 I really need help on this one!! Carb issue?
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Quick bacground of the issue so far... Changed plugs a while back and have been running on a 120 main, 45 pilot, 3 turns out, short TORs and Uni filter all rubbers and baffles in airbox removed. Bike has been running stunningly until now  >>>>>>> Went for a ride, filled up at a different petrol (gas) station to normal (might be a red herring!) and rode home... after 15 minutes of riding stopped at some lights and as I went to pull away got a hiccup through the carbs a small misfire and away we went, running along fine at over 15mph. The hiccup and mis fire got worse as we travelled but only at pull off... Got home and my first thought was crap in the fuel, so dropped the carbs, emptied cleaned and re fitted same problem. took carbs off again, removed all pilots mains and anything else I could and gave a thorough clean, refitted went for a ride same problem. Carbs off again and this time I spotted a pin hole in the diaphragm... ahaaaa says I .. gotcha!! WRONG Bought new slide and diaphragm and put it all back together and went for a ride.. same problem! I am now on my 5th carb stripdown, just put the carbs back on and fired it up.. tickover is fine, revving is fine, but from tickover to WOT there is a SINGLE pop back through the carbs, I can feel the pop about 4 foot away from the airbox... So, any gurus out there can help a NEEDY biker... its been suggested that the shims may need doing, (tight) ?? Thanks guys for reading.. if you got this far, any help THANKS!!
Last edited by TrOjAn; 07/31/2009 5:12 AM.
TrOjAn
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 Re: I really need help on this one!! Carb issue?
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Sounds very similar to a problem i had. Turned out to be a coil failing.
Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come; He will guide you in all truth:
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Re: I really need help on this one!! Carb issue?
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I had something similar riding last year. Did you check the rubber nipples that block the AI vacuum? I carry a spare set around just for that reason...
later, Tom.
But, what do I know?
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Re: I really need help on this one!! Carb issue?
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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Quote:
I had something similar riding last year. Did you check the rubber nipples that block the AI vacuum? I carry a spare set around just for that reason...
later, Tom.
Ditto on the squirrel condoms. Even a minute crack will cause enough vacuum leak to cause little backfires. Just replace them all if in doubt at all.
A word to the wise is not necessary. It is the stupid ones who need the advice.
Pat
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Re: I really need help on this one!! Carb issue?
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Well Ill go try everything... Im climbing the walls here in desperation...
Keep the ideas coming, Ill try ANYTHING.. once its diagnosed fixing will be easy but I cant get my head round it.. general opinion is an air leak so Ill go triple check all.. again!!
TrOjAn
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Re: I really need help on this one!! Carb issue?
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Worn Saddle
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While we're on the issue of rubber, have you removed the manifold rubbers? I ask because there's a definite front and rear and top and bottom and they're quite easy to reverse. That clams the seal and you'll get the same results as a rotted squirrel condom. http://www.bonnevilleamerica.com/forums/...part=2&vc=1To remove the coil from the equation you could swap the coils side to side...that is: swap both the input and the output side to side and see if the problem travels left to right.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: I really need help on this one!! Carb issue?
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Ok, so far since posting, I changed the plugs (in case), taken rocker cover off and checked the gaps, all in tolerence, coils are off and Ill swap them over but I dont see it being that,.. the problem is the back fire through the airbox.
Tomorrow Ill put the cover back on, do the coils and Im going to put a shim or 2 under the needles in case its fuel.. the plugs look like its well lean..
Keep up the ideas guys..
TrOjAn
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Re: I really need help on this one!! Carb issue?
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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Good troubleshooting technique is to try doing one mod at a time then test the bike. If you do several, you will not know what it was.
A word to the wise is not necessary. It is the stupid ones who need the advice.
Pat
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Re: I really need help on this one!! Carb issue?
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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TrOjAn, listen to the man.
One thing at a time; then button it up and test. You can't know if you're making progress or adding to the fire if you take a shotgun approach.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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FIXED? Subject to test ride
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For those kind enough to offer help just thought I would post and let you know I am 99% sure its fixed.. I have to test ride the bike when it stops raining but it sure sounds like the"old" bike before this issue.. Took the carbs off again, and did a full strip.. the only thing I think I spotted was the small diaphragm I think is an accelerator pump? might be wrong, but that has the smallest of holes and I am pretty sure it was not clear.. anyway I blew it all out and just started the bike and the pops gone, no backfire at all now.. I put a shim under the needle to richen it up a bit and once I ride it Ill check plugs and see if its OK or needs taking out again. Thanks again.. hope this will be the end of this problem.. if not, Ill be back 
TrOjAn
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 Re: FIXED? Subject to test ride
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3/4 Throttle
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3/4 Throttle
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Here's hoping you've sorted it, Terry.
