 Re: Weisco Big-Bore Cometh
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Worn Saddle
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BT,
Just a thought, but take your carb intake manifolds to the machine shop so they can "line" up the intake ports to perfectly match the manifolds.
A word to the wise is not necessary. It is the stupid ones who need the advice.
Pat
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Re: Weisco Big-Bore Cometh
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Pat,
I need more information. I found the Carrillo Industries website, and they say they offer connecting rods for Triumph Motorcycles. Also, Bonnevilleperformance.com mentions "Carrillo Forged Rods" there. Are they readly available? Cripes, - if I can just have these installed while my bottom-end is opened - I'll do it.
Input, input!
-BT
"Speedmaster" is a title not a name, - and the title is not plural.
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Re:Stokers, rods and crank-pins...
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Hi Pat - forgive me, but isn't the "stroke" of the engine determined by the offset between the crank axis and the big-end crank pin? The swept voume is determined by the distance between the position of the crank pin at the bottom of the stroke and its position 180 degrees later at the top of the stroke. Moving the crank pin outwards will increase this distance, moving it in reduces it. Just changing the rod length will not alter the stroke - all you will do is move the swept volume up or down the cylinder - but it will remain the same. When a "stroker" crank is fitted, the crank pin is moved away from the crank axis (relative to stock) to increase the swept volume - and the rod length may be changed to stop the piston being pulled out of the bottom of the bore or to avoid the piston hitting the valves/head ...Is there enough "meat" in the crank webs to accommodate a moved crank pin and is there enough clearance between the rods and the bottom of the wiseco liners?
Regards
Jan
Never whistle while you're ******....!
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Re: Weisco Big-Bore Cometh
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Hi BT - forged rods & pistons are the way to go for high rpm reliability but big $$$. Also, when I take a motor down, but do not split the cases, I like to put a cardboard tube around the con-rods to protect them as if they fall against the sharp lip of the crankcase (where the barrels will sit) this can actually initiate a surface defect at the point of contact that can ultimately lead to cracking and then rod failure. Of course, remove tubes before reassemby....  Regards Jan
Never whistle while you're ******....!
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Re:Stokers, rods and crank-pins...
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Anonymous
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Quote:
Hi Pat - forgive me, but isn't the "stroke" of the engine determined by the offset between the crank axis and the big-end crank pin? The swept voume is determined by the distance between the position of the crank pin at the bottom of the stroke and its position 180 degrees later at the top of the stroke. Moving the crank pin outwards will increase this distance, moving it in reduces it. Just changing the rod length will not alter the stroke - all you will do is move the swept volume up or down the cylinder - but it will remain the same. When a "stroker" crank is fitted, the crank pin is moved away from the crank axis (relative to stock) to increase the swept volume - and the rod length may be changed to stop the piston being pulled out of the bottom of the bore or to avoid the piston hitting the valves/head ...Is there enough "meat" in the crank webs to accommodate a moved crank pin and is there enough clearance between the rods and the bottom of the wiseco liners?
Regards
Jan
..... just what I was thinking Jan *gulp* ..... 
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And while you've got the head off, have a look at the AI hole. Just had a wild idea - could you get another spark plug in there? I seem to remeber reading that it is the same thread as the plug hole. If this is the case, and the tip of the plug emerges from the head at about the same distance as the proper plug, then there could be a possibility of using a twin-plug setup for each cylinder that might provide a useful power gain. Of course, you would need new coils but there are plenty of those out there (dynafire etc. etc.). There again, this might not work at all but worth a try, I suppose
Regards
Jan
Never whistle while you're ******....!
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Re: Weisco Big-Bore Cometh
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Quote:
Just had a wild idea - could you get another spark plug in there?
Like my old Alfa 2.0l Twin Spark!!!!!
The words: shovel, hot and sh!t spring to mind .... 
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Re:Stokers, rods and crank-pins...
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Worn Saddle
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Good point, I stand corrected in my description, yours is much more accurate. Whip me, beat me, make me write bad checks.
A word to the wise is not necessary. It is the stupid ones who need the advice.
Pat
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Re:Stokers, rods and crank-pins...
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Having had the benefit of being able to think about this without a hangover (!) it's boot out of gob time!  I would, therefore, like to apologise...shortening the rod will indeed increase the cylinder capacity but the CR (compression ratio) will also fall so the power increase (if any) might not be what you would expect...increasing the swept volume is really the way to go but of course you then have to use spacers etc. to ensure the piston at TDC clears the head and to maintain the correct CR. Regards Jan
Never whistle while you're ******....!
