Bonneville America Forums Forums Off Topic Discussion Forums Lounge The law is an ****** and I'm an idiot

The orignal topic had played out its course and the basis of another began. Dwight himself steered it that way.

As he often does by implication. Seemingly desiring a more interesting line of supposed controversy.

Mmmmmm.

If anybody here has ever seen the classic western, "The Oxbox Incident", then I'm guessin' if Kevin here were one of the posse, he wouldn't be siding with Henry Fonda's character when they took that vote about what their ideas of "Due Process" were.

(ya think I might be right here, folks???)

Hey Bill, sorry, I MEANT to say "The ICEBOX Incident" there, dude! Haven't you ever seen THAT western???

Yeah! It ALSO starred Henry Fonda, but instead of a campfire, in THIS one the posse is sittin' around an icebox and sippin' chilled Fat Tire Ales!!!

And so THIS one has a MUCH happier ending, see! The posse members are so blasted they can't even throw their ropes over a tree limb, and so they all decide(yep, even that old contankerous fart in his Confederate uniform who led the lynch mob in that OTHER movie) to just hand those three suspects over to the sheriff!!!

(but as is often the case, some sequels don't quite pack the same punch as the originals)

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With regard to Simon's actions, I think he could have been very close to facing charges for murder (or attempted murder) if things had got out of hand. While I fully understand wanting to protect your family, leaving your home with a weapon and going looking for someone will not be classed as self defence.

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Think you were very lucky getting off with a caution there mate. Hear many tales of folks rightly or wrongly ending up in court for a lot less. Looks like Plod used a bit of common sense this time, which is always nice
Shame you can't also get Trading Standards involved...

This sounds like something that would currently happen in Mexico, except one of you would now be headless and all the cops would be dead, plus the judges, lawyers(hey-not all bad) and anyone who saw it happen.

Nah Leno! Maybe that's how it comes across to you ol' buddy, BUT what I'm doin' here is TRYIN' to GET some folks who THINK takin' the law into their OWN HANDS is the "right thing to do"...well, that it's almost ALWAYS a really STUPID friggin' MOVE!!!

(and just so's you won't feel too bad about your misplaced analogy here-->)

Just wondering if you need a new keyboard Dwight... the shift / caps lock key seems to be sticking. Have been meaning to mention it for a while now

Blimey Simon - you never cease to suprise me mate!

You got lucky with a caution and keeping your head on your shoulders.

I won't lecture mate - just make sure you get yourself in good order for Dent so I can buy you a beer or two!

And while you're at it Graham, do me a favor. With all the guff I've given Simon here, buy him a pint on me, will ya?

(sorry Simon, I didn't mean for this to sound like I was jumpin' on ya like this, however when some of the OTHERS around here seemed to want to suggest that "your only mistake here was your lack of firepower" in your situation, THAT'S when this keyboard o' mine here usually gets "smokin' hot")

Consider it done Dwight!

Like I said, I know I'm an idiot for going round there but I'm tired of people assumi9ng I'm an easy target.

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How does that make you an idiot? More like a hero doing what he needs to do.

And Dog33, you challenged them after they came to your door, and it was your fault?

Not after, the cops said just by answering the door we challenged them.

Simon read with great interest your post. Most folk suffer some sort of illness throughout their life how we cope with it in or own ways is each persons choice. Soem folk turn to booze to ease the suffering. The down side is some of the ays choose really affects others we become so wrapped up in our own suffering we forget the impact our behaviour may have on our friends and families.

As for going to his house with a hammer Simon I would not condemn you for taking the boy scout approach "Be Prepared" drug dealers no matter how they may portray themselves are already outside the law and commiting another criminal act does not worry them. They have to rely on fear to ensure that they dont get any grief from other dealers or non payers. (This is not me making excuses for them)

Threatening families is an established tactic from these people. I have a similar experience from a local dealer who sold drugs to a younger more vulnerable family member. I eneded up with a an addition on the National police data base for my actions.

Would I do it again in a heart beat. The only mistake I made was not to hurt the little badly enough. It became uncomfortable for a while as all this dealers little friends decided to make my life awkward. I ended up being harrassed by roups of young neds until something drastic happened.

This forum is not the place for me to into details as far as I know the case is still open with the police. Suffice it to say the police know that I did it they know why I did it but the cannot prove I did it.

Watch your back mate these animals will try hit back in some way. Keep one eye open if they do come back you two options run or fight.

I cannot tell you what is the right course of action for you I will not presume to try and tell you what to do. I will wish you well and hope it all blows over.

