 Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,026
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,026 |
I have an aunt and uncle who moved to Nova Scotia to live next to my cousin, and they thought the extra benefit would be the health care. Well, they found it to a disaster, a test in patience, and they come to the USA to get care ( a long ferry ride and then a long drive ). They have mentioned that they think they put them off to see if they will die before they actually get the care they need.
Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and will never be.----Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,705 Likes: 23
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,705 Likes: 23 |
Quote:
I personally think some combination of both public and private health insurance options would be beneficial to a much larger portion of our FELLOW Americans, but after reading this thread I doubt there would or could ever be enough consensus reached in order to achieve something along these lines.
My conservative friends will shoot me for this but there is an African American making a lot of speeches lately that believes in affordable health care, not mandatory care. I could get behind that without too much kicking and screaming. I think I may actually get behind him later this year.
I don't think anybody believes the truly poor should be drug from the hospital by the hair and thrown under the bus. After all, who would wash the blood off the bus 
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,060 Likes: 6
Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,060 Likes: 6 |
Although I said I was done posting about this subject, I'm going to put out one more tidbit. In 1957, my grandmother had her last child in the hospital, the last of 8. She didn't want to, but her family kind of forced her to, for her own good and safety. She complained though the years that this hospital delivery cost her "a whole weeks salary", of my grandfather's, who had a good job on the RR in 57. Today that hospital delivery would be more like 6 months salary. Point is. The percentage of a persons salary for health care had risen past the ability for millions of hard working people to pay. SOMETHING needs to be done.
My final note. I quit watching this branch for a while because I was bothered by the hard-heartedness of a few of the writers. Some even went to the extremes of claiming they would rather die than suffer a Health Care System. And by implication, any other American can simply die if they can not afford health care. At least that is the way it sounds. I am sorrowed by this kind of cold, hardness, coming from this great community. I confess to a certain naivity about humans in general, as me and most of my family are all about helping the less fortunate, but hard working people in our own community. This is the greatest country in the world, and we can do better than we do for our fellow citizens. A hand up, not a hand out. God bless you all, anyway.
Fidelis et Fortis
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Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,018
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,018 |
Here we are. A bunch of like minded Triumph riders. And we can't agree on s###. And we expect politicians to sort this out for us. What a laugh. One way though to get it done would be to put a name on it like, The Patriot Act. Read that beauty. Seems we americans don't mind giving up our rights as long as its got a nice name. How about this. The National Patriot Health Org. That should make the freedom lovers feel a bit better.
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Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1
Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1 |
Quote:
To bring up being our brother's keeper as a justification for robbing us of our hard earned wages and our liberty is weak, mind numbingly so. If one even "gets" the Bible, the message that God offers is one of liberty, freedom of choice, not a forced obedience. If you believe in God, Jesus as His son, then you choose to obey, to please Him, and to be charitible is for Him. So, to help out others is a personal choice, not one to be done by others, nor by a substitute entity.
Well I didn't really bring up this point but since you did you might as well reread that book carefully. Then ask one of his authority figures (any priest would be a good choice) because it isn't a personal choice, it is a command.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
Quote:
Quote:
To bring up being our brother's keeper as a justification for robbing us of our hard earned wages and our liberty is weak, mind numbingly so. If one even "gets" the Bible, the message that God offers is one of liberty, freedom of choice, not a forced obedience. If you believe in God, Jesus as His son, then you choose to obey, to please Him, and to be charitible is for Him. So, to help out others is a personal choice, not one to be done by others, nor by a substitute entity.
Well I didn't really bring up this point but since you did you might as well reread that book carefully. Then ask one of his authority figures (any priest would be a good choice) because it isn't a personal choice, it is a command.
Well Ed, he did prove that some people don't "get" it 
BTW, you're spot on.
It's amazing that people who claim faith in God think they can also serve mammon (avarice)
Theological discussions get killed pretty quickly around here though, so let's drop that part.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,026
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,026 |
Where is it "command"? Offer the verse(s).
To try to offer up using a surrogate like government for national health care and then justify as being our brother's keeper is twisted, and completely misses the point. Faith is personal, not forced. To respond to God is choice, not forced. Charity is an act of faith in Christ, again not forced. To see one in need, if one has the means, one should help, its choice ( and then if one doesnt, then its very telltale of where one is at in one's faith. 1 John 3 is quite informative on this ) . This is all personal, at an interactive level. This belief that govt is going to be the surrogate and do for us what we dont is simply a surrender of our own responsibility to be the one's to do.
Offer up to me how it is better and foreordained that God wants us to defer our personal responsibility elsewhere.
Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and will never be.----Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,026
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,026 |
Gee Bill, where do you "get it"? It doesnt seem to obvious.
Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and will never be.----Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,026
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,026 |
Respectively, no Conservative would vote for the Senator from Illinois knowing his real record.
Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and will never be.----Thomas Jefferson
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Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,172
Saddle Sore
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Saddle Sore
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,172 |
Man, you guys surely go off the deep end...
Here it is in a nutshell.
Enough of our politicians at every level are corrupt.
Big business, including drug companies, insurance companies, Wall Street, some doctors, HMO organizations. etc. are rife with corruption.
The rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer, and those of us in the middle are being being fleeced and regulated to the point where there will be no middle.
Social Security and Medicare are being bled to death by fraud and government shenanigans. Healthcare is too.
It's out of control.
Do I have the answer? No.
Neither does Nationalized Health Care. It is socialism, pure and simple.
Religion doesn't enter into it.
Are there other socialist programs? Yes. They are wrong too.
You tend to lose your charitable instincts when you are being taxed and regulated into oblivion while the government spends your tax dollars on pork programs and vote-getting agendas that appeal to the lowest economic strata just for the sake of maintaining their power and careers. And the lowest economic strata keeps on pumping out dependants while seeking entitlements from the government.
Am I cold and cruel? Heartless? Maybe. But I believe in personal responsibility. There is no free ride. If you wish to create one, I don't want to fund it.....
More flags
More fun!
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Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,248 Likes: 64
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,248 Likes: 64 |
Quote:
It is all pretty simple... weather it be health care or retirement if the people in goverment had only access to the same options regular folks have, it would be fixed pronto... instead of getting votes by helping out the downtroddin they would be helping themselfs
I've been saying that about retirement and wages for years!
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,960
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,960 |
One more post about God or the Bible and this thread is gone. We are walking a fine line with the National Health Care subject and if that can't stay on track then it won't be tolerated.
John
Like a dog on a car ride with my tongue in the wind
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Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954 |
Quote:
Respectively, no Conservative would vote for the Senator from Illinois knowing his real record.
Hmmm, funny you should say that. A very dear friend of mine in Champaign whose entire family is VERY deeply Republican (her brother even named his daughter "Regan"), and whose father, were he alive, would disown her for such talk, is contemplating exactly that choice, and leaning toward that very senator that no "real conservative" would vote for. Funny thing is, even 3 or 4 years ago, had I said anything bad about our current president, and she would have taken me to task for it.
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Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954 |
Quote:
There is no free ride. If you wish to create one, I don't want to fund it.....
Don't think any of the proponents of NHS are talking about a free ride for anyone though. More like a safety net for those who need it. Of course there will be abuses, just as there are numerous abuses with the current system. No matter what kind of system you put in place, there are people looking to play the system, period! But, to have a hard-working family, who is contributing to society and playing by the rules and all that, go broke and lose their lifes dreams, because one of their family members gets hit with a horrible sickness that incapacitates him/her or takes his life and leaves that family with tens or hundreds of thousands in medical bills, is that the right answer? Is being helped in that situation a "free ride"? Is that family guilty of not being personally responsible, even if they had insurance and it wasn't enough. It happens every single day to cancer victims, parents of special needs kids, etc... If your son or daughter has some kind lymphoma, and you have to give up your job to keep taking him/her to a research hospital to do anything you can to save your child, and it drains you financially, and then you're told by the insurance company that this treatment or that isn't covered because it's "experimental" (happened to my step dad with heart meds, even though it saved his life)? How is that right?
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Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,705 Likes: 23
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 7,705 Likes: 23 |
Its not right in a moral sense but probably right contractually, but the government probably would not have paid for experimental either. You would see no difference. I don't live in Canada or England but I do think they have exclusions and parameters. If not, my cousin is a psychic healer that charges 800 per hour, I am going to him 3x per week. I think they may deny that one. If not! I want this plan! There are always questions. HIV cures can't be released now because the FDA won't approve them. After all we don't want side effects from that stuff. You will just have to die rather than maybe have a liver problem from the drug. A quick look at our FDA is a good snapshot of NHS. The area of "its a command" is totally out of context. No government was ever commanded to do anything in those years. As a matter of fact "Render onto Cesar what is Cesar's. Render onto" you remember. Individuals were commanded. If I am wrong then once implemented can I consider it my tithing for the year? As far as the guy from the windy city is concerned, I used to vote with the right all the time. Now I allow myself to have thoughts of my own. I am a slow learner but in 4 years even I figure stuff out. That is why the right spends all day, every day bashing that one. He scares them to death. One of theirs gets his jail term for obstruction of justice commuted while two border agents sit in jail for shooting a drug dealer. They must be so proud. And this crew or somebody like them would be in charge of a trillion buck program. Nooo, nobody would ever get rich on that little deal would they.
I try to aggravate one person a day. Today may be your day.
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Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,527
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Mar 2006
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And meanwhile the inexperienced kid from Illinois dallies with racists and attends the racists church for 20 years....
Uh huh Gol darn America, Gol Darn America. 9/11 was an inside job. Yes sir massa reverend Wright. LOL
"I was not there in the Pew" "I did not have sex with that woman" A strange yet familiar tone to those two phrases...both lies of course.
Mr. Illini Kid may yet prove to be Unelectable as more and more hard working fully employed and contributing to society at large men read through his empty rhetoric.
By the way I thought this forum was supposed to be politics and religion free.
LOL.....now thats a joke for the times. Or did this thread just gradually opine from health care to Election 08? Just sorta slid in there slowly under the radar did it not?
