 Re: Why do igniters fail
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Message was read on: 14/07/2008 09:20:40
Subject: Gill igniters(CDI)
To: lynne.kerrigan@gill.co.uk
Sent: 12/07/2008 21:16:08
Email by Gill, let's see if we get a reply.......
Also read by Motorcycle News
To: lynne.kerrigan@gill.co.uk
Cc: Marc Potter; Steve Rose
Subject: Gill igniters(CDI)
Sent: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 21:16:08 +0100
Last edited by birchr; 07/14/2008 5:37 AM.
Ray(UK)
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Re: Why do igniters fail
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Also found this why searching the net CoilsJust emailed this company to find out if they have heard anything about Gill igniter failures
Ray(UK)
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 Re: Why do igniters fail
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Just to put my 2 cents in:
I have an '03 Speedmaster, the Ignitor failed January this year, at 12,000 miles. Replaced it with one off an '02 America.
Steelheart- '03 Speedmaster Black/Yellow
The Hayabusa Killa
16" Shorties/140 mains/Airbox drilled
Procom CDI
"There is no cure for Celibacy. But we can treat the symptoms."
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Re: Why do igniters fail
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Reply from Web BikeWorld
Hi Ray:
Thanks for visiting webBikeWorld. The article we posted on the coils was written by a contributor...I haven't heard anything about other Triumph problems. Thanks for the heads-up.
Rick.
--
Rick Korchak
Ray(UK)
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Re: Why do igniters fail
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Quote:
It's probably more likely that the voltage spike is feedback from the coil's high tension output and due to a poor grounding scheme.
Part of a recent wiring project on my part was a redoux of the frame, engine, and harness grounding.
Motor mounts and the two rear fender bolts under the seat got involved in the process.
But, I had never done anything about the sloppy coil primary connections 'till recently.
I'm currently fighting a miss that I'm almost certain is fuel related, but thought I should take the coils out of the question before proceeding further.
As it turned out, one of the terminals was slid back like it had been moving around on there.
Any of us can certainly come up with their own plan on this, but I'll relate what I did.
Pull the coils off their mounts.
Disconnect and grease terminals.
Give the connector shells a little squeeze with ignition pliers or equivalent.
Reattach and remount.
Terminals should go on kinda hard.
The reason for pulling the coils down is so you can get behind the terminals and make sure they're on all the way.
Absent this step, they may just slide back in the shell as it is pushed on.
Now the relevance to this thread:
Is it possible that intermittent coil primary connections could contribute to ignitoer failure?
I've lost two of 'em.
Said Molly to James, that's a fine motorbike.
Richard Thompson
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Re: Why do igniters fail
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I have an 02, post-fire, America, with 21,000 miles on it. Garage kept, and minimal riding in the rain. I have had no problems with my ingnitor. However, I had replaced my stock coils & wires with Nology Coils & Wires and also the iridium spark plugs. Of note, as I remember, the wires attached to the coils by a different, even opposite, method (which was inside and which was outside), and the terminals were better/firmer. However, that was a long time ago. Maybe somebody replaced theirs more recently and can remember better. Bad connections and bad grounds can do terrible and unpredictable things.
--Tom
02 TBA; 130 mains; TBS; Nology Coils&Wires;Unifilter/opened Airbox; -AI/snorkels; -2 baffles;Progressive 440s & Springs
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Re: Why do igniters fail
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Quote:
I'm currently fighting a miss that I'm almost certain is fuel related, but thought I should take the coils out of the question before proceeding further.
Did redoing the coils fix the miss. The reason I ask is, While I had the first replaced igniter on I had a miss when I went into a sharp curve. At first it only seemed to miss on a sharp right curve then it would do it on a sharp left or right curve. I was SURE it was fuel related and was going to mess with the carbs a bit, but that igniter went out and when I got the third igniter on I noticed right away that the miss was gone. I still haven’t messed with the carbs and the bike is running strong. I’m thinking the miss was caused by the igniter or the grounds cause the carbs wouldn’t fix themselves. I tightened the coil connections when the first igniter failed, they were rather loose. I rechecked the coil connections when I first discovered the miss and they were tight and the igniter still failed.
