 NOT a BB but still interesting
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Joined: Mar 2007
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Check Pants
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OP
Check Pants
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SOLD: 07 Black BA, 39mm FCRs, TPUSA stage 1 head, TPUSA 813 cams, TPUSA 10.8:1 pistons, TTP #3 igniter, Specialty Spares Long Cannons, Tsukayu Hard Bags. 82HP/55tq
NEW: 19 Goldwing Tour DCT
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Re: NOT a BB but still interesting
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
11:1 forged pistons, ready to accept oversize valves (looks like the head work would be extra), different cams (cam specs would be interesting), could be the deal for 865 owners.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: NOT a BB but still interesting
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,237 Likes: 63
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,237 Likes: 63 |
Look at these pistons, bet they don't collect much carbon!  I would like some 10.5:1 forged pistons for my 790. Drop in no other work, just pop the OEMs out new ones in with fresh rings.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: NOT a BB but still interesting
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 410
Adjunct
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Adjunct
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The_Dog33 If you find some let us know, would not mind going that "easy" route too  TrOjAn
TrOjAn
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Re: NOT a BB but still interesting
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 56
Member
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Member
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Seems like for all the work it's gonna take $250 more for the 904cc kit isn't all that much extra. Of course you don't get new cams, but...
Last edited by Knoxville; 04/15/2009 12:07 PM.
Live in the sunshine, drink the wild air... - Emerson
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Re: NOT a BB but still interesting
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,616
Check Pants
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OP
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This is designed to be a drop in kit. With the 904 you have to have the sleeves pressed into the jugs. With this kit you swap pistons and cams, no need for a shop. Im waiting for Carlos to do a dyno run and see what this gets. He estimates 8-10 RWHP. If stock is 54 bhp / 51 ft lb stock reference #s 904 is 74 bhp / 64 ft lb 904 reference #s (average taken) 865 kit is est to be 63 bhp / ?? ft lb Huh...I think I just figured out the BB, even with machine shop labor, is a better performance option. Now I really want to see the dyno #s.
Last edited by Zmilin; 04/15/2009 1:09 PM.
SOLD: 07 Black BA, 39mm FCRs, TPUSA stage 1 head, TPUSA 813 cams, TPUSA 10.8:1 pistons, TTP #3 igniter, Specialty Spares Long Cannons, Tsukayu Hard Bags. 82HP/55tq
NEW: 19 Goldwing Tour DCT
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Re: NOT a BB but still interesting
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 56
Member
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Member
Joined: Mar 2009
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Quote:
This is designed to be a drop in kit.
With the 904 you have to have the sleeves pressed into the jugs. With this kit you swap pistons and cams, no need for a shop.
I agree for most of the kits out there, but TPUSA's 904 kit already has the jugs bored and replated, correct?
Live in the sunshine, drink the wild air... - Emerson
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Re: NOT a BB but still interesting
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,877
Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,877 |
I think drop in pistons would be interesting too. No cams or other fancy stuff, just higher comp pistons, done. Certainly simple... Cams seem to have the lowest price/HP value, just cause they are soooo expensive to begin with, that's why the BB kits are a better value, cause they skip the cams!
Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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Re: NOT a BB but still interesting
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,237 Likes: 63
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,237 Likes: 63 |
Quote:
Seems like for all the work it's gonna take $250 more for the 904cc kit isn't all that much extra. Of course you don't get new cams, but...
I used to put 10.5:1 pistons in my old bikes the gains were perceptible to the rider, never dynoed one. With the 904 you have the cost of machine work too. I wasn't thinking of cams either, meaning I really don't want any just the higher compression and better piston. This is for the 865 anyway not the 790 so not sure what if any gain you would get with the cam. I already have really good numbers on the dyno so the BB kit only hold interest to me when it comes time to rebuild. I like to ride and am not racing.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: NOT a BB but still interesting
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,616
Check Pants
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OP
Check Pants
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,616 |
Quote:
Quote:
This is designed to be a drop in kit.