With your setup, those mains are far too small. Aim for a 128 minimum, although I'd go 130 to begin.
Also, your pilots may be too big. Those more knowledgeable should be able to advise.
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Re: FIXED? Subject to test ride
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I used Pats jetting calc to get jet sizes.. it states that TORs and a UNI .45 pilots and 119 mains.. I am actually running on 120 mians, 45 pilots with one shim. so in theory RICH
TrOjAn
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Re: FIXED? Subject to test ride
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Loquacious
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Quote:
I used Pats jetting calc to get jet sizes.. it states that TORs and a UNI .45 pilots and 119 mains.. I am actually running on 120 mians, 45 pilots with one shim. so in theory RICH
You might want to recheck that.
I just ran your set up on Pat's calculator and it stated that with Stock TORS and all snorkels removed you should be at 126.5 on the mains with 42 pilots. If you have a 45 pilots go with 125.5 mains.
You have the Short TORS. Are they heavily baffled or straight through type. The less restrictive TORS call for 130 to 134 mains depending on your pilots and degree of restriction in your exhaust. I think your mains might be a little lean.
12 Rocket Roadster
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Re: FIXED? Subject to test ride
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Oops.. forgot to add Im on Thruxton needles 119 is the main jet.. 
TrOjAn
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Re: FIXED? Subject to test ride
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Stickman Yogi
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Geeze man, you've really outdone yourself!
Live to love, love to live.
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Re: FIXED? Subject to test ride
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As a side note... I should also state that I messed the carbs up with all this on and off lark, 2 of the float bowl screws have stripped the threads so I have had to put longer screws in and a nut on top  You would think I would have learnt at my age that gently gently is the way to go LOL
TrOjAn
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 Re: FIXED? Subject to test ride
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3/4 Throttle
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Just had a fiddle with the calculator myself and it appears the needle has a big affect on the size of the main jet needed and brings them down to smaller than one might think. That said, if the plugs are showing lean, you need to go bigger. Unless you put it on a dyno, it's all about guess-work so try to find a friendly jet supplier who'll let you swap them around and have a play with different (bigger) jets.
After warming the engine up fully, wind the loud-handle to the stop in 2nd gear. It should reach the rev-limiter pretty sharpish. If it doesn't make it, if power tails off above a certain revs or if it feels like it's gonna blow, you're running lean.
On my bike, with long TORS and the rest of it stock (inc snorkel), the power used to tail off drastically at 6k revs (using the above method) and I only once hit the rev-limiter, and that was with trying. At those revs, the bike sounded like it wanted to blow up. I threw some 126's in and gained the power back, meaning I could hit the limiter a lot easier and, also, I could cruise along at 6k revs without the horrible feeling I was about to see a piston.
Hope this helps.
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Re: FIXED? Subject to test ride
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Loquacious
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One test that has been mentioned before for testing the size of your mains is to find a remote straight stretch of road (with no law enforcement). Wind the bike out in 4th or 5th (above 5000 rpm) for a few seconds then back off the throttle a little bit, if the bike seems to increase in speed, your mains are too small (lean). The thought being that you have slightly restricted air flow, compensating for the lean condition for a moment. The opposite is also true.
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Re: NOT FIXED
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Well how wrong can you be!!
Just been out on it, was fine for about 5 minutes as soon as it warmed up.. misfire, it was getting worse the hotter the bike got.. I am now thinking its NOT fuel related but electrical.
On tickover the rev meter glitches as if the power has been cut to it, the motor drops a few revs then picks back up.. does that 3 or 4 times then stalls.
Im going to try and borrow 2 coils to try, while Im waiting for those to arrive I am going to check the pick up for the ignition... who knows it might have moved.
Keep the ideas coming.. Im still lost on this!!
Might even try and get a diagnostics lead so I can hook the bike up to my laptop and see if any errors are there..
TrOjAn
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Re: NOT FIXED
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Taking bike to Dyno man tomorrow and see if he can shed some light on the issue... hopefuly be able to report back if it is electrical or fuel at the least!!
My mate just tested his coils and is getting the same readings as me so I can assume they are ok.
TrOjAn
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Re: NOT FIXED
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Loquacious
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Quote:
On tickover the rev meter glitches as if the power has been cut to it, the motor drops a few revs then picks back up.. does that 3 or 4 times then stalls.
This is a shot in the dark but check your ignition switch. Check the plug in and if possible take the switch apart to check the contacts. Others have had corroded contacts that were making/breaking the circuit.
You should check all your connections especially to items that could kill the engine run circuit such as the kickstand switch, kill switch, fuse box, etc.
