 How Much in the Hose?
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Most new gas stations have pumps with only one hose for all grades of gas. I avoid these because I'm concerned about diluting the premium I buy with whatever is left in the hose from the last customer. Sometimes I think this is just worrying over nothing, though. Does anyone here know how much fuel is actually in the hose?
'08 America Blue/White; Custom Headlamps, Custom Lowers, Clearview 20", Bafflectomy
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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Should be Riding
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Should be Riding
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Cant be more than a quart or so. Our bikes dont needd premium to run well anyway. They'll run just fine on 87 octane (without any ethanol garbage) or 89 octane if it has the ethanol garbage in it.
Soren
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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Loquacious
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Why buy premium? The vertical twins don't need it.
Doesn't Triumph recommend 87 octane?
I'm not a gas pump engineer, but I'd guess the fuel shutoff is at the pump side of the hose, rather than the nozzle, to avoid a catastrophe if the hose breaks.
In NJ we don't have self-serve. When buying premium, many gas pump jockeys will tap out whatever gas is in the line onto the pavement before handing you the nozzle. It's never more than a few drops.
Kevin - Luceo Non Uro
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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Oil Expert
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My book says 89 octane, so the mid-grade is what she gets.
Keith
Houston
Ridin'Texas
'04 Speedmaster
AI removed, Pingle, UNI Filter, 1 shim, straight-through slash-cut TORs, Stage 1 DynaJet, 140 mains, 3 turns, 16/42 final drive, 115K
2020 T120 Black
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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Loquacious
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Quote:
My book says 89 octane, so the mid-grade is what she gets.
I stand corrected. It's been a while since I gassed up a Triumph.
Kevin - Luceo Non Uro
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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Loquacious
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I always run premium in mine now for the simple fact that I do get better mileage with it. I also feel that it runs better, especially on road trips with altitude changes. Don't ask me how or why, don't care. What's the difference - 50 or 60 cents per fill up?
YMMV
Stewart
.......
"It's outside your field of expertise."
"Poppycock normally is."
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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Loquacious
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im sitting in front of a pipe conversion chart based on metal piping. (not rubber but it should be close based on the inside diameters) Do you figure the inside diameter is about an inch based on the outside diamter of about 1.5"? If so based on the copper/steel numbers its approx. .045 gallons per lineal foot based on 1" diameter.
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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Adjunct
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Quote:
... In NJ ... many gas pump jockeys will tap out whatever gas is in the line onto the pavement ...
Ever the environmentally concious, those Jersey gas station guys 
SFC, US Army (Ret)
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Quote:
Quote:
... In NJ ... many gas pump jockeys will tap out whatever gas is in the line onto the pavement ...
Ever the environmentally concious, those Jersey gas station guys
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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Quote:
Quote:
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... In NJ ... many gas pump jockeys will tap out whatever gas is in the line onto the pavement ...
Ever the environmentally concious, those Jersey gas station guys
And youse guys haven't even seen the restrooms! 
Seriously, I spit more than what comes out of the hose. It makes me wonder where the actual shutoff is.
Kevin - Luceo Non Uro
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Quote:
It makes me wonder where the actual shutoff is.
Well Kevin, from what I hear, ultimately THAT is located somewhere in the vicinity of Saudi Arabia!!!
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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Learned Hand
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Quote:
Quote:
I'd guess the fuel shutoff is at the pump side of the hose, rather than the nozzle.
No, the mechanical shutoff is at the nozzle. Otherwise, all the fuel in the hose would continue to spill out after shutoff.
Quote:
When buying premium, many gas pump jockeys will tap out whatever gas is in the line onto the pavement before handing you the nozzle. It's never more than a few drops.
I do the same thing, but it only clears out the nozzle. The hose is still full. As for octane, this compression ratio needs at least 92, and I don't care what Triumph says (I don't oil the chain every 200 miles either). The only way to stop a motor with this CR from rattling at low RPM with mid-grade or regular is to retard the timing.
'08 America Blue/White; Custom Headlamps, Custom Lowers, Clearview 20", Bafflectomy
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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Quote:
...based on the copper/steel numbers its approx. .045 gallons per lineal foot based on 1" diameter.
If that accurately represents a gas pump (?), then a five foot hose would hold about a quart. I guess that's OK, but much more than that would concern me. It's bad enough paying these prices for low octane fuel, let alone having it diluted with something even worse. There was a time when octanes around 92 were considered Regular.
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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I'm pretty sure the hose is emptied back from where it came after every pump. Its the same even on a regular hose, safety and all that.
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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Yeah theres no way a quart is coming out its barely a mouthful. It cant matter that much in a couple gallons worth.
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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Quote:
I'm pretty sure the hose is emptied back from where it came after every pump. Its the same even on a regular hose, safety and all that.
My thoughts exactly.
Kevin - Luceo Non Uro
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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Learned Hand
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Quote:
Yeah theres no way a quart is coming out its barely a mouthful.
Isn't that what she said? 
Ride On!