Triumph told my dealer they think the first igniter they sent was a bad igniter they got back from one of the closed down Triumph dealerships, I don’t know… but I guess it’s possible.
Has anyone noticed a miss or any other odd things happening before their igniter failed.
If we gather enough information, we have the brains here to figer out the flaw. I know we do! If we keep talking it out we’ll find it.
I've become comfortably numb
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Re: Why do igniters fail
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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All three of my igniters were replaced after the bike going on to one cyclinder funnily enough the left cyclinder would not fire.
Anyone heard anything from GILL ( I doubt they will reply)
Ray(UK)
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Re: Why do igniters fail
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Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
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Mine just quit. No warning at all. Just stuck on the side of the road.
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Re: Why do igniters fail
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3/4 Throttle
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3/4 Throttle
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Quote:
Mine just quit. No warning at all. Just stuck on the side of the road.
Is that 3? Oh my.
Just had my '03 speedy done but have only put on 100 miles though since the renewal of ignition.
it's gd ironic that my bsa used to crap out on me all over town but i just figured "Lucas, what the H." A rectifier is a lot cheaper. On the old ones an eletronic igniton can replace the points and a pod can replace the rectifier and now my beezer starts easy and has no problems except it wants leaded high octane petrol.
what about a rocket tourer? $$ 
seems like the sides of the failures could shed some light on this. mine was always left...
cat
Last edited by cat; 07/16/2008 6:45 PM.
George in Easy Rider: "Oh, oh I've got a helmet! I got a beauty!"
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Email reply from GILL
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Dear Mr. Birch,
I am really sorry that you haven't had a reply sooner. I have researched this about as deeply as I can now. We have had very few igniters back for investigation, and not received any kind of feedback that there is a large failure rate in out of warranty units. I have been to the highest level within Gill with this. There is genuinely no knowledge of a system weakness, or problem with the application of the product. You really need to talk to the bike's manufacturer.
I am sorry that I can't help you further.
Best Regards
David.
________________________________________
--------------------------------------------------------------
This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential and
intended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom
they are addressed. If you have received this email in error
please notify the system manager. Please note that any views or
opinions presented in this email are solely those of the author
and do not necessarily represent those of the company. Finally,
the recipient should check this email and any attachments for
the presence of viruses. The company accepts no liability for
any damage caused by any virus transmitted by this email.
Gill Instruments Ltd is a limited company registered in England
and Wales. Registered number: 2281574. Registered office:
The George Business Centre, Christchurch Road, New Milton.
BH25 6QJ
Ray(UK)
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Re: Email reply from GILL
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Learned Hand
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Was that a buck being passed?
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Re: Email reply from GILL
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3/4 Throttle
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well, if one goes out while a rider enters freeway traffic and someone dies, that will bring a fresh investigation.
Of course the bike would be smashed and i wonder if the problem could be traced.
i still say we need a count on these failures.
cat
George in Easy Rider: "Oh, oh I've got a helmet! I got a beauty!"
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Re: Email reply from GILL
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Quote:
well, if one goes out while a rider enters freeway traffic and someone dies, that will bring a fresh investigation.
Of course the bike would be smashed and i wonder if the problem could be traced.
i still say we need a count on these failures.
cat
+1
maybe the mods can set up a page to keep it up top and just post in it if you have had replacements, year of bike and when
Ray(UK)
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 Re: Email reply from GILL
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Looking at my bike last night while putting it back together.I noticed the ignitor on the left side of the frame.The thought struck me,I wonder if people are tying up the left side spark plug wire close to or in contact with the ignitor.If it rains out or is damp out and the wire is defective or worn at all, the spark could be jumping to the ignitor box causing it to short out.Just an idea.I ran the wire during assembly as far from the ignitor as I could because of the possibility of spark jumping. 
