 Calling all mechanical engineers
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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This is not a bike related question. I am trying to design a three story elevator, and economically. I figure I could start with building a 3' by 5' platform. Enclose it in tracks with wheels on the platform. Then use either an electric engine pulling hoist or a winch from a truck, (converted to a/c) to pull it up with. Possibly a pulley system to increase speed, while losing pulling power. Total dead weight would be two people and the platform, say, 600 pounds. (And this without a possible counter balance weight addition)
Comments as to it's feasibility appreciated.
Fidelis et Fortis
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Whats the intended use, and why are you reinventing the elevator?
There are a lot of proven elevator design out there.
Feasibility is up to you, your money, and time.
Clay
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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I think using the term "dead weight" in this instance is quite appropriate 
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Let me guess here...Clay, YOU'RE the new EASTERN U.S. and Bill, YOU'RE the new WESTERN U.S. Distributors for the Otis Elevator Co. of Farmington CT...RIGHT?!   (actually, I think you guys are probably right here...not only would purchasing a professionally designed and built elevator most likely be more cost-effective, BUT getting it approved by Rich's local Building Inspector would most likely be a heck of a lot easier also...that of course all depends on what purpose Rich has for this)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Quote:
Let me guess here...Clay, YOU'RE the new EASTERN U.S. and Bill, YOU'RE the new WESTERN U.S. Distributors for the Otis Elevator Co. of Farmington CT...RIGHT?!
(actually, I think you guys are probably right here...not only would purchasing a professionally designed and built elevator most likely be more cost-effective, BUT getting it approved by Rich's local Building Inspector would most likely be a heck of a lot easier also...that of course all depends on what purpose Rich has for this)
No but I did stay at the Holiday Inn Express..........
I am a mechanical engineer, and I understand the ramifications of safety and the lack of it, to humans, and to the pocket book.
It may or may not be cost effective depending on the use, but I really can't think of a use that hasn't been designed. Also, I'm sure the internet has plenty of real info on elevator design already in use.
The only elevator I ever designed lifted socks! 
Clay
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Quote:
Quote:
Let me guess here...Clay, YOU'RE the new EASTERN U.S. and Bill, YOU'RE the new WESTERN U.S. Distributors for the Otis Elevator Co. of Farmington CT...RIGHT?!
(actually, I think you guys are probably right here...not only would purchasing a professionally designed and built elevator most likely be more cost-effective, BUT getting it approved by Rich's local Building Inspector would most likely be a heck of a lot easier also...that of course all depends on what purpose Rich has for this)
No but I did stay at the Holiday Inn Express..........
Quote:
I am a mechanical engineer, and I understand the ramifications of safety and the lack of it, to humans, and to the pocket book.
It may or may not be cost effective depending on the use, but I really can't think of a use that hasn't been designed. Also, I'm sure the internet has plenty of real info on elevator design already in use.
The only elevator I ever designed lifted socks!
Clay
Yep. I had a feeling that you had some knowledge and some experience in this regard, alright.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
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actually, it's Pedro y Jose's subway systems of Farmington, New Mexico. Sort of a figurative elevator.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Worn Saddle
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OP
Worn Saddle
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Actually, I hadn't thought of looking on the net. Too obvious, I guess. And the use is for an octagonal, three story house I'm designing. I'll definately look up the net, although the last time I looked into elevators, a long time ago, the cheapest setup was about 250 thou. Also, I'm into designing mechanical things myself. As far as code requirments, I understand them and build accordingly, however I am also not afraid to think outside the box. Thanks for the tips, so far.
Fidelis et Fortis
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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How many floors will it operate on? Were you thinking cables, hydraulics, chains, screws, or pneumatics/vacuum?
Always use fail safe brakes, if you do nothing else!
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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Rich, I can get you some info for a company I used to work for... I've installed a few of those before. If you wanted to sub it out, they would probably go there and install, too. They may even just sell you the parts, it's not too hard for a basic system. Much cheaper than 250 thousand! 
Always remember to be yourself. Unless you suck. Then pretend to be someone else.
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Quote:
Always use fail safe brakes, if you do nothing else!
I don't know, Clay. SOMETIMES even those "fail safe" units don't work as they were designed to, ya know.