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Re:Stokers, rods and crank-pins...
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Learned Hand
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Why would you want a spark plug in the exaust port?!
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Re:Stokers, rods and crank-pins...
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I had the chance to ride witht the Southbay guys two weeks ago. They had two Thruxtons bumped up to 1140's. Very quick. I don't want to get into a Southbay thing , just bring it up cuz I was with them. For myself they are going to do the work thnxgvgng week on the bigbore. He'll stand by the warranty and his work. In the end , it'll work out cost wise. When I bring mine in in two weeks we'll be going out for a ride on their Thruxtons......... uhmmmm I wonder how much that will end up costing me after I get a feel of that power?
Vic
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Re:Stokers, rods and crank-pins...
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Does the AI feed into the exhaust tract or is it directly into the combustion chamber? If the former, then yes..a lot of twaddle..but the visual geometry seems to indicste into the top of the CC..what is the truth, please?
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Re:Stokers, rods and crank-pins...
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Speedy2, Quote:
Does the AI feed into the exhaust tract or is it directly into the combustion chamber?
I believe the picture below will assist you in determining the answer for which you have inquired. Take note of the yellow arrow that points toward the AI plug.
Hope that helps,
-BT
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Re:Stokers, rods and crank-pins...
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Old Hand
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Quote:
Having had the benefit of being able to think about this without a hangover (!) it's boot out of gob time! I would, therefore, like to apologise...shortening the rod will indeed increase the cylinder capacity but the CR (compression ratio) will also fall so the power increase (if any) might not be what you would expect...increasing the swept volume is really the way to go but of course you then have to use spacers etc. to ensure the piston at TDC clears the head and to maintain the correct CR.
Regards
Jan
Umm, yes and no. Shortened rods will increase the swept volume, which is the volume disolaaced by tthe movement of the piston plus the extra volume above the piston at TDC. In otherwords, it increases the compression area by extending the combustion chamber down into the cylinder. A 780CC engine would still displace 780CC, but the compression ratio would be reduced. An undersirable side effect of shorter rods is a les favourable stroke:rodlength ratio. The longer the rod is relative to the length of the stroke, the less engine torque will be diverted to trying to push the piston sideways through the cylinder wall.
If one were to find it possible to increase the stroke of his bike engine, it is better to try to find pistons with the wristpin (gudgeon) holes higher or to get a stroker plate made and fit it between the crankcase and cylinders.
Let's hope there's intelligent life somewhere in space 'cause it's buggar all down here. -- Monte Python
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Re: Weisco Big-Bore Cometh
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Pat, Well, I removed the motor from the frame today. I then put it upside-down on my workbench and, viola, out dropped the "dowel locater." Below is a picture of my Speedy's bottom end. I took Speedy23 advice and put toilet-paper roll cardboard over the rods.  Just a note about this adventure so far. If I was going to do it over again (knowing what I know now) I would have removed the whole motor from the frame first. After that, I would have conducted all of the "performance modifications" on the more controlled setting of my workbench. That way the process would've been split into two distinct phases, which would have afforded the ability to focus on each phase better, - IMHO. BTW, I still got that damned magnet in there. Also, I still am curious about that "Stoker Kit." -BT
"Speedmaster" is a title not a name, - and the title is not plural.
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Re: Weisco Big-Bore Cometh
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Loquacious
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OMG! What are you doing to that poor engine?  Reminds me of some slasher movie. Something like The Evil Dead which I watch every Halloween. No idea where the magnet went? Best of luck to you getting it out. Stroker kits aren't available and I'd hate to think what it would cost to have one custom built. You might want to put in a Barnett clutch, or at least beefier springs, if you haven't already decided to do that.
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SalMaglie,
Well, I'm glad I'm doin it if for nothing else but to clean that filthy thing up.
BTW, if there is no such thing as a stroker kit for the Triumph-Twin, - I wonder why Dinqua's friend Jojje changed out his stock connecting-rods for the aftermarket Carrillo connecting rods? The picture below (taken from Jojje website) shows the Carrillo connecting rods with the Weisco piston compared to the stock combination (Stock setup on the bottom).
Since I'm opening up the bottom end, I wonder if getting these would be worthwhile?