Airguy
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You gotta' be smart to be lazy(and get a job done)
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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UH OH?....keep on the downlow dude someone could be reading this
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Quote:
Quote:
Yeah theres no way a quart is coming out its barely a mouthful.
Isn't that what she said?
Quote:
UH OH?....keep on the downlow dude someone could be reading this
Yep! Tom's right here ya know, Keith!
Monica Lewinsky could be surfin' the Worldwide Web at this very moment and could suddenly develop a heretofore unseen keen interest in Triumph motorcycles!!! 
(yep...so ya better watch what you're sayin' here, dude!!!) 
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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Quote:
I'm pretty sure the hose is emptied back from where it came after every pump. Its the same even on a regular hose, safety and all that.
No.
You know that handle that you squeeze? That's the shut off valve. The fuel that's in the hose and the pump stay there until it's displaced by more.
You get about 1/3 gallon of whatever the person before you bought. It's really not enough to be concerned about, but if it makes you feel better, follow a Porsche or BMW or something else that probably takes premium.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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Bar Shake
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Quote:
There was a time when octanes around 92 were considered Regular.
At that time a different formula (Research Octane Number) was used to calculate the octane rating.
Another common formula is the Motor Octane Number, usually 8-10 points lower than RON.
Using the current formula (R+M)/2 on the old 92 (RON) regular would get you 87.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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Adjunct
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm pretty sure the hose is emptied back from where it came after every pump. Its the same even on a regular hose, safety and all that.
No.
You know that handle that you squeeze? That's the shut off valve. The fuel that's in the hose and the pump stay there until it's displaced by more.
You get about 1/3 gallon of whatever the person before you bought. It's really not enough to be concerned about, but if it makes you feel better, follow a Porsche or BMW or something else that probably takes premium.
pretty sure thats not the case in the UK the pumps all have to have a vacuum recovery system on them.
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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I don't know about the UK, but it is the case in the US. I try to avoid single hose pumps. When riding with my bike group and stopping, I usually go second to be sure I've got mid grade or better. On some pumps where the hose is attached on top, the amount could be almost a gallon.
Bob
2005 America, 904cc - sold. 2014 Trophy SE.
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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Quote:
...the amount could be almost a gallon.
Okay folks, some math to help alleviate the conjecture here and let you all know that you are in fact sweating some miniscule shite.
Let us assume a 1in. ID for fuel hose (pretty reasonable in my estimation). The volume of the fuel contained in the hose would be:
Volume= Area (ID) x Length = Pi*r^2 * L = Pi*(d/2)^2 * L
Plugging in some numbers:
V= 3.14 * (1/2)^2 * L = 3.14/4*L
V= 0.785in^2 * L in.
So this says for 1 foot of hose (12in.) there is 9.42in^3 of volume. 1 gallon is equivalent to 231in^3. So, 1 foot of hose holds 9.42/231gal or .04gal/ft. To get a gallon of gas in the hose you would need 24.5ft of hose. I would think that most gas pump hoses are on the order of about 8ft or so giving roughly 1/3 of a gallon. If I fill up at the pump and put about 3 gallons in the tank this amounts to 1/9th of the fuel added or about 11% of the fuel addition.
So how does this affect the octane rating of the gas? I would think we could do some weighted averaging to obtain the final fuel addition octane (assuming the last guy put in the cheap stuff): ((1/3)*87+(8/3)*92)/3)= 91.4 or ((1/3)*87+(8/3)*89)/3)= 88.8. So the rough percentage change for each octane rating would be a 0.65% reduction in the 92 octane rating and a 0.22% reduction in the 89 octane rating.
In other words – STOP SWEATING THE SMALL SHITE!
Here endeth the lesson.
Ride On!
Airguy
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You gotta' be smart to be lazy(and get a job done)
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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Quote:
In other words – STOP SWEATING THE SMALL SHITE!
I wonder if it's small shite to the oil companies. Doesn't this mean they're dispensing millions of gallons of Regular at Premium prices?
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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Should be Riding
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But then premium comes out for regular prices, too. 400% profit, I don't think they are too worried.
Always remember to be yourself. Unless you suck. Then pretend to be someone else.
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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Quote:
Yeah theres no way a quart is coming out its barely a mouthful. It cant matter that much in a couple gallons worth.
+1! I don't know where these others get their fuel, but I have often pulled the trigger before flip'en the lever for my purchase, and i've never seen a 1/10 of a shot glass full!
Wouldn't it be nice to get a FREE $1.00 worth of gas (when it was $4.00 a gallon), when I was only getting a gallons worth for my lawn mower!
When I pay for, and put gas in my 1 gallon gas can, I get EXACTLY 1 gallon!
Now if 1/4 of it was the grade pumped before me, and only 3/4 of my grade, It's NEVER made a noticable difference!
And you may see me tonight
With an illegal smile
J. Prine
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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Quote:
I wonder if it's small shite to the oil companies. Doesn't this mean they're dispensing millions of gallons of Regular at Premium prices?