With the 904 you have to have the sleeves pressed into the jugs. With this kit you swap pistons and cams, no need for a shop.
I had to go back and check the price...yes...they have it all for a couple hundred more.
I agree for most of the kits out there, but TPUSA's 904 kit already has the jugs bored and replated, correct?
I had to go back and check the price...yes...they have it all for a couple hundred more.
Another option is to have a local shop do the jugs...I dont know if that saves and $$ or not.
SOLD: 07 Black BA, 39mm FCRs, TPUSA stage 1 head, TPUSA 813 cams, TPUSA 10.8:1 pistons, TTP #3 igniter, Specialty Spares Long Cannons, Tsukayu Hard Bags. 82HP/55tq
NEW: 19 Goldwing Tour DCT
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Re: NOT a BB but still interesting
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,671 Likes: 15
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,671 Likes: 15 |
Quote:
...that's why the BB kits are a better value, cause they skip the cams!
Agreed for the 790's, however with the 865's one still needs a decent intake cam to get the most out of the BB.
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Re: NOT a BB but still interesting
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,877
Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,877 |
Ah that's right, they cammed those down didn't they? Bummer  Junkyard 790 cams?
Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
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Re: NOT a BB but still interesting
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,616
Check Pants
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OP
Check Pants
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,616 |
Quote:
This is designed to be a drop in kit.
With the 904 you have to have the sleeves pressed into the jugs. With this kit you swap pistons and cams, no need for a shop.
Im waiting for Carlos to do a dyno run and see what this gets.
He estimates 8-10 RWHP.
If stock is 54 bhp / 51 ft lb stock reference #s
904 is 74 bhp / 64 ft lb 904 reference #s (average taken)
865 kit is est to be 63 bhp / ?? ft lb
Huh...I think I just figured out the BB, even with machine shop labor, is a better performance option.
Now I really want to see the dyno #s.
I may be changing my tune here...what Im finding is that you can make more power in the end with a 904 kit (after adding cams, headwork, carbs, ignitor etc...) BUT after some more…ok a LOT MORE thinking and looking and reading and such here is what I have now come up with:
Seems that there are dyno results for this 865 kit on the Triumphtwinpower site.
Ive emailed jut to verify BUT the initial results look like the TPUSA kit can make upwards of 74.6hp/52ft-lb with a custom mapped ignitor. With the OEM ignitor it can make 70hp/49ft-lb.
Heres the chart posted on theTriumphtwinpowerweb site.
The beauty here is that these results seem to be for a 270 not a 360 twin 
Last edited by Zmilin; 10/12/2009 9:51 AM.
SOLD: 07 Black BA, 39mm FCRs, TPUSA stage 1 head, TPUSA 813 cams, TPUSA 10.8:1 pistons, TTP #3 igniter, Specialty Spares Long Cannons, Tsukayu Hard Bags. 82HP/55tq
NEW: 19 Goldwing Tour DCT
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Re: NOT a BB but still interesting
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,616
Check Pants
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OP
Check Pants
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My OCD is realy kicking in on this right now...
I did some math...
TPUSA 865 kit produces a gain of..................16 hp and 5 ft-lb for a cost of $59.31 per hp or $189.80 per ft-lb (price $949.00)
TPUSA kit w/ Ignitor produces a gain of..........21 hp and 8 ft-lb for a cost of $56.86 per hp or $149.25 per ft-lb (price $1194.00)
A basic 904 kit only produces a gain of about..16 hp and 18 ft-lb for a cost of $74.69 per hp or $66.39 per ft-lb (price $1195.00)
Now...some will balk at the price for the 904 kit. Im taking the price of the TPUSA kit cause its a one stop shop AND its a 11.5:1 kit vs the 10:1 kit, jugs are done and ready to go and using the low end of the claimed results from the BP web site.
I think this is safe cause after looking over the Dyno charts NO ONES 904 mods got to those #s without more work and more $$. So...all in all I think Im giving the 904 kit more credit than its due.
