise I respect who have em. Mind you, I'd want to pick my own spring rating  LOL What I do find hard to believe is, some have not been aware there was a choice of various rated springs for the Progressive 440's. I mean to think one springs could fit all such as a 60kg female and then just by adjusting the preload, be able to handle a two up couple who weigh say for example 220kg.  . It's just a not technical reality. Obviously there has been confusion and it may very well be due to poorly trained or inexperienced salesmen working behind the counter or on the phone, or like in Hagon's tech dept., they either didn't do their testing job properly in the first place or it may have been purely a misprint. Now I don't want people to confuse what may appear to be that Hagon supply inferior shocks cos I know and so do many others that this is not the case, but with them fitted with the incorrectly rated springs they are at the very least crap and on the other end of the scale, even dangerous. In fact I hit a pothole with the wrong rated springs and thought I may have damaged my back further. I know that's obvious now but does an inexperienced sales person?  My point is, when we do changes to our bikes, we aren't intentialy putting ourselves in danger. Sounds obvious but there is a lot of misinformation out there and we all have a responsibility to adequately research every detail of our changes to ensure, in this case, our suspension is performing better than the rubbish oem units we're replacing. Pretty important stuff when you think about it, both financially and safety wise anyway. To give you an example, many of us on here may remember the saga me and other Nitro buyers had to go through to try and convince Hagon their specs were out when they were suggesting 20kg rated springs for a 90kg person. One of the points I am trying to make though is, I would have thought those with Progressives who weren't aware their preferred choice of springs came with various rating might have asked themselves "why aren't we offered or asked about our normal riding weight so the distributor can select the most appropriately rated spring for my purposes? I mean, Hagon does?" Which brings me to the importance of doing your own research. I remember for instance being told by Shutterbug (Don) who being a retired college professor obviously knows his research, right? Right. Well during his research for the best shocks he could find he happened to come across the US Hagon Rep and was told "in a nutshell", spring rating is subjective to the rider. What  What are you blo#dy well talking about says Staffo and obviously Don? This isn't some mamby pamby, "it feels good I think" arrangement. This is a science and is quantitative, not subjective. I honestly was shocked and I couldn't believe my ears. If you normally ride by yourself and you weigh whatever kg's or lbs, THERE IS a particular spring rated for that weight, and if you go two up, the pre-load will generally be adjusted to still be able to accommodate that extra weight. But then we have the leading distributor not just in a 2 horse town but potentially in the biggest global market informing a prospective buyer this type of cr#p. I'm still trying to get my head around it. No wonder we had a global financial crash if these are the sort of people running the show. Springs are Quote:
rated
, that's it.
What I'm getting at is, It's become pretty obvious that the US distributor for Hagon was giving incorrect advice and it's not only a "not getting what you paid and expected problem, it's a safety problem. The saddest part of this episode is "how many so called happy customers (see full version of his reply to Don's question below if you like" are riding bikes with bad suspension???
No wonder so many people on here have bagged out Hagon as an option, and how much have Hagon lost in revenue due to his lack of training which Hagon also have to take responsibility for too.
Btw, we on here were able to convince Hagon in GB to actually change their specs but by that stage how many riders had bought and think they are on safely rated shocks?
So, I'd just prefer to make the point that like Don, you really do need to not just assume what a salesmen (or company) has said is gospel and the importance of good research and asking questions.
We do have some of the most experienced self taught as well as properly trained mechanics on hand that if they don't know, they'll certainly try and find out for you, but in the first instance it's up to you to try and find out.
So first do you research and then back it up with a question on here if you aren't sure.
Anyway, for anyone that's interested in a good laugh, here's the US Hagon rep's reply to a question from Shutterbug. It just goes to show you can't always believe the so called GURUS cos someone said they were. 
Now here’s the email from Dave Quinn (the US Distributor for Hagon to Don (Shutterbug), after he questioned their suggestion that he believed the 20kg rated springs were not adequate for his weight:
Quote:
“Hagons’ Nitro spec for your Speedmaster is 18kg. We find most folks on this side of the Atlantic to be a bit bigger than the average English bloke, so we have supplied 20kg for the 10 or so pair of Nitros we’ve sold for this application, also for many of the standard Hagon twin shocks (which do not have the higher level of compression damping the Nitros have), the rest have been 23kg. Oddly enough, we were discussing whether to fit 18kg springs, given your solo loading, when your email about 26kg springs arrived.