Input?
BTW, you can view the Turbo Swede's Bonnie here.
-BT
"Speedmaster" is a title not a name, - and the title is not plural.
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Re: Weisco Big-Bore Cometh
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Loquacious
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Those are the same length as the stock rods. IIRC, Jojje put those in because they're forged instead of cast and he needed them for his race bike.
edited to add: Check out this thread on Jojje's forum.
Last edited by SalMaglie; 11/06/2005 2:32 AM.
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Re: Weisco Big-Bore Cometh
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Worn Saddle
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bt,
Really glad for you that you got the varmir part out. Now that magnet, well, that's another story and it is for sure stuck very securely on the metal parts.. By the way, is the locator dowel magnetic anyway? Not sure, but for future reference it's good to know.
As far as working on the bench, definetly way easier, but more of a PITA for sure.
Could you do me a flavor and post a nice picture of the bottom of the motor with the oil pan removed, I am curious to see what's under there and what is accessable. Especially the con rods.
And as stated above, the cast rods Jojje uses are because he drag races his bonnie and they need the serious rods, not really necessary unless you plan on serious beating up of the machine.
Good luck, keep me posted. I hate to say it, but you already know, you lerarn far more by mistakes then if it went smoothly. I know I did. If you can forward me the pix when you're all done I will add them and the clutch stuff this winter to my site. The more the bettererer.
Cheers, have a cold one on me!
A word to the wise is not necessary. It is the stupid ones who need the advice.
Pat
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Re: Weisco Big-Bore Cometh
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Pat, Yeah, my mistakes teach me alot also. But, I wouldn't change a thing. When this is all done I'll know a lot about this rig. Anyway, below are a few more pictures for your illumination.  This is the bare bottom-end ready for delivery (the aforementioned "wimp-clause").  Here is a shot looking up underneth at the bottom-end with the oil-sump plate off. This shows the access to the right-side con-rod bolts.  This shot shows access to the left-side con-rod bolts (again, from underneth). Stay tuned, -BT
"Speedmaster" is a title not a name, - and the title is not plural.
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Re: Weisco Big-Bore Cometh
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Big Bore
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Excellent pics BT. Definitely following this thread!!
Out of curiousity, how much does that whole bottom end weigh now without the jugs and head?
"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" - Robert Heinlein
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Re: Weisco Big-Bore Cometh
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bonnyusa,
With the way the bottom-end is stripped down now (everything off of it), it weighs 98 lbs.
I'll keep you posted on the magnet retrieval.
-BT
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Re: Weisco Big-Bore Cometh
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Ah, Mr. Thug where did you get 2 empty sh!t paper rolls?
I can see havin one in the garbage can but two??
You must live with women, the kind that not only can't put the new roll on but will leave the replacement roll sitting on top of the empty. Right???
ModelMaker
Your not the boss of me!!
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Re: Weisco Big-Bore Cometh
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ModelMaker,
"Sh!t paper rolls"!? LOL!
Nope, I cut the inner cardboard from a paper-towel roll in half.
Anyway, - on to...
THE WEDNESDAY REPORT
The new re-sleeved 904 cc jugs are back from the piston machinist (see pic below). However, my bottom-end is in getting the friggin magnet out of it. Thankfully, the fellow opening it up used to work for I-90 Motorsports (a Triumph dealer) and has opened Triumph bottom-ends before.
Attn: Pat
I delivered my manifolds to AMI Racing engines to have them polished & matched with the intake ports (as you suggested).
I've also ordered new aftermarket cams, - so things are popping right along.
I hope all this is worth it?!!
Stay tuned,
-BT
"Speedmaster" is a title not a name, - and the title is not plural.
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Re: Weisco Big-Bore Cometh
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Loquacious
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where did you get your cams from? and if its cool to ask how much they set you back
Frank
(Former)05 BA tbike pipes, ai removed, Freak, mikuni hsr 42's, 904, ported/polished head, 1mm oversized valves
NOW-2010 silver and black tbird
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Re: Weisco Big-Bore Cometh
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Worn Saddle
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Yea, what Frank said, cams?? More info please. I'm still waiting for my cams from Thunderbike to test for you guys. Oh Graeme! 
A word to the wise is not necessary. It is the stupid ones who need the advice.