I have been there and am there now,in the circumstances I'm in me and my family havbe been threatened with death and my 16 yr old daughter has been threatened with rape. This scum bag said he would pay someone to rape her while he watches. This was done over Emails and text messages and the cops were there when it happened. this clown has bench warrants and a warrant stemming from our situation and our Barney Fife patrol hasn't done anything about it either. This hase been going for a year or so. He stalks the house and says things only someone near the house would know like vehicle positions or appearance of a new one. We have told the Barneys where he is staying and the places he visits on a regular basis. We have even clued them in when he messaged or called from somewhere we know. Yet this guy is running the streets. Then you wonder why guys like me take matters into our own hands? I admit I have been on the wrong side of the law more than once but that doesn't mean I am less entitled to protection than the next guy and the rest of my family hasn't been on the wrong side of the law so do they deserve less action on the part of Barney Fife because they are with me? I have been law abiding for over 20 years now and even did the right thing when my family was assaulted and what did it get me? The Keystone Cops let the girls go with trespassing charges even though there was overwhelming evidence of the assault and the girl admitted doing it when she went to court for the trespass charge. It seems to me more often than not the Keystone Cops I have come across only want to hassle people instead of doing their job to serve and protect. I have no problem with any officer who does their best but it seems in most cases this doesn't happen. They don't want the paper work or maybe only want to do what may get them a promotion and don't care about the people they are supposed to protect. I know some officers and I will say this is not always the case and there are some good cops but I think they are out numbered by the lazy good for nothing variety.

I agree Bill, he may have been justified defending himself but then shooting the bad guy once down is murder plain and simple. Now if the bad guy was down but still trying to point a gun then shoot again.

What precedent? (OJ Simpson) It'll probably turn into a racial thing at the Pharmacist's trial as both perps including the one pushind daisies were people of color.

Prosecutor will try to load the jury that way and the defense will work it the other way.

Sure......its a conundrum but me hopes enough of those lots of people I speak of end up on the jury.

Any moron to shoot at a fleeing, no threat, thief should not be allowed to own a firearm. He should be charged immediately with reckless endangering. Every miss goes someplace Kevin! I can't believe you mean that!

The pharmacist is a murderer plain and simple in any thinking persons eyes. It is tragic but once he owned guns he accepted his own responsibility for the proper use of them.

Regardless of his mental state, his responsibility never ends. Man-Law! you can't kill the helpless.

Some of you guys could swing me toward gun laws. You scare me to death.

typical self righteous anti-gun BS. Have you watched the store video that outlines the entire sequence?

Two numbnuts enter the store....one clearly brandishing a gun and pointing directly at the Pharmacist. he retreats quickly and fires a shot and the one numbnuts goes down and the other loses heart and retreats out the door.

Pharmacist follows and returns within seconds ...walks past the downed numbnut and returns ...camera shows him shooting but we do not see the idiot on the floor.

This pharmacist showed tremendous courage in the face of things. Most of us would have just pooped our pants.

I have to believe the adrenalin rush was over the top for him.

He is a hero to me. Only thing wrong here at all is that the first shot was not cleanly fatal. The fact that the others were is of no concern to me.

If you enter a mans castle with intent to do harm armed and obvious and you end up dead than thats AOK.

Do some browsing on this specific case ...you will see that gun owners and gun organizations are predominantly backing the Pharmacist.

Most pro-gun, NRA and self defense folks always back the individual who ends up in a case like this.

I am not an expert in the use of firearms but I do strongly support those who happen to need to use theirs.

We call it the right to keep and bear arms and USE those arms when our property , lives and or businesses are endangered by criminals ....

You are aware that these people who entered the pharmacy were nothing but lowlife common criminals on the road to prison or death.?

I am not sorry the numbnuts lost his life. He entered a place of business with premeditated desire to threaten, kill, and steal. He is now dead. Good riddance.

Your assumption that the pharmacist put others in danger is preposterous.

His only small error was ....he used a .380.....a 44 mag would have taken the perps head "clean off" ala Clint Eastwood.


The dead robber's mother refers to him as her baby. he stopped being her baby and got dead when he entered the pharmacy as part of an armed robbery attempt.

My heroic pharmacist protected the lives and property he was in.

the following says it all well.....
taken from another site written by a gun owner and a lawyer.



The family’s comments

“[The pharmacist who acted in self defense] needs to know that he killed our brother and know the hurt and the pain we feel,” said Parker’s sister, Brittany Baldwin.

I’m sure that the family of the dead robber is feeling much grief, and for that grief they have my sympathy. However fault for their grief does not lie with the pharmacy worker who rightfully defended himself and his customers from a violent attacker. No person has the right to rob and threaten the life of another, and when a person does so, the victim is legally and morally justified in shooting that criminal to save themselves. The fault for the death of this robber lies with the robber himself and his accomplices, not the pharmacy worker.

“My brother didn’t have intentions of robbing that store.”

The facts pretty clearly establish that this was a violent armed robbery attempt. I understand how a family member may wish to believe the best about their dead relative, but such a belief does not change the reality of the situation.

Cleta Jennings said that she’s certain that her son didn’t plan to rob Reliable Pharmacy. She said he may have become involved with the wrong crowd. “He was my baby,” she said.