Dave (Quinn) has also spoken to Hagons MD this morning about the Speedmaster spec - and they feel the requests for 26kg springs are isolated and not statistically significant, and they are not planning at the moment to reassess their specs for this bike. Please remember that ride quality is a VERY subjective thing; nobody’s assessment is incorrect, but one person’s opinion does not necessarily agree with another’s. We have many happy customers riding around on 20kg springs.
(now I'm getting scared cos unsuspecting riders are on bikes with shocks that are not rated to their weight. This has the potential for dangerous consequences - staffo.
Continuing on:
You have described your desire for a soft and plush ride- this seems incongruous with a request for 26kg springs, to say the least. 26kg is 148lb- this means, with two springs, you need a load of 300lbs to move the springs an inch, Our opinion is that fitting 26kg spring to your Speedmaster is going down the same road you’ve already travelled with Progressive...
(What??? - now the good bit which personally does my head in)
We have never before been asked for springs this heavy. We do not have the correct Nitro bodies in stock to supply with 26kg springs – this would be a special order, take 3-5 weeks to get here, and then postal time to you. One note- if you opt to specify your spring rate on special order shocks, we will NOT assume the expense of spring exchanges- we’ll happily do them, but you pay for them.â€
So, for a start his mentioning Quote:
We do not have the correct Nitro bodies in stock to supply with 26kg springs is blatantly wrong.
This too was verified by our own member Grzegorz when he received a reply from Hagon H.Q. in G.B.
Grzegorz said he was told "there is no different bodies for stiffer springs (as) all bodies are the same!!!!!!" He then went on to say "told him that I know people with similar body weight and they are happy with 26 kg springs and told him that someone in (the) states (wonder who that was) was asking about those springs and their rep said that different body is needed.......in the end he said thank you for report and (words to the effect) that when I called back they informed him they will change the ratings for blokes like us .....hopefully they will
Quote:
Well they did change their specs cos the Aus distributor emailed me to say just that. Amazing how between the 3 of us and one other member who's name escapes me at the moment, can get a company to admit their mistakes and change their specs from the advice of their customers.
To top it off, I then emailed the US Rep with this info and even then he said Quote:
Hello John,
Thanks for your input. I think you are referring to Hagons Speedmaster specs?
While we have had no complaints from our Speedmaster customers, we are very interested in any and all feedback.
Ride quality is a highly individual assessment, and there are no right or wrong answers- the only important issue is making each customer happy.
All the best,
What a load of shite. That is exactly how salesmen talk and quite frankly points out the importance of making sure via several sources, the accuracy of the information supplied.
Then to say if you opt to go down this path, you will have to pay expenses of changing springs via shipping etc. Geez, no wonder Don chose progressives and I don't blame him. The whole thing was a disgraceful example of complete incompetence. The ironic factor in all this is, the Nitro Units are brilliant but I have to admit, my trust in their advice has been given a belting.
Anyway, this whole saga still haunts me as you have to ask yourselves how many people are riding Hagon shocks on dangerously underated springs???
Apologies for this huge essay but I believe it needed to be said to point out the importance of making sure you do your own research and don't believe everyone just because they hold a title or talk as if they know their stuff. We know from these examples it's not always true.
staffo 
Staintune Pipes, K&N Pods, 45 pilots, TBS needles and 145 mains.
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Re: Trusting Supposedly TechnicallyTrustworthy Sources
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,537
Check Pants
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Check Pants
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I found Dave Quinn, the Hagon rep here to be pretty much clueless as to what spring options make sense for our bikes. My Hagons allowed my pipe tips to drag around every corner, and with more speed, alarmingly so. They never did get mine right, so I returned them, ate the multiple shipping charges and to add insult to my scrapped pipe tips, a "restocking charge" from Bellacorse.
No problems with my 440's, which are equipped with their heavier rate springs (I bought them used). Since I ride only solo now, I keep meaning to return them to Progressive for lighter weight springs.
Al
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Re: Trusting Supposedly TechnicallyTrustworthy Sources
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Joined: Aug 2009
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Thanks for that Staffo  , it should be pinned
Too old to die young, too ugly to leave a good looking corpse
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Re: Trusting Supposedly TechnicallyTrustworthy Sou
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Adjunct
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Adjunct
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Nicely summed up Staffo. I'll be in touch soon. Don
"You're a long time underground!"
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Re: Trusting Supposedly TechnicallyTrustworthy Sources
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Joined: May 2006
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
440's, which are equipped with their heavier rate springs
I have a pair of 440s with the lighter springs. I've been wanting heavier springs for a while now, and didn't know they existed until yesterday. I wonder how difficult it is to pull the shocks apart for a spring swap?
