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I personally think that is one butt ugly motorcyle

Eeh! Whadda YOU know, Ron???!!!

(Street-trackers RULE, dude!!!)

So there are no ugly street trackers?

Well, that one ain't PERFECT here mind ya(well, mainly 'cuz it's a V-twin and not a TRIUMPH vertical twin, you understand )...BUT, it CERTAINLY ain't "ugly" EITHER, my friend!!!

Ya seeeeee, maybe the tail piece isn't quite "right", and I'm not exactly crazy about where they've placed that external oil-cooler on that baby, but NO...there's NO WAY in you-know-where that THAT baby is "ugly"!!!

(I think you done need some glasses there boy!!!)

that xr1200 has to be one of the most atrocious motorcyles i have ever seen!

Well jake ol' boy, like I was kind'a sayin' to Ron here...I COULD maybe find ya the address of a good OPTOMETRIST there in Dayton Ohio IF you'd like!!!

(I mean, that IS the wonder of this here INTERNET nowdays ya know....all's ya gotta do is type into it "yellowpages.com" and VOILA!!!!)

You are right Jake, its just ugly

Ya knows guys, even though there's QUITE a distance between San Antonio and Dayton, you guys MIGHT still be able to find one o' them group discount rates for those bifocals you both appear to need!!!

I even think it's kind of ugly, and I'm restoring a Honda Dream!

Okay! NOW there's TWO things very VERY recently that I just CAN'T believe...

ONE is that anybody with any sense of motorcycle history would think that the XR1200 is "ugly".

And the OTHER is that MORON of a home plate umpire in this Dodgers-Phillies playoff game that's goin' on right now, WHO evidently doesn't know what constitutes the friggin' STRIKE ZONE in BASEBALL!!! AND this moron ALSO hasn't been CONSISTENT in his calls ALL friggin' night EITHER!!!

(yep...I'm thinkin' that THAT guy just might want to join your little group here and see if HE can maybe get that DISCOUNT for those glasses TOO, fellas!!!!)

I would say he is very blind to allow the Dodgers to be up.

Yep! Maybe so, Ron.

(AND....I'm ALSO thinkin' here that that umpire might possibly ride a Victory motorcycle, and thinks that the VISION is "pretty"!!!)

WHICH, come to THINK of it, IS kind'a ironically NAMED, huh?!!!

(OH, and BTW....GOOOOO DODGERS!!!)

My condolences to you Mr. Dwight. It was a strange game indeed.

Ooooooooh!!! Ooooooooh! I'm dyin' here!!! I'M DYIN' HERE!!!

What a lousy friggin' finish!!!!

But GEEEEE, thanks Ron...THAT sure helped!!!

(congrats...and yeah, what a game alright...and that Yankees-Angels game earlier tonight was no slouch either, ya know...I guess I'll have to take some comfort in at least those "Yankee Killars" beatin' that "Evil Empire" tonight, huh?!)

I was watching from the kitchen turning out the lights when it happened. He tagged it clean though. It was a good hit.

3-1 is tough to overcome.

John Bloor doesn't even like motorcycles let alone ride them.

Nobody was ever prevented from buying a quirky, interesting and street-able bike. They were available all over the U.S. every single day for 2 decades. Nobody bought them.

Now I am not trying to disrespect the Buell you own but they just didn't sell. I do appreciate that you have enjoyed your Buell bikes over the years. But: If nobody bought them they did not make a profit. Its really simple.

Things that don't make money go away.

(prologue: I'm glad to see we're back on topic again, as this "re-correction" back to it will take my mind off that friggin' Phillies' walk-off win last night!!!!.....)

Well Jaeger, I think you've certainly stated your opinion in SOMEWHAT of a reasonable manner alright, HOWEVER...here's a few things I think you should consider regarding some of your conclusions:

First, Buell motorcycles have never been wholeheartedly endorsed or universally praised by ANY of the motorcycle press corps whose job it has always been to evaluate and compare all the different mototcycles of comparable genre. Nope...almost NEVER. There were always viewed by those motojournalist as somewhat "quirky" pieces...not exactly "ringing endorsements" I must say! AND, the public at large usually pretty much seemed to agree with those assessments also, and pretty much exhibited those thoughts by not purchasing enough of them to help keep Erik's venture alive.