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Re: Email reply from GILL
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Learned Hand
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Well they ended up having to replace the igniter again. So thats 4 now. Not counting the one that blew when the replaced #3. They popped in that time and blew it on the test ride.
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Re: Email reply from GILL
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3/4 Throttle
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that's $3000 dollars of ignitors...
5 x $600.00
cat
George in Easy Rider: "Oh, oh I've got a helmet! I got a beauty!"
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Re: Email reply from GILL
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Worn Saddle
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Quote:
Looking at my bike last night while putting it back together.I noticed the ignitor on the left side of the frame.The thought struck me,I wonder if people are tying up the left side spark plug wire close to or in contact with the ignitor.If it rains out or is damp out and the wire is defective or worn at all, the spark could be jumping to the ignitor box causing it to short out.Just an idea.I ran the wire during assembly as far from the ignitor as I could because of the possibility of spark jumping.
That's actually a pretty good observation. Consider this: 1. it seems like the majority of failures involve the left cylinder misfiring, or in my case not firing at all. 2. the Bonneville's ignitor is under the seat behind the battery well away from the ignition coils; they seem to have a much, much lower failure rate and I can't believe its a 360 vs 270 timing issue.
Maybe relocation well away from the high voltage ignition coils is a valid cure.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Email reply from GILL
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Quote:
Quote:
Looking at my bike last night while putting it back together.I noticed the ignitor on the left side of the frame.The thought struck me,I wonder if people are tying up the left side spark plug wire close to or in contact with the ignitor.If it rains out or is damp out and the wire is defective or worn at all, the spark could be jumping to the ignitor box causing it to short out.Just an idea.I ran the wire during assembly as far from the ignitor as I could because of the possibility of spark jumping.
That's actually a pretty good observation. Consider this: 1. it seems like the majority of failures involve the left cylinder misfiring, or in my case not firing at all. 2. the Bonneville's ignitor is under the seat behind the battery well away from the ignition coils; they seem to have a much, much lower failure rate and I can't believe its a 360 vs 270 timing issue.
Maybe relocation well away from the high voltage ignition coils is a valid cure.
Maybe an email to Gill and ask if this is a possibility or Cat shoot one over to old blighty and have them test it for you..
Ray(UK)
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Re: Email reply from GILL
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Speedblue may be on to something, about sparking from the high voltage spark plug wires to the ignitor. I have the Nology wires and have never had the problem, but as I remember, the Nology wires have an outer sleeve that is grounded to the frame by a nearby bolt into the frame. If I remember that correctly, then that spark plug wire shielding would preclude any sparking over to the ignitor. My question becomes: "HAS ANYBODY HAD AN IGNITOR FAILURE WHILE USING THE NOLOGY SPARK PLUG WIRES (which are shielded)??"
A secondary question might be: "HAS ANYBODY HAD AN IGNITOR FAILURE WHILE USING ANY PREMIUM SPARK PLUG WIRES??".
--Tom
02 TBA; 130 mains; TBS; Nology Coils&Wires;Unifilter/opened Airbox; -AI/snorkels; -2 baffles;Progressive 440s & Springs
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Re: Email reply from GILL
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Quote:
Speedblue may be on to something
This is interesting,sounds quite possible. We could be on the right track here or at least close.
I've become comfortably numb
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Re: Email reply from GILL
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3/4 Throttle
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3/4 Throttle
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hmmm... before i found out my ignitor was bad, I bought (but didn't install) some used nology coils off a wrecked bike. i think i'll install them now. on the hot wires, where does the extra wire/cable go that the stockers don't have? hot wires nology coils Thanks, Cat 
Last edited by cat; 07/23/2008 9:20 PM.
George in Easy Rider: "Oh, oh I've got a helmet! I got a beauty!"
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Re: Email reply from GILL
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Looking under my gas tank (without removing the tank) the grounding lead from both spark plug wires seems to be secured to the bottom of the frame tube, approximately directly above the front edge of the engine cam cover, on the right side. There were two small horizontally and traversely mounted bolts, painted black, probably about 6mm dia. I replaced the forward bolt with a stainless steel bolt, after making sure that bolt made a good clean ground to the motorcycle frame. Hope this makes sense, but I did not remove the tank to get a better look.