I wonder if we compressed the springs with some bar clamps, then held them compressed with heavy duty wire ties, would the tops screw right off to allow the springs to be freed? Could it be that "easy?"
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Re: Trusting Supposedly TechnicallyTrustworthy Sou
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Joined: Dec 2006
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Oil Expert
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OP
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Martin, you may be well surprised how easy it is if like Hagon it's simply knowing the knack of it. Not having examined the 440's of course I can't say but with mine screwing the preload to zilch and not being under compression is half the battle.
Btw guys, thanks for you words of encouragement. I felt like a bit of a dope being as long as it was but I did believe the points needed to be put out there for several reasons but predominantly to stress the safety factor and who knows, some of you guys may not have appreciated the true value of your 440's yet. I'm not by any stretch trying to make anyone feel like dopes or anything but we all deserve the best ride we can get on our bikes, and when it's finally dialled in it's just superb but more importantly safer.
Staffo
Staintune Pipes, K&N Pods, 45 pilots, TBS needles and 145 mains.
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Re: Trusting Supposedly TechnicallyTrustworthy Sou
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Wendy loves her Hagon shocks, fortunately I never dealt with the Hagon rep but I dealt with Bella Corse and gave them my riding conditions and average weight that her bike would be carrying and he fix me right up with a good set of shocks. I don't know if that would or would not have been the case if I had dealt with the Hagon rep though. It does make sense to me that it would be the reason others seem disappointed in Hagon though. As to being subjective, I do think to a certain extent it is subjective as a desired ride to one is not the desired ride to another. Some may want a stiffer ride than the next person. That isn't to say you can't go too far one way or the other.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Trusting Supposedly TechnicallyTrustworthy Sou
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I would suggest you were fortunate to have dealt with bellacorse cos you have always defended the ride of Wendy's bike. It would be very interesting to find out who other disatisfied customers did business with too. We must not forget though that it Was Hagon's tech dept that somehow got the ratings wrong in the first place and their somewhat dismissive nature initially of their customers findings. Perhaps the U.S rep was merely a symptom of Hagon's mistakes?
Staintune Pipes, K&N Pods, 45 pilots, TBS needles and 145 mains.
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Re: Trusting Supposedly TechnicallyTrustworthy Sources
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Check Pants
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Check Pants
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Wondered the same thing. I'd swap springs, but mine are black, so guessing that limits my swapping chances. Quote:
Quote:
440's, which are equipped with their heavier rate springs
I have a pair of 440s with the lighter springs. I've been wanting heavier springs for a while now, and didn't know they existed until yesterday. I wonder how difficult it is to pull the shocks apart for a spring swap?
I wonder if we compressed the springs with some bar clamps, then held them compressed with heavy duty wire ties, would the tops screw right off to allow the springs to be freed? Could it be that "easy?"
Al
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Re: Trusting Supposedly TechnicallyTrustworthy Sources
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 3,816
Freelance Jedi Knight
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Freelance Jedi Knight
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Quote:
Wondered the same thing. I'd swap springs, but mine are black, so guessing that limits my swapping chances.
Quote:
Quote:
440's, which are equipped with their heavier rate springs
I have a pair of 440s with the lighter springs. I've been wanting heavier springs for a while now, and didn't know they existed until yesterday. I wonder how difficult it is to pull the shocks apart for a spring swap?
I wonder if we compressed the springs with some bar clamps, then held them compressed with heavy duty wire ties, would the tops screw right off to allow the springs to be freed? Could it be that "easy?"
you need this 
coil spring compressor 
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Re: Trusting Supposedly TechnicallyTrustworthy Sou
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,248 Likes: 64
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,248 Likes: 64 |
Quote:
I would suggest you were fortunate to have dealt with bellacorse cos you have always defended the ride of Wendy's bike. It would be very interesting to find out who other disatisfied customers did business with too. We must not forget though that it Was Hagon's tech dept that somehow got the ratings wrong in the first place and their somewhat dismissive nature initially of their customers findings. Perhaps the U.S rep was merely a symptom of Hagon's mistakes?
I am not defending any mistakes Hagon may have made just that if they had gotten it right they seems a good shock. Maybe it was a fluke, I don't know since I haven't bought any since. Also don't know if Hagon got hers right or Mike at Bella Corse.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Trusting Supposedly TechnicallyTrustworthy Sou
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Joined: May 2007
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Stacka,
Thanks for posting this. I was going to go with the Nitros, even contacted the Dave Quinn folks. However, this is going to give me pause and perhaps I will look back at the Progressives.