Take for instance how THIS one poor guy WENT DOWN in "a blaze of glory" when HIS "Fail Safe" unit failed to perform as it should....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueuauKKjPZI
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Joined: Aug 2008
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Quote:
Quote:
Always use fail safe brakes, if you do nothing else!
I don't know, Clay. SOMETIMES even those "fail safe" units don't work as they were designed to, ya know.
Take for instance how THIS one poor guy WENT DOWN in "a blaze of glory" when HIS "Fail Safe" unit failed to perform as it should....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueuauKKjPZI
LOL thats funny. Never seen that before.
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 8
Complete Newb
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Complete Newb
Joined: Dec 2007
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Look on the net for car lifts and warehouse hydraulic lifts for a reasonable price lift that may work for your needs Try www.completehydraulic.com
John
2007 BA,
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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I worry about the future of our world Dwight. The youth ain't got no culture.  I knew what the link was without clicking 
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Joined: Feb 2005
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Quote:
I worry about the future of our world Dwight. The youth ain't got no culture.
I knew what the link was without clicking
Yep Bill. The "Fail Safe" part in that setup o' mine there juuuuuuust might've been the tipoff, huh?!
THOUGH, one can NEVER get enough of Slim Pickens and his signature "YAAAA-HOOOOO!!! YAAAA-HOOOO!!!" swan song finale there, ya know!
(oh, and yeah, "kids today"!...but whaddaya gonna do, HUH???!!!) 
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Worn Saddle
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OP
Worn Saddle
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I thought my first post defined some of my ideas. I'm thinking that a 8000 pound electric winch (like the one on my 4X4) would provide plenty of lifting power. They have built in brake systems for no slip response. It need to lift to a third floor, say, twenty feet. Possibly use a double cable system on the drum (for safety in case one cable shoud break, which I doubt with a 1/2 inch braided cable. Hoist could fit in the attic. Some kind of stop switch mechanism to stop at the top and bottom floor. Dave, I'm gonna keep you in mind when I get a little farther along with my ideas.
Fidelis et Fortis
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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I saw an elevator for a handicapped person once. It was outside, went up to an open deck. Looked like a boat lift. Had a garage door opener motor with a shaft with webbed belt connected to an aluminum platform. Looked like the absolute minimum to me, but it worked. Your truck winch idea would work, but would be interminably slow.
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Adjunct
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Adjunct
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Rich,
Just north of me in Denver is home to Schumacher Elevator
Small town guy with world wide experience. I've met him years ago, he's a little full of himself but I think your idea would pry intrigue him. Worst he could do is tell you to ****** off!!
ModelMaker
Marv Schumacher
319.984.5676
Last edited by ModelMaker; 02/10/2009 3:11 PM.
Your not the boss of me!!
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Joined: Aug 2008
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Quote:
I thought my first post defined some of my ideas. I'm thinking that a 8000 pound electric winch (like the one on my 4X4) would provide plenty of lifting power. They have built in brake systems for no slip response. It need to lift to a third floor, say, twenty feet. Possibly use a double cable system on the drum (for safety in case one cable shoud break, which I doubt with a 1/2 inch braided cable. Hoist could fit in the attic. Some kind of stop switch mechanism to stop at the top and bottom floor. Dave, I'm gonna keep you in mind when I get a little farther along with my ideas.
You need to think about feet per second too. A winch is S L O W.
Are you only going to stop at the top and the bottom? Who gets control when the elevator is on the other floor?
The safety brakes on an elevator are for ANY release of the cable. Winch brakes can and DO fail.
Clay
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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Again, thanks for the input, fellas. Clay, I have been thinking about the speed. A pulley system could be used to adjust the speed, and while sacrificing pound lift, I would have lots to spare. The control problem is definately something to consider. And I am thinking of failure mechanisms. How about this... Four tubes, attacked to the platform, (sched. 40 pvc?)with tubes inside of them acting as rams and gasketed, letting air out of a relief hole at a set pace, acting as pneumatic resevours, like those on a hatch back lid of a car.
Fidelis et Fortis
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Quote:
The control problem is definately something to consider. And I am thinking of failure mechanisms. How about this... Four tubes, attacked to the platform, (sched. 40 pvc?)with tubes inside of them acting as rams and gasketed, letting air out of a relief hole at a set pace, acting as pneumatic resevours, like those on a hatch back lid of a car.
Here's the biggest thing. A fail safe should not be a wear item. It's something that never is used until it's needed.