AND secondly once again, while I have plainly stated in this thread that yes, I also think H-D should have financed building more modern engines to put into Erik's frame designs(which BTW, innovative frames were his main focus and point of expertise), I once again think you overlook Harley's MAIN and OVERWHELMING customer base here.

Now, with the POSSIBLE exception of the V-Rod, Harley REALLY hasn't been in the business of selling "performance-based" motorcycles to their customers since they debuted the Sportster back in 1957! And THAT was ONLY by necessity in order to compete against the british motorcycle industry's successful invasion into the american marketplace with their lighter and better handling motorcycles during that time.

But SINCE that era, times changed considerably as you know, and now the japanese and italians have become dominate in this marketplace IF someone wishes to purchase a great handling, fast, and OVERALL well engineered(and not "quirky") performance motorcycle.

In that same time, Harley and the british industry(or at least what's become left of it nowdays) has seemed to regulate themselves to more of a "Heritage" or retro-defined presences, and have made almost ALL of their considerable money from that market.

Heck dude! Go to DAYTONA during "Bike Week" and witness all the thousands and thousands of Harley riders, BOTH "the RUBs" AND the folks who actually love motorcycles and have been riding for YEARS, and see how many of 'em actually plunk down their money to go watch the Daytona 200 race anymore!!!

There are very very FEW of 'em who do THAT ya know.

And sooooo, once again, you can not blame Harley-Davidson for the lack of interest that many many AMERICAN motorcycle riders seem to have about the genre of motorcycles OTHER THAN "cruisers".

Good points there, Thanassis. However, I wonder how well it really would have functioned OR how extensive an independent dealer network could have been if Erik had decided to go that route instead of biggybacking with Harley all these years? My guess is he wouldn't have even made it half as long as he did, and thus probably never would have even made it to the point of getting those Rotax engines and producing that latest and best sportbike of his that he did.

But once again, I have to stress in this argument that the "general lack" of interest always STARTS with the customer and their buying habits. And so in a manner of speaking, my guess is that Harley dealerships ALSO didn't support or push this part of their inventory because there really was little interest in these(and sorry, but I'm going to use that word again) 'quirky' but very interesting motorcycles to begin with by the purchasing public.

i have to agree that overall Buell was never a good performer,sales wise or machine preformance wise.in all honesty HD riders/consumers have never truly been concerned with performance,looking at how most view the V-Rod is a perfect example of that.most HD riders treat the V-Rod as a step child because it's liquid cooled and looks modern.that is why i don't think the xr1200 will last long,it's aimed at a Buell-esque consumer.they want to draw racing and performance oriented riders,people who already know that HD doesn't build good machines in those categories,and IT WILL NEVER appeal to HD traditionalists,just like the V-Rod hasn't and the Buells didn't.

There was mention that HD didn't want to use the Vrod engine in the Buell because it might detract from Vrod sales. But, using a much modified Sportster engine didn't seem to hurt piglet sales.
Now, I get the impression that Buell is, in some ways, much like Ransom E Olds, maker of Oldsmobile and, later, REO cars and trucks. It was a similar situation except that Oldsmobile production was not stopped by GM after buying them out, they just mistreated Olds to the point that he quit. I would not be at all surprised if Buell were to hang with HD for a while, then light out on his own after developing a new design based on the Vrod or maybe even a Triumph engine.

I just think its so much more basic but all theory is good as we are not in the board rooms.

Folks who own sport bikes are not heavily branded and in most cases tend to be younger with higher IQs. They look at torque and HP ratios, center of gravity, appearance, cost, dealer networking, then image.

In short they are a sharper client. Then they go out and do wheelies at 100 on the highway.

Anyhow, they were comparing a 1000cc Buell with a 1000cc Honda or GSX-R or R1. After about 2 seconds the sport bike buyer realized this Buell is not a 10 second machine and kinda looks funny compared to my buddies bikes. Why would I want to look funny and go slower for the same money?

