 igniter questions
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Ok, here is the deal....on my way to work last Friday. I had some rough running, getting worse all the time. On the way home, one whole cyl drops out. ( I ride a 3 cyl). I did a bit of poking around, and found my #1 plug wire had burnt at the plug. So, I get a set of new ones, replace only #1 wire, go back to work on Tuesday. Well, on the way home, number 2 goes. So, replace that one too. And you guessed it, number 3 toast. Replace that one, and find that I am getting no fire on number 3. So, I swap around coils, and it turns out that it is only the number 3 position that is not firing. I checked the wires, and they are fine. Making the little meter beep like heck. Could this be a igniter failure? Would a igniter going bad cause things to burn up like that? Any help would be great. I'm scratching my head here.
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Re: igniter questions
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Sounds like an igniter (eeks) and I'd say it's more likely the other things took out the igniter moreso than the other way around.
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Re: igniter questions
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The other things? Like what for instance???
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Re: igniter questions
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Re: igniter questions
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Ok, riddle me this. Could it be something that caused the igniter to put too much spark to the plugs to burn them? Like the pick up coil?
Last edited by Legendryder1; 04/04/2008 7:16 PM.
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Re: igniter questions
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Also, is there anyway to test the igniter out of the bike. I am a bit leary of riding it right now. I don't want to do any more damage.
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Re: igniter questions
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Voltage surge from the bad wires may have taken out the igniter. If it's not running on all 3.. don't ride it! could do some damage to the engine.
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Re: igniter questions
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My main question is what made the plug wires fail like they did. It seems very suspect to me.
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Re: igniter questions
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Loquacious
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Quote:
Ok, riddle me this. Could it be something that caused the igniter to put too much spark to the plugs to burn them? Like the pick up coil?
The pick up coil is simply a hall effects switch ( off/on off/on) that sends a pulse to the igniter.. or more accurately, 3 pulses to the igniter when each cylinder reaches top dead center, the igniter in turn provides a ground to the coil allowing it to discharge voltage to the wires/plugs.
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Re: igniter questions
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I'm really not wanting to spend 700 bucks for a new igniter to just have the thing blow up again.
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Re: igniter questions
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Loquacious
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we should do this every weekend!
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Re: igniter questions
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THAT'S WHAT THE BOOK SAID!!!!!!!
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Re: igniter questions
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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The pick up coil can't cause the failure so look to the grounds on the coils.... Make sure the mating surface to the frame is clean of paint and rust. Our bikes have metal clips that the coil retaining screws go into so make sure they are well grounded to the frame. Throw on a bit of dielectric grease and clean the threads of the screws to secure the ground. I'm pretty much thinking that might be your problems root.
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Re: igniter questions
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So you are saying that a fault in the ground most likely caused the failure? Since it is earth to ground, it went looking for the weak spot and caused all kinds of damage?
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Re: igniter questions
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I just thought of something else. When I pulled the number three plug wire, there was a bunch of rust in the connector to the coil itself. Could that have been a cause?
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Re: igniter questions
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Loquacious
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Quote:
I just thought of something else. When I pulled the number three plug wire, there was a bunch of rust in the connector to the coil itself. Could that have been a cause?
It's possible. I always use dielectric grease on every connection.. especially the coil wires (lots o' voltage there). Grounds or the lack thereof can cause some strange electrical issues.
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Re: igniter questions
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So, is there a way to test the igniter out of the bike or not?
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Re: igniter questions
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Could it be the pickup sensor? I mean the one inside the crank cover. Maybe the circut is stuck open and it caused a very high resistance spike?
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Re: igniter questions
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Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
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if the pickup sensor is open you will get no spark whatsoever.
The bad plug wires are a strange one for sure, seems like overvoltage which is usually caused by bad grounding in most electric circuits.
A word to the wise is not necessary. It is the stupid ones who need the advice.
Pat
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Re: igniter questions
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I checked the grounds and they all seem good. Been over at the "other" site, and have seen several threads on this same problem. Some were fixed with the sensor, some had to buy a new igniter. I'm really thinking on going ahead and trying the sensor, at 70 bucks it might be worth a try. I am not looking forward to having to spend 700 just to have the thing blow up again.
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Re: igniter questions
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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If by igniter you mean the coil ,check it for resistance. If you get an open circuit then it's bad.This doesn't always show up when cold but usually will. Sometimes they test OK but fail once hot. On the bike if #1 isn't firing but #2 is unplug the wires from them and swap them and swap the plug wires if #1 then fires you eliminated that fault and need to look elsewhere.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: igniter questions
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I am WAAAYYY past that part of the trouble shooting. lol An update if you will.....I was digging around and what do I find????? I found that the factory sealed lead (red and black) to the ignition sensor was full of water. Hmmmmm you say. I then split the shrink and what did I find? I found a break in the black wire. Well now. Water+break in ground=blowing stuff up!!!! I just hope it didn't get all the way to the igniter. I am thinking replace sensor and pray.
