Bonneville America Forums Forums Off Topic Discussion Forums Lounge Gas/Fuel prices US vs other

no comment. anything political, environmental or otherwise somewhat controversial on this forum.....in my opinion its useless to comment. Whether your comments are on the left....right .....in the middle.....someone will start calling you an idiot. So while i have my opinions i am keeping it to myself. But it sure is fun to read all the ill-imformed comments

Simply put, we hurt ourselves by not taking advantage of our own resources. We have the ability to make energy much cheaper, and in doing so, enhancing our standard of living, across the board for all.

But when everyone else's supplies run out, you will have the rest of the world by the balls... unless your bought out by Japan ofc

So saving your oil maybe isn't such a bad idea, long term.

No pain, no gain

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we hurt ourselves

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Check out this chart again:




The supply isn't an issue. It's the demand.
Regardless of where the oil comes from, the sellers will make the maximum profit that the market (you and I and everyone else) will pay.

As per another post, directly from the Sec. General of OPEC, "Oil Prices have NOTHING to do with Supply and Demand". A lot of the blame has to fall on investors and speculators. The other day, oil prices went up by $1 a barrel, because a Japanese tanker was shot at. Did the supply actually get disrupted, no. They lost a couple hundred gallons of fuel, but otherwise made their delivery.

OPEC has been asked to increase supply to relieve price pressure, but has declined. That points to greed in my opinion.

Another reason given for high prices is a combination of lack of refining capacity combined with a massive demand in a growing China. Well, since NIMBY is so bad here (I readily agree that this is true), do like most other industries, build capacity locally, in China. They certainly have no regard for their environment. Actually, I would be surprised if they don't already have their own capacity, so that argument doesn't seem to hold much water either.

It seems that every time the price does go up, or down, it's because of some event, like news that fuel stocks are lower than expected, or an attack on a tanker, which again points back to commodoties traders. Which comes back to greed, drive up prices until people WON'T pay any more to maximize profits, which is fine if you're making Nintendos, but not so fine if your screwing with peoples livelihood (as is the case with food prices now in several third world countries)

Well, maybe, as a group (consumers), we will finally have been kicked in the teeth enough by OPEC and the whole industry to really get serious about fuel economy and alternative fuels (serious ones, not ethanol).

Now, I'm putting some nuclear fuel rods in my bike and a boiler this weekend, any volunteers to help me...

Perhaps, Greg, there is more to it than either supply and demand and investors (as per your post) and it is more to do with political/mind control of the US population. I'm not one for conspiracies but the following link to Alex Jones about Alaskan oil makes very interesting reading:

http://www.infowars.com/gunther.html

I dont know if I buy the explanations of a cartel, it is merely propaganda in a major degree. That isnt to say that specualtion has also greatly tainted the pricing, OPEC can produce at much higher volume than it does, and the prices will be effected.

The worldwide demand will continue to grow, India will surpass China economically within 20 years, we are seeing their growth add to the oil demand right now. As a free people, they have much more potential to expand.

As for supply, the massive reserves discovered in Brazil will only have price effect downward if demand diminishes ( not likely ), but add in new reserves brought online, and it can greatly help, collectively ( as I stated earlier, we have substantial reserves we are not going after. Former Senator John Breaux D-LA has stated this quite clearly in various public formats ) making a possible impact on either bringing prices down, or stabilizing them. Of course, there may be immense reserves still not found, or like it has been theorized, oil may be a by product of inner workings of the planet, and not fossil by products ( it would be interesting if this one is ever proven true ). Add in the comment mentioned in another's post about refining capacity, and it also make a major impact on supply. We need to build more (why dont we?) to lessen our dependence on others, and to reduce costs. Then, we need to build more electric capacity( especially nuclear ), as it would allow the use of plus in vehicles to a larger degree( they would be best utilized in urban/low mileage uses ). At present, to plug in millions of cars would just crap out the power grid (can you imagine the black out potential during A/C season? ).

You know Todd, those are all excellent suggestions alright, however I have to ask you two questions:

Where is the capital needed to accomplish these goals going to come from if the oil companies continue to live by their business plan of the "old status quo school of proactive-ism", not to mention that our government is already presently trillions of dollars in debt, and so The Feds can't afford to step in and provide these needed modernizations of our infrastructure either, can they?

...and...

Where is the "groundswell of support" from the public for these changes, which is always needed to make it known to the powers-that-be that this issue should be placed up higher on our list of priorities, as I certainly don't see this issue holding any "gravitis" by a mostly apathetic american public preoccupied with the day-to-day?!

(BTW...the second question here is why you'll often find me making light of the weighter issues around here, as I feel most people really don't "want to get involved" with these sorts of issues anymore unfortunately, so what's the use in discussing them in earnest...and also why I briefly noted in an earlier posting in this thread that I mostly agreed with JB's somewhat pessimistic view about our country's near-future energy prospects)

Well, with regard to refining capacity, the Oil Industry should hold to the same standards as any other business. When times are really good for them, take that money and invest it in additional refining capacity or whatever capacity they need, if need be offshore to avoid the NIMBY thing. I'm sure there are lots and lots of countries out there that DO want the investment in their country, the jobs, and the tax revenues.

As to the 2nd question, I suspect when people finally and really do have to choose between eating and driving on a large scale, then you'll see more of a groundswell. As long as it's only really hurting lower middle-class and lower class people, I suspect the groundswell will be nothing more than the grousing we have currently (personally, I would have thought a 200% plus increase in the cost of gas tacked onto the skyrocketing prices of day to day staple items like milk, eggs, etc... would've pushed that groundswell along a little faster, but I guess we humans are a thick-headed lot.

As for the refineries, the laws/regulations need to be changed in order to allow them to build new ones here.

In regards to the capital to get the oil out of the ground/sea, well, the massive profits of the oil companies would flow to where they can make more ( it would go to the refineries too ). They are having issues with control of their investments in Venezuela, Russia, and a few other places, this would remove those risks and offer better long term profit potential.

As for the power grid, the ability and profit is there to be made, once again, the laws/regs need to be adjusted and the investment will come, they will see the needs, the opportunity for profit, and they will build. Nuclear is the way to go, why not be like France and be generating 75% of our electricity from it?

well the French motto is "we surrender" isn't it?

Liberte, eqalite, fraternite