--Tom
02 TBA; 130 mains; TBS; Nology Coils&Wires;Unifilter/opened Airbox; -AI/snorkels; -2 baffles;Progressive 440s & Springs
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Re: Email reply from GILL
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3/4 Throttle
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Just for curiosities sake........ the people that have been having igniter failures, how many accessories or changes do you have on your bikes? ie, Driving lights, LED Lights etc. Could it be possible that a spike is being sent to the igniter from the charging system trying to keep up with additional lighting and puts out a spike and fries the igniter? Not an electrical guru but just a thought. I have an 02 America and knock on wood but no problems and I have NO additional electrical accessories although I am running the NOLOGY Coils & Wires. Again just a thought maybe everyone is looking at the wrong area, maybe charging system sending too much power to igniter????????????? OK electrical gurus out there give us your thoughts! 
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Re: Email reply from GILL
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Along this vein: I have an 02 TBA with Nology wires & coils and no ignitor problems. I am running two extra 55 watt miniture driving lights (Optimus as I remember) placed between my front forks. These are wired thought a OEM Triumph light bar wiring harness. I believe this used the spare 10 amp fuse made for that purpose.
I am also running extra LEDs in my rear stop/turn signal housings, while keeping the original system intact.
How accessories are wired might have an effect on the ignitor.
What might be necessary is for each person with an ignitor failure to document their non-Triumph modifications to see if there is anything in common between them that would be suspect.
--Tom
02 TBA; 130 mains; TBS; Nology Coils&Wires;Unifilter/opened Airbox; -AI/snorkels; -2 baffles;Progressive 440s & Springs
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Re: Email reply from GILL
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
How accessories are wired might have an effect on the ignitor.
I'm not 100% certain and Ray will answer this better than me but I'm sure Ray's 04 had nothing wired into it that wasn't original. I think he had a light bar, but knowing Ray it would be OEM, so shouldn't be the cause. He didn't even have an alarm. All his electrics would 100% as per it left the factory.
Yet 4 ignitors later...and he's got rid.
So sorry to blow you down.....
Gina
03 America - Pretty stock - except the TBS wheel... 
06 America - missing, presumed in bits. With it's TBS wheel... 
09 America - It's very blue....
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Re: Email reply from GILL
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The only nonstock electrical items I have are wires (NGK) and plugs (NGK) no additional lights etc.
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Re: Email reply from GILL
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That still leaves my question about sparking from spark plug wires to the igniter: Quote:
"HAS ANYBODY HAD AN IGNITOR FAILURE WHILE USING THE NOLOGY SPARK PLUG WIRES (which are shielded)??"
--Tom
02 TBA; 130 mains; TBS; Nology Coils&Wires;Unifilter/opened Airbox; -AI/snorkels; -2 baffles;Progressive 440s & Springs
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Re: Email reply from GILL
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Loquacious
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I had bad igniter problems a couple of years ago on my 05 America. I ended up swapping the two coils (dealer's request) and finally they replaced both coils and the igniter at the same time (on warranty). They also adjusted the "whatchamacallit" gap to the new factory standard. This was over a year and half ago - no problems since.
All the electrical stuff on my bike is still stock.
Bob
2005 America, 904cc - sold. 2014 Trophy SE.
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Re: Email reply from GILL
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Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
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Quote:
Quote:
How accessories are wired might have an effect on the ignitor.
I'm not 100% certain and Ray will answer this better than me but I'm sure Ray's 04 had nothing wired into it that wasn't original. I think he had a light bar, but knowing Ray it would be OEM, so shouldn't be the cause. He didn't even have an alarm. All his electrics would 100% as per it left the factory.
Yet 4 ignitors later...and he's got rid.
So sorry to blow you down.....
The only extra thing was the Triumph accessory skt, but never used the light bar and never used the accessory socket
Ray(UK)
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