The way a real elevator fail safe works is when the cable releases for any reason, it engages.
Your tubes to work effectively would be 3 stories tall by the way. ABOVE or BELOW the elevator.
Clay
PS. check this out: http://science.howstuffworks.com/elevator7.htm
Last edited by frijoli; 02/11/2009 7:16 AM.
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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HAHAHA...this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on this site! You gotta be quite "special" to actually go thru with these...ummm...original...designs.
Make sure to videotape it and put it on youtube so I can get a good laugh when it DOES fail!!
(Maybe I should check back more often there's always something this hilarious being debated).
Mark
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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Ha Ha Ha, I'm familiar with your kind of thinking, Mark. The list of naysayers to inventiveness is only a little longer than all of the clever ideas I mine from this site.
On the other hand, there are guys like Clay who are being critical, but constructively so. Thanks for the web site, Clay! Your comment about wear on a safety mechanism was also astute.
Fidelis et Fortis
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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ah. reminds me of my yute days. 
Blowing gravel off rural roads
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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I know they make personal elevators that are fairly simple. My aunte had very bad knees for most of the time I knew her and used a cane but doctors said she should be in a wheel chair. She was too stubborn for that but she couldn't do stairs so she had an elevator in her house to go from the garage to the first floor. The whole thing was in the garage level and there was acut out in the floor that would lift up when the elevator came up through there. When the elevator was down you could walk over the area. I don't know if that's any help or not but I know they are out there.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Quote:
HAHAHA...this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on this site! You gotta be quite "special" to actually go thru with these...ummm...original...designs.
Make sure to videotape it and put it on youtube so I can get a good laugh when it DOES fail!!
(Maybe I should check back more often there's always something this hilarious being debated).
Maybe, and there's a A** on every forum.
01010100 01110010 01101001 01110101 01101101 01110000 01101000 <3
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: Jul 2007
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Quote:
Quote:
HAHAHA...this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on this site! You gotta be quite "special" to actually go thru with these...ummm...original...designs.
Make sure to videotape it and put it on youtube so I can get a good laugh when it DOES fail!!
(Maybe I should check back more often there's always something this hilarious being debated).
Maybe, and there's a A** on every forum.
Hmmmm, maybe...., but your post is the first I've ever read on here that wished someones idea to fail, presumably to get hurt, and then wanted it videotaped so you could enjoy it! So I won't have to try and label you.
Fidelis et Fortis
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Hey! I say we give Mark here a pass on all this, okay Clay and Rich?! You see it's like this. For YEARS he's been tryin' to be as big an A** as Yours Truly here, and so far he's only been able to work up to the "Jerk Level" occasionally, and that's ONLY when he's had a bad day...like I'm guessin' he must've had when he typed his response in this thread. (yep...I keep tellin' the kid that it take YEARS to get to MY "lofty heights"...or "depths" maybe...BUT like SO of the you friggin' jokers around here, he just WON'T LISTEN to me!!!)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
Hmmmm, maybe...., but your post is the first I've ever read on here that wished someones idea to fail, presumably to get hurt, and then wanted it videotaped so you could enjoy it! So I won't have to try and label you.
Where oh where do I even start? Well I guess the ice is broken, so I already have started...but seriously, you and Clay can call me whatever you want, but hopefully whoever this house is being designed for realizes the sheer shoddiness of the design.
Anytime I hear the phrase "three-story elevator" mixed with "economically", thrown in with "increase speed" and "losing pulling power"...I can't imagine anything good happening. Further mixed with "outside the box" thinking, and PVC failure mechanisms...WOW...hopefully outside the box means you'll never be in the elevator.
An elevator (especially a personnel hoist) is not something any Joe off the street can and is allowed to design. In my opinion (and hopefully that of others as well), outside the box thinking shouldn't happen. There are many tried and true methods which one should stick with.
And don't give me any of that "American Ingenuity" crap either. When other peoples' health (and lives) are at stake, you better do it by the books. You'll never get a PE to stamp your drawings anyways.
Now...you can definitely throw my advice out the window...I am no PE, but still a mining engineer by trade. There are plenty of lifting experts out there...we use them on a regular basis and their designs don't fail.