904 owners...Im not ****** on your kits. I know ultimately the 904 kit will allow for greater gains overall and the initial Tq gain is significant. Thats the one thing thats still keeping me hung up on the 904 kit.
SOLD: 07 Black BA, 39mm FCRs, TPUSA stage 1 head, TPUSA 813 cams, TPUSA 10.8:1 pistons, TTP #3 igniter, Specialty Spares Long Cannons, Tsukayu Hard Bags. 82HP/55tq
NEW: 19 Goldwing Tour DCT
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Re: NOT a BB but still interesting
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,726
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Aug 2005
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IMHO many people get too excited about max. hp at max. rpm. My 904 with standard compression Wiseco pistons and stock airbox (w/UNI) is hitting almost 60 at 5250 rpm where the hp and torque curves cross. This is major usable torque and hp and higher in the most important power range.
The chart above is almost hitting 48 at the same rpm where mine is 60. That's a 12 hp difference. You'll never convince me that the 904 BB isn't the best bang for the buck.
Bob
2005 America, 904cc - sold. 2014 Trophy SE.
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Re: NOT a BB but still interesting
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,237 Likes: 63
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,237 Likes: 63 |
I don't know what happened but seems the pistons I had embeded have changed to a mirror.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: NOT a BB but still interesting
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,616
Check Pants
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OP
Check Pants
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Im not trying to convince anyone that one is better than the other. Jut doing some research and sharing info. That Tq gain in the 904 kit is what keeps my wheels turning. I almost had myself convinced the 865 kit was the way to go...now I need more data  Just putting info out there. Like I said...my OCD kicked in.
SOLD: 07 Black BA, 39mm FCRs, TPUSA stage 1 head, TPUSA 813 cams, TPUSA 10.8:1 pistons, TTP #3 igniter, Specialty Spares Long Cannons, Tsukayu Hard Bags. 82HP/55tq
NEW: 19 Goldwing Tour DCT
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Re: NOT a BB but still interesting
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 122
Adjunct
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Adjunct
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Well basicly this is what it's all about;
If you like to have a significant increase of torque and hp in low and mid range, up to 6 500/7 000 rpm - then the 904 is the way to go!
If you like to have a significant increase of hp above 7 000 - go for hi-comp pistons and a tweeked CDI
If you want more in both ends - do both and a proper top job with bigger valves, new or bored out carbs, new cams etc, etc
Hasse
Last edited by Hasse; 10/13/2009 4:26 AM.
Hasse TBA -02 Pre-Fire Cardinal Red, Wiseco 904, Thunderbike pipes, Freak
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Re: NOT a BB but still interesting
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,150
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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Posts: 2,150 |
I'm more of a tq man in the usable range category. That's why I bought a cruiser but for me I'd love to bore out to 904 with bigger valves and getting that carb inlet size increased. One day when I need a re-build I believe Until then I'll play around with what I can afford 
Staintune Pipes, K&N Pods, 45 pilots, TBS needles and 145 mains.
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Re: NOT a BB but still interesting
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,416
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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True. For most of us torque is more important. I love my improved torque numbers that makes two-up riding as easy as riding solo. The increased hp way up is more of a fun thing to do now and then (not that often with the mrs on the pillion though...). BTW, has anyone tried the DNA filters that Pieman sells? I've read that they flow way better than K&N and UNI pods. Not sure how they fit in our bikes. web page
"Wise men speak because they have something to say, fools because they have to say something."
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Re: NOT a BB but still interesting
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,174 Likes: 15
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Posts: 1,174 Likes: 15 |
looking at these dyno charts (and everyone elses)cams seems to be the biggest improver (for the 865 motors), followed by getting away from the stock pistons. If I read the dyno chart (in this thread) info correctly, all of the runs are with the 813 cams, that would make a big change even with the stock pistons. It would be interesting to see a 904 vs 865 with everything being equal dyno comparison. It is a pretty small increase in displacement, it should be possible to get pretty close to the same power out of both.
although if you go to the effort to change out the pistons, and for a couple of bucks more do the 904, why not.