Pat
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Pat & Frank, About the cams, - here's how it happened. I was up at AMI Racing Engines discussing getting the friggin magnet out of my bottom-end. As I discussed this rebuild with Barry (the guy behind the counter), I mentioned that I wanted to install aftermarket cams. He asked where I was going to buy them, to which I answered southbaytriumph.com. He (Barry) said, "well, before you order them, let me check into that for you." What he then did was go to the South Bay website and checked out what I was talking about. Then, I think what happened is this, - I think he figured out that South Bay & AMI Racing Engines share the same source for aftermarket cams (for the Triumph Bonneville). He (Barry) called me back and said he could get me the same ding-danged cams as on the South Bay site for less money. So I said, "let's do it." That's all I know at this point about that. Also, about the Keihin FCR 39mm carbs at South Bay (which are a bit pricey). Well, AMI Racing Engines are the local Sudco Dealer in my area (Sudco is the official US distributor for Keihin carbs), and he said he could possibly get those FCR 39mm flatsides for considerably less. He was going to call his Sudco rep about specifically adapting those FCR's to my stock throttle cables. I'll keep you posted. -BT
"Speedmaster" is a title not a name, - and the title is not plural.
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Re: Weisco Big-Bore Cometh
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Worn Saddle
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Good info on the cams and carbs.
I did a lot of research before on teh FCR39s too. I talked to the guys at Sudco and the setup they sell to SB is nothing out of the ordinary. SB makes up their own crossbracket to connect the two. But like you said, you can buy a set of 3 FCR39s for the Triumph Triples and adapt them and have a spare for less than 1/2 what SB sells them for. But these carbs are very touchy I have read. Never used them so I am only quoting what I have read. They are extremely sensitive to full on whacking and will flood and drown the motor at stops quite easily. They require a slow roll on to get going, then you can give them more of a wahck. The acceleratror pumps are the reason behind this. On my Mikunis (when I had them on) would act similar and you had to totally disable the acc pumps or all I got was the machine gun from flooding and black wet plugs. I thought the FCR39s would be almost perfect for the 904 kits though, with some careful happy hand activity though.
I was considering getting a set (the triple set) this winter and workling on making up a bracket, or having someone that knows how make me a bracket.
Kepp up the good work BT, inquiring minds want to know.
And, how much were the cams after all? My local guy says he can give mine a medium street grind for about $140 for the pair.
A word to the wise is not necessary. It is the stupid ones who need the advice.
Pat
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Pat, I've lightly followed the discussion about the Keihin FCR Flatsides. I've also wondered about if a marriage with the Weisco Kit & the FCR's would be good. Then it dawned on me, "I wonder what that fancy new Norton Commando 952 uses for carbs?" So, I went to their website and, lo & behold, there it was, - the new Norton 952 Commando uses the Keihin FCR flatsides (see picture below).  So, that confirms it (to me at least). If those carbs work well with a 952 parallel twin (the Norton), then logic tells me they would also work well with a 904cc parallel twin (the Weisco/Triumph kit). It would be great to hear some input from the Norton Motorcycle Co. Technicians. Maybe someone should call (at 503-650-5390) pretending to be interested in buying a Norton so as to get information about their carb setup.  -BT
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i would really like to see how much of a real world difference these carbs add. dyno numbers are great but it will be intersting to see how they differ in real world street siuations. to bad dynos werent cheap and easy to get to, i would love to see what each of those mods does individually (cams, carbs, porting) that is going to feel like a totally different bike when you have it all back together
Frank
(Former)05 BA tbike pipes, ai removed, Freak, mikuni hsr 42's, 904, ported/polished head, 1mm oversized valves
NOW-2010 silver and black tbird
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THURSDAY (the 10th):
Well, the mechanic at AMI Racing Engines spent half a day looking at the inside of my bottom-end, and the bottom-line is that there is no magnet in there. He looked everywhere for hours (even in the shifting drum) and nothing. They went easy on the bill too (the infamous "wimp clause"), and only dinged me $207.
Who knows, I'll probably find the magnet on the side of one of my wrenches someday.
But, many of you will find his comments about the Bonneville bottom-end interesting. He said, "you shouldn't be intimidated by this bottom-end. It is a very simple & solid bottom-end." He went on to say how impressed he was with the "top-notch workmanship."
Anyway, I begin building my motorcycle back up starting this weekend.