They didn't want them. They used to have bike night across from a HD dealership where I lived. 100s of sport bikes and the only Buells were across the street in the window.

Ha! aircraft carriers

you're right Ron.you have to compare apples to apples,and when you do Buell's performance doesn't stack up.

Maybe its a matter of geography probably. A fabulous bike " Honda 919" lots of thump and good looks. They couldn't sell them here so discontinued them in 07.

They sold like hotcakes in Europe.

Yep, aircraft carriers or destroyers, no in between here.

Oddly enough HD keeps making a few "sportier" bikes then killing them before they really take off and end up make cult classics out of them. I think Buell will be the same way. Look at the cafe racer sportsters, from the 70s, the FXRSP and really all the fxrs from 82-93, and the lastest bike to grab me the FXDXT, which is a dyna with a sport rake and cafe fairing, they only made for 3 years.
I think the issue goes right back to the dealer. I remember walking into a dealer to look at buell's they where hidden in the back next to last years sleds. And the "salesmen" didn't know a thing. Kept trying to get me to look at a "bagger which is what people want these days".
Harley needs to rein in the huge number of similar models in one family evidently the salesmen can't keep track of them.

Some more good points there.

I do know what you were saying about the "streetfighter" thing, as yeah, I know a large part of Buell's model line were in fact in that category, but they also did have a considerable line of sportbikes also...especially his last and perhaps best bikes, the 1125R and 1125CR, which I think you said earlier you considered owning at one time.

BTW Thanassis, this part of your last posting reminded me of somethin' I believe I've forgotten to mention to anyone around here....

Quote:

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I still think it's possible, if someone picks up the Buell pieces.

---

A few weeks after I returned to the states from Greece, I had the pleasure to meet and talk with Stuart Garner, the new owner of Norton Motorcycles. I met him at South Bay Triumph the day after he and Matt Capri returned from the Bonneville Salt Flats in their quest to establish a few new records with some of Matts higher-performace built Bonnies, AND with Garner's Norton Rotary bike.

Stuart and I talked at a length of about 30 minutes about his acquisition of Norton from Kenny Dreer, and also his business model to revive Norton once again, among many other topics related to the field of motorcycles.

Matt is now supposedly inked in as his main american distributor for this Norton venture, BTW.

Stuart's idea is to keep his production numbers reasonably small and basically just to sell them in his home market of england right out of his factory, and with basically no dealer network over there. He seems to think that this is the best way to be successful in this smaller "niche" motorcycle market.

And so, I wonder if Erik Buell would or could restructures his company in such or similar a manner, if perhaps he could then make a good of it once again?

(whatcha think???)

I think Stuart's got a good idea with Norton... keeping it small for now with direct factory sales on the home front. Norton's starting to generate excitement here in Canada with the appointment of a new Canadian distributor. I've been in contact with Peter Howes, President of Norton Motorcycles Canada Ltd. who seems pretty positive about the direction things might go with Norton. Peter had this to say... "Please don't expect to hear too much until late in November when I'll provide an update about shows, product availability and hopefully we will be close to launching our own website." Sounds like things are a ways off yet.

However, I hear the new Commando 961 SE is a pretty exciting bike and I do hope they make a go of it all. Hey, maybe I can get one before Jay Leno what with all my connections and stuff!!

Yep Keith, I'd sure like to see him make a success of the 961.

I might have told you this before, but a few years back when Kenny Dreer brought some of his first non-running prototypes of that bike to Laguna Seca Raceway in Monterey CA during the World Superbike Races, I got to not only talk to Dreer, but I also was able to sit on one of those 961s too...and MAN was I hooked!

I think they are some of the best lookin' bikes I've seen in some time! They just look cleanly purposeful in a modern sort of way, and yet also have this kind of muscularly retro look about 'em too.

Nope... didn't know you had a chance to sit on one of 'em 961s, but it was pretty dreamy was it? They sure look the part of a bike that means business while maintaining a whole lot o' sex appeal. I think I'm getting a bit hooked on the feeling of owning one when they become available.

Now if Buell coulda generated a bit of excitement amongst the world cycling community.... but that's a whole different set of circumstances.