05 speedmaster - 1100cc, 11:1 racing pistons, Carillo rods, thunderbike cams, ported and polished head, 2mm over intake and exhaust valves, Barnett kevlar clutch, scepter pipes, oversize manifolds, 45mm HSR's, TTP stage 4 firestarter
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Re: NOT a BB but still interesting
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,150
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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Quote:
BTW, has anyone tried the DNA filters that Pieman sells? I've read that they flow way better than K&N and UNI pods. Not sure how they fit in our bikes. web page
No but they look interesting. Again, it would be nice to have someone with K&N's do a dyno and straight afterwards put them on to see if there really was any difference. I doubt that's going to happen though. 
Staintune Pipes, K&N Pods, 45 pilots, TBS needles and 145 mains.
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Re: NOT a BB but still interesting
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,416
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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Well, it would be cool if someone did that. On "the other forum" I read this on the matter K&N's vs DNA: Quote:
With a little jiggling about with the position of the fusebox and the starter solenoid these babies slid in there nicely.
And what a difference they've made to the airflow!!
Without touching the jetting I went from a spot-on 13:1 to an ultra-lean 15.5:1 just by changing the filters!
Thats a pretty staggering improvement over the K&N's and now means Im in the region of 160's or more for the mains.
The subsequent improvement in performance can certainly be felt while riding,
all the way from the low down torquey pull to the full WOT top end hp!!
If anyone out there is thinking of buying Pods then these DNA's are definitely worth considering I'd say.
Getting these lean readings just by changing filters points to the DNA's breath better, right? Makes you think... 
"Wise men speak because they have something to say, fools because they have to say something."
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Re: NOT a BB but still interesting
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Check Pants
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OP
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found this link ( http://www.motovationusa.com/dna_abt.html ) which led me to this link ( http://www.motovationusa.com/230-FiLTER.pdf ) which is in French.....but getting to the end of it is a final comparison chart. Looks like the DNA and K&N are very close. The DNA has a higher fouling rate (it gets dirtier faster which tells me it filters better, but that is also shown in the chart).
SOLD: 07 Black BA, 39mm FCRs, TPUSA stage 1 head, TPUSA 813 cams, TPUSA 10.8:1 pistons, TTP #3 igniter, Specialty Spares Long Cannons, Tsukayu Hard Bags. 82HP/55tq
NEW: 19 Goldwing Tour DCT
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Re: NOT a BB but still interesting
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,416
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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Come to think of it, maybe the whole thing is the size and shape of the DNA with it's bigger total inlet area. K&N also have similar filters: web page
"Wise men speak because they have something to say, fools because they have to say something."
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Re: NOT a BB but still interesting
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,726
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,726 |
The biggest advantage of more torque in the mid range is that you constantly are using it. Hp above 7K doesn't mean much to me as I never am up there. I have so much power running up the revs, I don't need to get that high.
Hp at high rpms is most useful in race bikes, but more torque and power 3K-6K is usable in all aspects of street riding. I tried a lighter weight flywheel which increased the max. Hp at upper rpms. I had them put the stock back in because the bike felt LESS powerful except once you were up to speed. D & D puts the lighter flywheels in their Triumph race bikes which are running high rpms all the time. My conclusion was that the flywheel actually decreased the torque at lower rpms.
Bob
2005 America, 904cc - sold. 2014 Trophy SE.
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Re: NOT a BB but still interesting
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,937
Loquacious
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Loquacious
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I think I'm going to stay happy with my 45 HP & T  , and with the money I'll save, I'll NEVER be out of beer money! 