(Almost) every mother loves her son and thinks the world of him. However a mother’s love for her son does not mean that he is innocent when caught red-handed, committing a violent and life-threatening robbery. I would also note that just about everyone whose child becomes involved in criminality likes to believe that their child is good, but just got involved with the “wrong crowd.” I find that idea to be unpersuasive. We all make choices as to whom we associate with, and what actions we take. Growing up, I knew kids who committed robbery, sold drugs, etc. I chose not to associate with them, or commit those crimes. Had I chosen to engage in criminality, it would have been my fault, not just the fault of those criminally minded kids.

She said Parker, 16, [the dead robber] loved to play basketball and draw pictures.

Here we have an attempt to try and make this violent robber seem like a more sympathetic person. The fact is that even the most hardened, violent, and sadistic people can have hobbies like basketball and drawing. Remember, Hitler was an amature artist, and even tried to go to art school. The fact that this violent robber had hobbies is rather irrelevant here.

“If (Ensland) would have called the cops [instead of shooting in self defense], I would rather him be in jail than on that [morgue] table.”

Here, Parker’s sister states that the pharmacy worker should have called the police instead of shooting in self defense. This suggestion is without any real merit. An armed robbery is a dangerous situation, where victims are often shot by robbers, even after cooperating fully. Just offering the robber a chance to surrender at gunpoint can result in the citizen being shot by the robber. The police are minutes away at best, while it can take just seconds for that armed robber to ruin or end the victim’s life. It is simply not reasonable to expect a crime victim to risk their life in order to preserve the life of the very robber who is wrongfully threatening them.

Additional notes

I would like to reiterate that I understand the grief this family must be feeling, and do not blame them for feeling this way. However their understandable sadness over the loss of their loved one does not in any way justify that criminal’s actions, nor does their grief in any way make the pharmacy worker at fault. Instead, the fault lies with the now-dead criminal, and his accomplices. I’m not going to sit here and assign fault for this now deceased young man’s decision to become a criminal, since I don’t know all the facts. However I will say that I’m sure a large part of why I just graduated from law school and am a law abiding member of the community has to do with my upbringing. My relatives instilled the importance of being a law abiding citizen, and would not have allowed me to become involved with the “wrong crowd.” They would not have permitted me to engage in criminality, and would have known if I was doing so. Again, not speaking specifically about this situation since I don’t have all the facts, I’ll just say that it seems that a lot young criminals have parents who are not properly supervising and raising them to become law abiding adults, then act surprised when their child is found to have committed a crime

I would also like to note that I find this newspaper’s publication of this story to be somewhat unreasonable. This is not news, or even well reasoned opinion. It is just an attempt to drum up sympathy (and money, see the end of the article) for a criminal who wrongfully threatened the lives of multiple innocent people, and to vilify a hero who saved himself and other innocent people from that criminal.

Finally, as sad as it is to admit this, the pharmacy worker likely saved a great many other people from having their lives endangered by Antwun Parker in the future. That is because armed robbers like Parker tend to become career criminals, who commit their violent crimes time and time again. Jail does not tend to reform such criminals, and they often commit repeated offenses until they are finally fatally shot by an armed citizen. Because Parker was stopped early on in his armed robbery career, it is likely that many people will never have to look down the barrel of his gun as he threatens their lives while taking their belongings.

Can I be your new dealer, Simon? Pwease!! If we say that I come up light every other deal, and then maybe every 10 deals you only get half of what you pay for...

Oh, and I've a nice bridge you may be interested in.

Well, there are two Texas gun owners who don't seem to agree with the hero part.

I also am talking about the below quote when I talk about your absolute negligence that could kill others. The innocent that are killed by your miss could really care less about your desire to light somebody up.

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If we could recreate the crime and find ourselves with a Clint Eastwood special ...having a good close shot at the fleeing thief would not hesitate to pump the entire clip into the back of same.

Thieves deserve this kind of justice.

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Pump an entire clip into the back of same! So brave, if you really mean that. I was also discussing this part of your persona. That scares me a lot. It sounds like you have passed defense and think about killing a person as sport.

I can only assure you, its not sport. When the ringing starts in your ears and everything goes in slow motion you suddenly realize the finality of it all. Right before the nausea sets in you get a full appreciation of what just happened. Oh, skip that, that is the normal reaction. For others its just way cool!

I am pro-gun and hate them. I hate everything about them. They remind me of the flawed humans who make them a needed tool. I hate the finality of them. I am repulsed by those who worship them as something other than what they are. They kill, that is their only purpose. They kill whatever they are pointed at. Babies to burglars, they could care less. A simple instrument of death.

As long as bad guys exist I figure they have a use. I am not a wannabe executioner like many others.

I will stop now before I say exactly what I feel.

I'm sure this argument could be settled quickly if someone would just bring up the subject of religious beliefs.

Settled? No. Ended? Yes.

The subject of guns almost always teeters on the brink of either politics or personal insults. One or both are imminent but I'm not locking it yet. Now excuse me, I think I'll go shoot something...

Okay. That's enough. Thank you for playing. Move along. Nothing to see here.