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Re: igniter questions
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Quote:
So, I swap around coils, and it turns out that it is only the number 3 position that is not firing.
The best way to check a coil is with a meger which checks for leakage in coils (transformers, motors, coils, etc)
Point of clarification, when you swapped the coils I assume you took #1 or #2 which were good and placed them in the 3 position which didn't change things? Did you take the #3 coil and try it in the #1 position? If so, that basically eliminates coil problems and coil high voltage wires. Check the primary side of the coils next. I don't have a diagram for your model but the primary power and ground for each coil (for the twin cylinder models) comes from the ignitor. Unplug the ignitor, find the power and ground leads to each coil and test with an ohmeter. This circuit should be very low resistance, probably only a few ohms. This verifys the primary side of the ignition system. If you find an open circuit or high resistance there's your problem.
My guess is that high voltage leakage through one of the 3 coils fed back through the primary side and fried your ignitor when your coil wires burnt. When you run an engine with a bad HT wire, that voltage has to go somewhere. Only a guess mind you. Too bad you can't borrow an ignitor and check.
Does anyone know if the ignitor can be checked with any electronic device or is it strictly hit and miss?
12 Rocket Roadster
03 Bonneville America
69 BSA Firebird Scrambler
73 Yamaha TX 750
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Re: igniter questions
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Joined: Apr 2007
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Quote:
I found a break in the black wire. Well now. Water+break in ground=blowing stuff up!!!! I just hope it didn't get all the way to the igniter. I am thinking replace sensor and pray.
Good to hear. You could probably get by with just repairing the sensor lead. Now to determine if your ignitor is bad.... Good luck. 
12 Rocket Roadster
03 Bonneville America
69 BSA Firebird Scrambler
73 Yamaha TX 750
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Re: igniter questions
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Loquacious
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The crank sensor triggers the pulse for all three cylinders the same.. if it fires one, it will fire them all.
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Re: igniter questions
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The worst I can see about this whole thing is I will be replacing a fouled part which caused the whole thing, and then finding the rest. If it is the igniter, I have two used ones that I have a track on, one being a sure thing.
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Re: igniter questions
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
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Quote:
Quote:
So, I swap around coils, and it turns out that it is only the number 3 position that is not firing.
The best way to check a coil is with a meger which checks for leakage in coils (transformers, motors, coils, etc)
Point of clarification, when you swapped the coils I assume you took #1 or #2 which were good and placed them in the 3 position which didn't change things? Did you take the #3 coil and try it in the #1 position? If so, that basically eliminates coil problems and coil high voltage wires. Check the primary side of the coils next. I don't have a diagram for your model but the primary power and ground for each coil (for the twin cylinder models) comes from the ignitor. Unplug the ignitor, find the power and ground leads to each coil and test with an ohmeter. This circuit should be very low resistance, probably only a few ohms. This verifys the primary side of the ignition system. If you find an open circuit or high resistance there's your problem.
My guess is that high voltage leakage through one of the 3 coils fed back through the primary side and fried your ignitor when your coil wires burnt. When you run an engine with a bad HT wire, that voltage has to go somewhere. Only a guess mind you. Too bad you can't borrow an ignitor and check.
Does anyone know if the ignitor can be checked with any electronic device or is it strictly hit and miss?
This is exactly what I was saying except you said it better and made it a little more clear.
At any rate it sounds like you found your problem, I hope it didn't take out any other componants.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: igniter questions
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Well, I did replace the sensor, and no soap. But at least I am now getting spark on all three plugs. Very weak spark. I have an igniter on the way from NYC. Hoping it will be here by Sat. Will spend the day Friday going over all grounds and any possible stress points for crud, breaks, ect. Yipee.
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Re: igniter questions
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Well dang.. sorry to hear it didn't take care of your problem.
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Re: igniter questions
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Yeah, me too. But, it needed to be replaced anyhow, so no biggie I guess. Just waiting for igniter now, and will be working on checking for any other faults.
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Re: igniter questions
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Ok, so I have replaced the igniter, ignition sensor, found 2 wire breaks and now (drum roll please)......my bike is still not running. I am now getting a spark from the negative side of the number 1 coil to the ht lead on the number 2 coil. But hey, at least I'm getting spark now. rofl I'm thinking a short. Anyone have any ideas?
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Re: igniter questions
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Call me at work tomorrow between 2 and 3 if you can, and we'll try to sort it out.
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Re: igniter questions
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Re: igniter questions
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I wasn't able to call today. Can I call tomarrow?
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Re: igniter questions
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Re: igniter questions
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Well, what we talked about today didn't work. So now what?
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Re: igniter questions
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Loquacious
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we should do this every weekend!
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Re: igniter questions
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Ok, so that was funny the first 163 times. This bike is my only form of transpo, and it has been down going on 3 weeks. The time for jokes is long gone. I need some help here, not funny stuff.
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Re: igniter questions
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Loquacious
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Loquacious
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Sounds like time to pay you a visit..
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Re: igniter questions
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Well, unless you can get this thing going on very small cash, that ain't happening.
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