And you may see me tonight
With an illegal smile
J. Prine
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Re: NOT a BB but still interesting
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,616
Check Pants
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OP
Check Pants
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I spoke to Carlos at TPUSA today...hes great to talk to and very informative in a not pushy kind of way. I got some really good info from him and Ill share it but I know Im forgetting some of what he told me...here goes. BTW...Im quoting Mag10 cause his questions/comments were the same as the ones from ym conversation today... Quote:
looking at these dyno charts (and everyone elses)cams seems to be the biggest improver (for the 865 motors), followed by getting away from the stock pistons.
EXACTLY...Ive heard it before but he was able to confirm it. Triumph detuned the 865 motor with cams to pass emissions. The 865 (270 especially) responds really well to carbs and cams.
When I mentioned cams before carbs he said (not quoting, paraphrasing here) yes, that will be a good upgrade but I would get a beeter torque number at lower RPMs with carbs before cams.
Quote:
It is a pretty small increase in displacement, it should be possible to get pretty close to the same power out of both.
I specifically asked about this...HP yes but not Torque. He referenced the dyno runs with the 865 HC kit vs typical 904 results (funny, kinda like I did in my earlier post). At a certain point the 865 becomes limited...if I remember it was a combination of lack of clearance for valve opening that would be needed by the cams as well as simply not being able to move enough air through the motor (limiting factors being carbs, cams, displacement, exhaust). Displacemetn being teh biggest factor as all other area easily changed.
This all led to the reason for the 865 HC kit...there was a demand for more without the machine work of the 904.
Quote:
although if you go to the effort to change out the pistons, and for a couple of bucks more do the 904, why not.
I brought this up as well...the bottom line here is that that little 39cc of increase is enough to get this little motor to boogey. The 904 kit increases displacement enough to provide more room in the cylinder for bigger valves which opens this motor up to higher Tq numbers at lower RPMs.
The great thing is that he did not push one way or another. He gave great info about each kit but also gave even better insight as to mods and order fo mods to get to my final result in an orderly manner since I dont have a bag of cash to drop in his lap.
SOLD: 07 Black BA, 39mm FCRs, TPUSA stage 1 head, TPUSA 813 cams, TPUSA 10.8:1 pistons, TTP #3 igniter, Specialty Spares Long Cannons, Tsukayu Hard Bags. 82HP/55tq
NEW: 19 Goldwing Tour DCT
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Re: NOT a BB but still interesting
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,416
Oil Expert
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Oil Expert
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Quote:
The 904 kit increases displacement enough to provide more room in the cylinder for bigger valves which opens this motor up to higher Tq numbers at lower RPMs
I wonder how much bigger valves really would add IRL. I've got >57 lb ft out of my 904 with the OEM "small" ones. I honestly doubt (but I could be wrong) they would make so much difference. And when you think of the cost involved...
"Wise men speak because they have something to say, fools because they have to say something."
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Re: NOT a BB but still interesting
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,616
Check Pants
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OP
Check Pants
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Quote:
Quote:
The 904 kit increases displacement enough to provide more room in the cylinder for bigger valves which opens this motor up to higher Tq numbers at lower RPMs
I wonder how much bigger valves really would add IRL. I've got >57 lb ft out of my 904 with the OEM "small" ones. I honestly doubt (but I could be wrong) they would make so much difference. And when you think of the cost involved...
Dunno...I guess if your doing head work and really want to maximize biger valves is the way to go.
He had also mentioned that when doing MUCH bigger motors like the 1087 you need to go with bigger valves (as high as 6mm over) as well as SUB (Shim Under Bucket) to accomodate the aggressive cams.
The 904 stuff will cost a pretty penny if you decide to tweak it to max BUT anything bigger just gets ridiculous with the amount of modifications needed to squeeze those mods out.
SOLD: 07 Black BA, 39mm FCRs, TPUSA stage 1 head, TPUSA 813 cams, TPUSA 10.8:1 pistons, TTP #3 igniter, Specialty Spares Long Cannons, Tsukayu Hard Bags. 82HP/55tq
NEW: 19 Goldwing Tour DCT
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