Thanks again!!
Blue/White 2007 TBA, Thruxton needles, Unifilter, AI removed, Polaris Bellmouth, Bubs, Nology Coils/wires, Lightbar, Ricor Intiminators, Hagon Nitros, Tall Sissy Bar w/luggage rack, Dart flyscreen & Lowers. 130 Mains, TrueGel Battery MG12-BS.
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Re: Trusting Supposedly TechnicallyTrustworthy Sou
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Joined: Dec 2006
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Oil Expert
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Steve, my intentions were to point out the importance of doing your research and not just believing "a distributors" supposed experience with the products they are selling.
As far as the Nitros are concerned, we on here were able to convince Hagon to listen to their customers and subsequently change the specs. Then by passing on this info to the distributors they could then recommend the right spings according to the particular customers weight.
I mean, it was the attitude as per the email info I provided that was the point I was trying to make and by no means the quality of the Nitros. Simply put, Hagon have a top notch product in the Nitros but not with the incorrectly rated springs.
Don't forget, we've only just read that there have been Progressive customers that weren't even informed there were different spring ratings. So we can see from both examples that whilst both manufacterers may have top quality shocks, they are only as good if the owner can adjust the preload (research) to suit the weight the bike is loaded with.
I mean, at least Hagon have tried to tailor make the shocks they've sold to the customer. It's just that somewhere in the mix they got the Kg ratings incorrect.
So, you can go down the Progressive route if you want and as I've already said I'm certain they are a top rate shock, but just make sure whoever you buy them from asks you how much weight you generally load onto your bike. If they don't ask this question then you'll have to ask yourself whether your shocks are being tailor made for your purposes.
At least I know Hagon have always attempted to do this, it's just their charts stating what kg rated springs best suited to an individuals weight has been out of whack.
In other words, unless Hagon have now changed their specks, I'd have come to one of two conclusions:
1. They seriously cannot get their sh*t together or,
2. They are of the opinion that the majority of their customers haven't got a clue and if after listening to the U.S. Distributor, why wouldn't they think that.
One final thing. I'm of the opinion both the front and rear suspension work together to give you the best ride possible, so whilst buying rears will without doubt improve your ride provided your preload is correctly adjusted, if you also get the front forks sorted, your bike will be an absolute joy to ride under any conditions so that you'll be riding not just a cruiser but also a tourer. I'm now convinced after many an hour tweaking, I've found that balance, and that's predominantly with Hagon shocks and springs as well as the intimnators.
Good luck but don't right off Hagon without first asking some questions as part of your research.
Staffo
Staintune Pipes, K&N Pods, 45 pilots, TBS needles and 145 mains.
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Re: Trusting Supposedly TechnicallyTrustworthy Sou
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Joined: Apr 2007
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Adjunct
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Adjunct
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Interesting post Staffo. maybe you should edit it and share with Dave Quinn so he can get up to speed on his own products and which springs are best for our bikes. I actually think I sold a BMW to him years ago and he seemed like a pretty nice guy. Maybe he just needs the expert advice that BA.com offers.
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Re: Trusting Supposedly TechnicallyTrustworthy Sou
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Joined: May 2007
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Staffo,
Thanks. I sent you an e-mail with some more questions about the Nitros.
Blue/White 2007 TBA, Thruxton needles, Unifilter, AI removed, Polaris Bellmouth, Bubs, Nology Coils/wires, Lightbar, Ricor Intiminators, Hagon Nitros, Tall Sissy Bar w/luggage rack, Dart flyscreen & Lowers. 130 Mains, TrueGel Battery MG12-BS.
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Re: Trusting Supposedly TechnicallyTrustworthy Sou
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,150
Oil Expert
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OP
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Perhaps I may have been a bit harsh on the fella but nice guy or not, when it comes to safety I'm not too tolerant a bloke. Might have something to do with my Army and Fire Brigade careers. I did say though that Hagon also need to take responsibility given they are the mob who had the specs incorrect in the first place. When Dave Quinn talked about preload like it was a subjective type opinion though, that's what did my head in most.
In saying all this I'm sure Hagon will get this thing right, perhaps we can call it a glitch in the system and hopefully all will be good from now on. In fact I'm starting to hear good reports back already.
Staintune Pipes, K&N Pods, 45 pilots, TBS needles and 145 mains.
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