"Proud to be an Infidel" ... "100% pure American Jingoist"
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Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
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Loquacious
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well, seeing as we've beat the NHS debate to death, and it is starting to wander into Taboo-land, probably a good idea to lock it, before someone drops a nuke....
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Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
To bring up being our brother's keeper as a justification for robbing us of our hard earned wages and our liberty is weak, mind numbingly so. If one even "gets" the Bible, the message that God offers is one of liberty, freedom of choice, not a forced obedience. If you believe in God, Jesus as His son, then you choose to obey, to please Him, and to be charitible is for Him. So, to help out others is a personal choice, not one to be done by others, nor by a substitute entity.
Well I didn't really bring up this point but since you did you might as well reread that book carefully. Then ask one of his authority figures (any priest would be a good choice) because it isn't a personal choice, it is a command.
Well Ed, he did prove that some people don't "get" it
BTW, you're spot on.
It's amazing that people who claim faith in God think they can also serve mammon (avarice)
Theological discussions get killed pretty quickly around here though, so let's drop that part.
It’s been my experience that the same people who want to guilt me into using the coercive power government of government to forcibly make people pay for their socialist nanny state programs by claiming “That’s what Jesus would do,†are the same ones who immediately respond with “You can’t legislate morality†anytime the commands of the Bible would go against them. I refuse to have my religious sentiments played by secularists. Besides, I have yet to read the passage that says Christians are supposed to pick others pockets to fund their charity. Compulsorily charity is not charity at all.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,541
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,541 |
Quote:
well, seeing as we've beat the NHS debate to death, and it is starting to wander into Taboo-land, probably a good idea to lock it, before someone drops a nuke....
Your probably right on that. Although it has been interesting to sit on the fence and watch this one unfold.
Gotta say though boys and girls. I'm a little surprised and somewhat dissapointed at the "I'm alright Jack, screw the rest of you" atitude around here.
Surprised indeed. I think a group hug is on order, or maybe a group ride 
Arsenalfan. AKA Mark Able
Seller of fine automobiles.
Jaguar, Land Rover, Porsche of Chattanooga
423-424-4000
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Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7 |
Quote:
Quote:
I personally think some combination of both public and private health insurance options would be beneficial to a much larger portion of our FELLOW Americans, but after reading this thread I doubt there would or could ever be enough consensus reached in order to achieve something along these lines.
My conservative friends will shoot me for this but there is an African American making a lot of speeches lately that believes in affordable health care, not mandatory care. I could get behind that without too much kicking and screaming. I think I may actually get behind him later this year.
I don't think anybody believes the truly poor should be drug from the hospital by the hair and thrown under the bus. After all, who would wash the blood off the bus
If you like hard core left wing policies he's the one. As for "The Poor." How often have you seen someone denied healthcare? Lack of insurance coverage is not the same as denial of healthcare. Is it as good as that afforded the wealthy? No, and neither is their housing, diet, clothing, transportation or other goods or services. So what? Everyone gets what they can afford and choose to buy. But everyone gets a certain minimum.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Quote:
It’s been my experience that the same people who want to guilt me into using the coercive power government of government to forcibly make people pay for their socialist nanny state programs by claiming “That’s what Jesus would do,†are the same ones who immediately respond with “You can’t legislate morality†anytime the commands of the Bible would go against them. I refuse to have my religious sentiments played by secularists. Besides, I have yet to read the passage that says Christians are supposed to pick others pockets to fund their charity. Compulsorily charity is not charity at all.
Yep! You're right there, Larry. I have to admit that I, Dwight, was the individual who brought this emotion of "guilt" into this, and I'm truly sorry for lowering the tenor of this discussion. YES! I truely am!
I guess if I were going to go that route, and as I said I now admit I shouldn't have, I should have just followed your lead here and attempted to evoke a different emotion from others in order to persuade them over to my way of thinking by utilizing a constant barrage of FEARful warnings such as the extreme idea of the coming "socialist nanny state" and the like, if we don't follow your path here.
(but then again, that's just how us "secularists" are, ya know)
And BTW Thanassis...thank you once again for your well written and incisive thoughts, in this case about the Greek Healthcare System, in which you delivered to this discussion with a even-handedness, and without having to appeal to the emotions...well done sir)
Last edited by Dwight; 04/04/2008 12:18 PM.
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
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Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
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Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,527
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,527 |
Your right there Larry. I dont think health care is denied to often here in these US except of course to card carring US citizens (tongue in cheek here )
Here in Southern Arizona on a fairly regular basis its common for overloaded SUV filled with illegals being chased by La Migra crash and burn and the surviving occupants get Free health care and a free trip back to the colon of the North American Continent ...If they survive.
But thats another topic altogether.
"Proud to be an Infidel" ... "100% pure American Jingoist"
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Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 9,223
Big Bore
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Big Bore
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 9,223 |
Replying to all.
I go away for five minutes and you chuckleheads turn it into a political football. What the he11 is wrong with you guys? Why do you ALWAYS have to push the envelope on this board?
I don't give a rat's behind what your political beliefs are. KEEP THEM THE HE11 OUT OF THREADS!
OR ELSE...
"Never underestimate the power of human stupidity" - Robert Heinlein
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