12 Rocket Roadster
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Re: NOT FIXED
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Gregger: Will go over that tomorrow before I take it to the dyno man.. thx
TrOjAn
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Re: NOT FIXED.. TPS Adjust or NOT?
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OK, dyno man says fuel.. so carbs are now OFF.. he is going to ultra sonic clean them tomorrow.. meanwhile... This link >> http://www.triumphtwinpower.com/tps_adjustment.php I found interesting as I have checked my readings and get this.. STANDARD: Blue & Yellow wires = 4.42K OHMS (4.40-4.44) closed throttle & 1.38K OHMS (1.36-1.40) wide open throttle. MINE: Blue & Yellow wires = 4.18K OHMS closed throttle & 1.30K OHMS wide open throttle. STANDARD: Black & Yellow wires = 0.81k OHMS (0.79-0.83) closed throttle & 3.96k OHMS (3.94-3.98) wide open throttle. MINE: Black & Yellow wires = 0.75k OHMS closed throttle & 3.74k OHMS wide open throttle. So... SHOULD I adjust it or not?
TrOjAn
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Re: FIXED? Subject to test ride
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Check Pants
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Check Pants
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Just pick up two longer allen screws, that will give you enough threads to grab (at least it did in my case). I learned NOT to use Locktite with pot metal... Quote:
As a side note... I should also state that I messed the carbs up with all this on and off lark, 2 of the float bowl screws have stripped the threads so I have had to put longer screws in and a nut on top
You would think I would have learnt at my age that gently gently is the way to go LOL
Al
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Re: FIXED? Subject to test ride
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hehehee.. already got to that stage.. stripped carbs down today and re tapped the holes to next size up.. all good for now
NOTE: TrOjAn must NOT overtighten small bolts!!
TrOjAn
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Re: NOT FIXED.. TPS Adjust or NOT?
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
OK, dyno man says fuel.. so carbs are now OFF.. he is going to ultra sonic clean them tomorrow.. meanwhile...
This link >> http://www.triumphtwinpower.com/tps_adjustment.php I found interesting as I have checked my readings and get this..
STANDARD:
Blue & Yellow wires = 4.42K OHMS (4.40-4.44) closed throttle & 1.38K OHMS (1.36-1.40) wide open throttle.
MINE:
Blue & Yellow wires = 4.18K OHMS closed throttle & 1.30K OHMS wide open throttle.
STANDARD:
Black & Yellow wires = 0.81k OHMS (0.79-0.83) closed throttle & 3.96k OHMS (3.94-3.98) wide open throttle.
MINE:
Black & Yellow wires = 0.75k OHMS closed throttle & 3.74k OHMS wide open throttle.
So... SHOULD I adjust it or not?
You are out a bit. Not sure if it will make any difference. Doesn't hurt to have it perfect though. By the way, TPS adjustment is posted in the tech vault under "carbs"
As an aside, you can disconnect the TPS take it out of the equation if you suspect it. The engine will default to a wide open throttle map which isn't necessarily bad. Been running my bike like this all season.
12 Rocket Roadster
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Re: NOT FIXED.. TPS Adjust or NOT?
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Well speaking to the dyno man, he wants the TPS off the carbs for cleaning so I have marked it.. will reset it after.
I did skim through the tech vault.. must have missed it, will get there later, thanks,
TrOjAn
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Re: NOT FIXED But fault now IDENTIFIED
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OK, so I disconnect the TPS and it seems to be a lot better.. no stalling at tickover and no misfire on acceleration.
Took bike for a ride and got it really hot.. misfire came back so it wasnt the TPS.
Went to dyno man, issue was RH side was running RICH then LEAN then RICH etc etc at tickover.. WE WAS STUMPED
No idea why but I tried clipping the AIR VALVE pipe closed and the RH side went RICH and stayed stable.. fault identified!!
Took the Air Shutoof valve apart.. stretched the spring a bit and put it back, fault then moved to the LH side.. at last, we now had a fault we can produce!!
I am going to try and get a new one ASAP and see if it cures the problem.. if not I may just block it off completly..
At least now I have a direction on this fault.. been a few weeks but theres light at the end of the tunnel..
TrOjAn
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Re: NOT FIXED But fault now IDENTIFIED
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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What air shutoff valve are you refering to? The Air injection system? Remove it? Get some plugs for the tubes in the head.
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Re: NOT FIXED But fault now IDENTIFIED
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No not the AI.. theres a small AIR valve on the left hand carb just below the choke knob, has a small diaphragm, spring and an O ring, theres also a small pipe that goes from the air valve to the other carb.