Wouldn't law of averages mean APPROX. for every million gallons of regular at premium prices, a million gallons of premium went for regular prices?
And you may see me tonight
With an illegal smile
J. Prine
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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If forced to use a single-dispense nozzle I blend my own, premium first. At least that way I have a better shot of getting what I paid for. And Big Bill is correct about the valve location.
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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Wow! Keith - nice to know someone in the group can do the math. I won't worry about the 1/3 gallon, but I'll still fill up after my friend that always buys premium when I can.
Bob
2005 America, 904cc - sold. 2014 Trophy SE.
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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Fe Butt
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So, I'm guessin' there are a whole lot of you folks around here who's engines start pinging because of pre-ignition if you use 87 octane, huh?! That's funny. The few times I've used 87, I've never had that happen at all! (and BTW...I STILL say the "real" shutoff valve is located somewhere in Saudi Arabia!!!...SO THERE!!!) 
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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I ran 87 a few times initially without noticing any problems. I stuck with the 89 as that is what was recommended by Triumph. Now that my compression is higher than stock, I definitely stick with the 89.
Bob
2005 America, 904cc - sold. 2014 Trophy SE.
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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Can't say I've heard my engine ping. Too many other noises in the background, like exhaust, slapping pistons, tappets, ringing fins, screaming pedestrians........ my singing  So I don't need a higher octane. 
12 Rocket Roadster
03 Bonneville America
69 BSA Firebird Scrambler
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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Learned Hand
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Quote:
I wonder if it's small shite to the oil companies. Doesn't this mean they're dispensing millions of gallons of Regular at Premium prices?
Quite the contrary. The majority of people do not buy premium but regular (87 octane). They probably sell more of their premium gas at regular prices than the converse. I have no clue on the percentages so i cannot do the math. Somehow though I think if it was a real problem the bean counters would force the engineers to find a solution to that problem. As the old saying goes, follow the beans, they will always leave a trail. My point is to stop using emotional, gut-feel intutition and think about things before acting. That is what gets us in trouble as opposed to reasonable, fact based rational thought. And that is all I have to say about that (for now). 
Ride On!
Airguy
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You gotta' be smart to be lazy(and get a job done)
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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Oh yeah, I like bourbon too. If that were dispensed by hoses. I would never tolerate that swill!
Ride On!
Airguy
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You gotta' be smart to be lazy(and get a job done)
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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Loquacious
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Quote:
Sometimes I think this is just worrying over nothing, though.
Dang Keith, you're pretty smart for a wild dog mf'er.
Keith's calc is appropriately erred to the side of generous fact finding, when indeed, vapor recovery type coaxial gas pump hoses are typically 5/8" ID for the product channel, so, it's even less of a dilution than he indicated.
To further complicate the issue, most modern gas stations have but two tanks - 87 octane, and 93 octane. Mid grade is blended within the gas station's dispenser pumps. For those stations with an actual in-ground mid grade tank, the trucker will blend the 89 octane usually during loading or occasionally at delivery.
I doubt the gas industry is too worried about giving anything away, for all the gas is the same base stock with a little bitta extra octane additive for high test, purchased in mighty, mighty large quantities at a time.
Now with all that in mind, I'm getting a headache.
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
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Quote:
I don't know where these others get their fuel, but I have often pulled the trigger before flip'en the lever for my purchase, and i've never seen a 1/10 of a shot glass full!
The valve needs pressure from the pump to open. That 1/10th shot is just the residual pressure from the previous use.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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Quote:
Quote:
I wonder if it's small shite to the oil companies. Doesn't this mean they're dispensing millions of gallons of Regular at Premium prices?
Quite the contrary. The majority of people do not buy premium but regular (87 octane). They probably sell more of their premium gas at regular prices than the converse.
Your logic is backwards. If most people buy Regular, that means nearly all the people buying Premium are getting a hose's worth of Regular from the previous customer. The converse will occur much more rarely.
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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Since this is as much fun as oil talk, let me introduce a curve ball: The higher the octane, the further delayed is the ignition of the fuel
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Re: How Much in the Hose?
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Ummm, no my logic is not backwards. The odds of a person buying a small amount of higher octane gas is way much more likely than the odds of some high price, ferrari driving, rich guy that should be taxed more mofo since it is the poor, escort driving bastage that buys most of the gas. Lemme set up an example for you if I must. Let us assume 10% of gas purchasers get the high octane stuff. Totally completely made up number. That means that 1 out of 10 people have a shot at getting that great, great octane boost as opposed to 9 out of 10 of the rich guys getting a shot at the cheap stuff. Regardeless my point is that it is such a freaking small amount, even when looking at a bike's fill up, that it is not even worth close to worrying about. Take that 1/3 gallon and do the math when filling up a 30 gallon, gas guzzling, union driving guy's SUV. That would be equivalent to 1/90'th of the fill up. Gosh darn oil companies making a profit on their product, If only we could regulate that more closely.
Ride On!
Airguy
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You gotta' be smart to be lazy(and get a job done)
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