Stay tuned,
-BT
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Re: Weisco Big-Bore Cometh
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Learned Hand
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BT, I’m worried for you. If you know you lost the tip of the magnet tool in the motor it’s gotta be in there somewhere. How often have you dropped a nut or a bolt on the floor and never found it, or found it days later in a real obvious place. I know I have. That magnet is hiding in the motor disguising itself as part of it. Before you re-assemble your motor you gotta find that magnet!
if life gives you lemons keep them because hey,free lemons.
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kennymc,
That's just it, - I don't know for sure that the magnet came off in the motor. It was late, I was probing around with my telescopic magnet tool when I realized "my magnet tool isn't magnetizing." Then I looked and the magnet was gone off the end. I was probing around for about an hour & a half. So, I know the magnet came off, but I don't know where. AMI Racing Engines split the case & looked in there for hours (even in the shifting drum) and they're positive it's not in there. So, at this point it's a mystery. It could be stuck to the steel frame, on the side of a wrench, on my child's Huffy bike, I don't know. But it's not inside my case, and I paid $207 to find that out.
-BT
"Speedmaster" is a title not a name, - and the title is not plural.
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Check Pants
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Mark, Makes me nuts when that stuff happens. Just got back from the grocery store, truck fired and died. Completely dead, no radio, nothing. Eventually got it started with a jump from a kid I know. But it wouldn't maintain an idle. Turns out a battery lead was almost off  I was already checking fusees. Back to your magnet, I was tempted to look at MY bike in case it became mysteriously affixed last summer in Idaho. But that would be an extremely looong shot. Good luck, I look forward to your impressions after getting the bore kit up and running. John
"It's not what I say that's important, it's what you hear" Red Auerbach
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John, But, rest assured, that magnet is not in the crankcase. People get spooked about the innermost innards of our Bonnies, but the mystique is not warranted. The picture below shows what AMI Racing engines looked at for a few hours.  If there was a magnet in there, they would have found it. Anyway, I started building it back up this evening. Installed the starter, replaced all the gears in the clutch cavity, reinstalled the Barnett clutch (I'm getting good at that one), and installed the oil sump & cover. I'm beginning to get stoked (and broke  ). -BT
"Speedmaster" is a title not a name, - and the title is not plural.
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Worn Saddle
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I would agree with kenny. I would not be happy until I found the magnet, no matter where it was. I would scour the garage floor totally, clean everything up until the floor was completly bare and if not found, go back inside the motor and look again. If nothing else, to cover your own butt, since the shop charged you $200+ to look for the magnet and remove it, I would ask for something in writing that says it's not in there. That way, if it does surface inside later they would need to step up and help with the repair it would need.
Or, the magnet may just end up getting chewed up anyway from all those beefy steel gears.
Either way, I would not be able to sleep and worry everytime I stared the bike until I had that sucker in my hand.
A word to the wise is not necessary. It is the stupid ones who need the advice.
Pat
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 694 |
Pat, Sheesh! Now I got my wife and you telling me to "scour my garage floor." Okay, okay, - I'll do it. -BT PS - This really is like a "manly-man soap opera."
"Speedmaster" is a title not a name, - and the title is not plural.
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Re: Weisco Big-Bore Cometh
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 694
Adjunct
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OP
Adjunct
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 694 |
Pat,
I forgot to ask. If you put your original 16-tooth primary sprocket back on, would your rig wheelie (that is, with the Weisco kit and every thing else you've done)?
Just Curious,
-BT
"Speedmaster" is a title not a name, - and the title is not plural.
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Re: Weisco Big-Bore Cometh
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,308 Likes: 4
Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,308 Likes: 4 |
I have had the belt drive since right after the big bore (less than 200 miles), but with the 18t it would pull the front up if I wanted it too. Especially when going from first to second. With the 16t I would pretty much guarantee it would and if you got the weight postioned correctly I might even ponder to guess you could flip it over. There really is a big difference in the torque as you will soon see.
A word to the wise is not necessary. It is the stupid ones who need the advice.
Pat
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Re: Weisco Big-Bore Cometh
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,308 Likes: 4
Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,308 Likes: 4 |
BT, When they pulled the bottom did they also remove all the gears to look underneath them? It appears they would realign easy enough. (Excellent pix of the bottom by the way) And I hope they changed the countershaft seal too since it has been opened and exposed. Staying tuned for the next installment of the manly soap, "As the crank turns."
A word to the wise is not necessary. It is the stupid ones who need the advice.
Pat
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