TrOjAn
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Re: NOT FIXED But fault now IDENTIFIED
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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That's the overrun valve meant to keep the engine from running too lean when the throttle rolls off at high rpms (prevents seizure). I recommend treading gently in that area.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: NOT FIXED But fault now IDENTIFIED
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Well thanks a LOT!!.. Now Im worried to ******.. LOL Im going to order a new one, see what happens.. I can only assume its worn? Ill get it fitted asap and let you know.. thanks for the information
TrOjAn
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Re: NOT FIXED But fault now IDENTIFIED
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Just found this on the "Carburetor Overview (Keihin)" Quote:
Air-Cut Valve
An air-cut valve is used to prevent popping in the exhaust system during deceleration. The valve enriches the air/fuel mixture during deceleration. A diaphragm in the air cut valve is activated whenever high manifold vacuum is present, such as during deceleration. The movement of the diaphragm causes a partial blockage of the air bleed system in the low speed circuit. This reduces the aeration to the low speed jet which creates a richer mixture. The air-cut valve is factory pre-set and should not be altered. It may have to be replaced eventually, because the rubber diaphragm in the valve may deteriorate over time. If the diaphragm is deteriorating, you may notice leanness or a popping in the exhaust during deceleration.
TrOjAn
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Re: NOT FIXED But fault now IDENTIFIED
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Check Pants
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Check Pants
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I guess these carbs are going to need to be rebuilt sooner or later. I wonder if they sell a kit or you have to buy individual components? Quote:
Just found this on the "Carburetor Overview (Keihin)"
Quote:
Air-Cut Valve
An air-cut valve is used to prevent popping in the exhaust system during deceleration. The valve enriches the air/fuel mixture during deceleration. A diaphragm in the air cut valve is activated whenever high manifold vacuum is present, such as during deceleration. The movement of the diaphragm causes a partial blockage of the air bleed system in the low speed circuit. This reduces the aeration to the low speed jet which creates a richer mixture. The air-cut valve is factory pre-set and should not be altered. It may have to be replaced eventually, because the rubber diaphragm in the valve may deteriorate over time. If the diaphragm is deteriorating, you may notice leanness or a popping in the exhaust during deceleration.
Al
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OMG.. I DONT believe it
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SO I call Triumph to order an AIR VALVE kit.. they dont sell them!! yep, you heard it right, they DONT sell them!!
I give up.. totally lost on this now, Im going to block it off and see what it does..
TrOjAn
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Re: OMG.. I DONT believe it
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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Try SUDCO, they stock a ton of Keihin parts.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: OMG.. I DONT believe it
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Absolutly bloody amazing... phoned Triumph UK, you know, that place where they build these things..
Just been told by the rep there to "find a breakers" or "look on ebay" for this diapragm as we dont sell them!
I give up.. I really do
TrOjAn
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Re: OMG.. I DONT believe it
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Stickman Yogi
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Stickman Yogi
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Quote:
Absolutly bloody amazing... phoned Triumph UK, you know, that place where they build these things..
Just been told by the rep there to "find a breakers" or "look on ebay" for this diapragm as we dont sell them!
I give up.. I really do
Geeze man, I can't believe the frustration you are going through!! Hang in there!
Live to love, love to live.
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Re: OMG.. I DONT believe it
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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Quote:
Absolutly bloody amazing... phoned Triumph UK, you know, that place where they build these things..
It may be a matter of semantics but they really only assemble these bikes as most of the parts are OEM from outside suppliers. The carbs are from Keihin, one of Honda's larger subsidiaries.
You can cut out Triumph as a middle-man and go direct to a Keihin parts supplier (such as SUDCO, but that's in Southern California and you're in the UK) to obtain the necessary items. In fact, considering their lame response, I'd cut them out of any parts business and source my stuff from Bike Bandit or any other reliable vendor.
Or, you could take their advice and spend $200:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Triumph-S...#ht_3928wt_1733
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: OMG.. I DONT believe it
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Cheers for the reply.. I wouldnt mind IF Triumph had said, get them from Honda or something but to say sorry its a 4 year old bike and we dont use carbs anymore is not good IMO.
I have spent like days on the internet looking for a UK supplier / dealer but no one has the spares.. surely somewhere in the UK theres a Keihin dealer that has these..
I am still sure its the cause of my misfire... if I leave the bike ticking over and block off the small vacum hole in the air valve it ticks over fine with no issues.. but the valve is also needed to richen up the mixture on throttle openings.. so I NEED it..
I got a bid on some carbs but thats 4 days away... if I dont get them Im back to stage 1 again. OR I could change the carbs to a differnet type but thats a big expense.
TrOjAn
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