Personally, I'm in the mining industry with some but limited experience in light construction. Everything we do is submitted upon to an engineering firm working for the owner of the job. The main purpose for this procedure is to keep guys with designs like yours from ever seeing a jobsite. Unless you put some serious thought to your elevator (preferably get some professional help on the design) you ARE a danger.
Mark
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Is it possible you are going exactly the wrong way on it. For a lightweight platform why not push is up. You only have to push it 15-18 feet.
If you have room under the shaft, how bout a JLG type hydraulic lift. Push it up instead of pull. That device like other jacks already has safety claws built in.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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Another good idea to consider. Thanks!
Fidelis et Fortis
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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See now, Mark, you can be civil after all. I don't understand why you couldn't have given reasonable comments like the other fella's from the git go, instead of spouting out personal attacks, like, "special" and "a" something or other. This thread was obviously started by me as a brainstorming excercise so I could learn something. The other fella's contributed useful ideas and critical thinking, which was what I was expecting. I am remaining civil here, now, because other site members have vouched for your character, irregardless of how you have appeared on this thread. I meant no disrespect, and I don't expect any in return.
Fidelis et Fortis
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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I agree with Mark on the safety aspect of your endeavor. There are just too many things that can go wrong for a novice to attempt to re-invent something that has been around for a long time.
I work in construction, heavy equipment to be precise and am also a certified crane inspector. When cranes are used for personnel raising or lowering, they must be thoroughly inspected and certified before and during such use.
I understand your desire to save money, we all want to do that, but safety must be the priority. I have red tagged cranes over vehement protests from everyone from project managers to the operator because of safety issues. Once it cost the company millions of $$ in down time. Tough!
Speaking of construction, have you considered looking into the type of elevator used during construction of multi-story buildings? We call them "manlifts", one of those may fit what you want for a reasonable cost.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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If the users will all be rowdy bikers, I'd consider a catapult instead.
'08 America Blue/White; Custom Headlamps, Custom Lowers, Clearview 20", Bafflectomy
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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Yep, I am looking at those types of lifts. It seems to make good sense to adapt something which has already had the engineering done on it. I am not looking at totally reinventing the wheel.
Fidelis et Fortis
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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The only thing with a manlift, Rich, is that you will either have to make a ramp to get down, or have it sit in a pit so it lowers to ground level. The platform sits at about 4' high when it's completely lowered.
Always remember to be yourself. Unless you suck. Then pretend to be someone else.
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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In a slightly different vein, I an somewhat puzzed by some of the responses to my queries and ruminations. Some of you seem to be totally opposed to the idea of creating something from other things for a different use. However, there has been lots of comment and critique, on this site, of radically altering our machines, as well as admiration of total custom machines, probably few of which would ever pass engineering standards for safety and reliability. Such custom alterations and fabrications are then ridden at 60 mph or more, in traffic, with passengers. Lots of folks admire this. But if one talks of building a lift that propels a rider twenty feet in the air, safety standards and lack of feasibility are spoken of. I'm not trying to be a Smart A. I just find it interesting and puzzling. 
Fidelis et Fortis
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Adjunct
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Adjunct
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Quote:
In a slightly different vein, I an somewhat puzzed by some of the responses to my queries and ruminations. Some of you seem to be totally opposed to the idea of creating something from other things for a different use. However, there has been lots of comment and critique, on this site, of radically altering our machines, as well as admiration of total custom machines, probably few of which would ever pass engineering standards for safety and reliability. Such custom alterations and fabrications are then ridden at 60 mph or more, in traffic, with passengers. Lots of folks admire this. But if one talks of building a lift that propels a rider twenty feet in the air, safety standards and lack of feasibility are spoken of. I'm not trying to be a Smart A. I just find it interesting and puzzling.
Consider the bolded words in your statement. Yes we like to rod and mod bikes, but this is more adapting them for our use than outright fabrication of a new bike. Few here would advise building one from scratch. And PVC tubes would be right out. 
In my opinion you would be better served by modifying an existing elevator system to suit your needs. Perhaps you could obtain the lifting mechanism from an established system and build your own platform/car.
2018 FLHCS
2014 Surly Straggler - 16,000 miles and counting!
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Re: Calling all mechanical engineers
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
An apple is crisp, juicy, and sweet or tart depending on the variety and has an edible skin, whereas an orange is juicy, segmented, also sweet or tart, but not crisp and must be peeled before eating.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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