 Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,960
Loquacious
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,960 |
You are welcome Greg. I don't want to give the impression that our system is perfect, it's not and if you want to call it socialist I would agree. I'm also fine with that label. I think that the many working together should give a certain level of quality of life to everyone. Should that bar be set high? No I don't believe so since I think it breeds laziness but a certain level of the basics so that people can try and better themselves is something I do believe in, it makes for a stronger whole. This of course is not the discussion and I'll stop here.
Back to our system of health care. It isn't perfect and isn't an all encompassing umbrella where everyone is singing and dancing in time to the music. I still have medical benefits through work. These cover the items that OHIP doesn't cover. OHIP provides a basic level of care that every individual can expect. For instance eye care isn't covered between the ages of 20 and 65, my private plan does that. OHIP does cover a portion of the cost of drugs and significant portion to say the least but there are still some drugs that will cost you up to $25 per prescription, yes I know you guys will pay significantly more for that. A good example of this is a friend recently went through treatment for breast cancer. She had health coverage through her husband who has the same plan as mine. She was given injections of cancer treatment drugs which cost $125 per shot. Our plan covered the cost. Another person who was getting the same treatment as her but who only had OHIP coverage wasn't getting the shots but was instead getting pills. They aren't as effective as the shots and cost considerably less but at least she was getting care and without the need to think about how she could pay for this and her relatives need not think of how they would pay for the bills even if the treatments didn't work.
What I do like is our government has in the last few years started focusing more on the cause of an illness. Smoking causes cancer, not all kinds but a large portion of it. Ontario has recently outlawed smoking in all public areas. Sure they did it to help us but one of the things not mentioned is how it will help our health care system. It takes a lot of money to treat a cancer patient. If less people are getting cancer from cigarettes then there is less of a burden on our taxes dollars to treat those people and more money for the whole of our society.
I like that we watch each other's backs to a certain extent.
John
Like a dog on a car ride with my tongue in the wind
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954 |
No, you're right. It isn't a right at all, although under our law, hospitals (and doctors by the Hypocratic Oath) are obligated to treat and heal, regardless of financial status (at least to the point of stabilizing or preventing death) Therefore, we can continue the system as is, where one way or another, we pay for those without insurance, or we find a way to get them into the system. If we go with option 1, i.e. status quo, our health care will continue to rise to the point that even people who can afford it now, won't be able to. Not my "opinion", simply an observation of the current trend in medicine. Drug and hospital costs are rising, and a good portion of that is due to treating poor and uninsured. Now, we can turn a blind eye to that group, after all, this is a society where one makes his own way. Succeed or fail, all of it falls on the individual, right? But then, if we take that tack, how does that make our country any better than a 3rd rate poverty stricken country in Africa? And how does that jibe with the notion that this country was founded on Christian values? NO, it's not a right, but I for one feel a social obligation toward those less fortunate than me, since I have not always been so fortunate. It's not a matter of right at all, it's a matter of morality, and economics.
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,726
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,726 |
I'll just leave it to say I want less government. Do what only they can do and leave to the private sector things that have to be run efficiently to work properly. Profit is not a bad word. Having the government take over more and more that should be private sector with no concern for profits and no controls over waste and inefficiency (that would bankrupt a private company) will result in MUCH higher taxes for the people who can pay them. Initially, the poor move up and have what they need and the rich are decimated with taxes. Gov't has to bail out more and more businesses and jobs as the private sector investment money is eaten up with taxes and lost incentives. Ultimately, we're all screwed living in a poorly run society. Moving this direction is Socialistic, period.
See you guys back in the motorcycle forum.
Bob
2005 America, 904cc - sold. 2014 Trophy SE.
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954 |
Quote:
Gov't has to bail out more and more businesses and jobs as the private sector investment money is eaten up with taxes and lost incentives.
You mean like they're doing now with all of the PRIVATE SECTOR investment and mortgage banks?
Guess socialism is already here for the bankers!
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,527
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,527 |
My biggest concern about a National Healthplan is that it will be poorly administered and wrought with BUREACRACY.
I currently pay for healthcare through my employer who of course picks up the lions share of the cost.
Michael Moore has tried to tell Americans via his bogus film that all HMO are out to screw us all in the nether region. He uses scare tactics to try and paint the entire non govt HMO/health insurance system as corrupt/greedy and not concerned with their clients health. This is of course a fabrication.
Imagine what a govt controlled/implemented health care system will wreak in this country considering the degree of built in bureacracy that ANY program administered by the govt suffers from? And it matters none which political party holds power. BUREACRACY exists. And its a monster.
There has always been a degree of bureacracy in our democracy but since the end of WW2 it has blossomed into a thing of outright disastrous implication.
A little of topic but ...think of it like this. During WW2 Boeing was able to manufacture 12,700 B-17 bombers in very short order. If the same task was asked of them today even if we were in WW3.....they would be lucky to manufacture 300 a year with the current levels of controls/bureacracy that is placed on govt contractors.
I shudder to think of how Uncle will administer a national health care system. I can see myself being taxed near to death and having to wait months for a checkup.
"Proud to be an Infidel" ... "100% pure American Jingoist"
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954 |
That's the problem here Kevin. We need to stay on topic here discussing the pros and cons of the idea, and not tossing around slogans, names. Tossing around Socialist and Communist, or using Michael Moore tactics just diverts everyone from an clear discussion. What are the good points, and the bad points. No one wants a system that is poorly run, bureaucratic, or overly expensive. Nor, does anyone want to be priced out of healthcare by higher and higher medical costs, lower and lower coverages, etc... And, with companies having to fight harder and harder to be competitive, one of the first targets besides headcount is benefits, and one of the fastest rising benefit costs is health insurance (now that most companies have no pension plans(by the way, how is the switch from pensions to 401k's working out for everyone? ) And you don't like bureaucracy, have you ever talked to a claims administrator at a major medical insurance company (if you haven't have a friendly chat with ANY nurse at your local doctors office who has to process claims)? There seems to be this misconception that there is no bureaucracy in the private sector. If that's true, I guess every company I have ever worked for has been the wrong one, because I have seen cases of bureaucratic incompetence and footdragging in the private sector that rival anything in the public sector.
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,527
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,527 |
Whose tossing around anything? Not me. I am simply using an analogous concept to support an argument. If you dont like my Michael Moore analogy that is YOUR problem.
I could care less as you can imagine. Lighten up and have a cup of coffee.
I have had no problems of an extreme nature with my health care claims over the years that could not be resolved in reasonably short order.
I shudder to think how Uncle will treat us.
Thats MY point.
"Proud to be an Infidel" ... "100% pure American Jingoist"
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,823
Learned Hand
|
|
Learned Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,823 |
National Health Insurance Plan...man what a joke..
1. when was the last time goverment.took any anything and made it better??????
2.what will this cost us???? alot more then you think because you will not only be paying for you but everyone else also!!!!
3.what will they pay for???some of you need to know that a national health has paid for things like sex change... do you really want to be paying for stuff like that?????
4.and so you know paying for this is not the real trouble here in the USA.... it's the work force in the health care..
they have no help ever hospital is very short on RN nurse.. doctors..all over the usa... i belive this should be taken care of before they can even think about a plan for National Health...
i know alot about this my wife is a RN nurse has been one for many years..and i have tell you people i thank god every day for people like her that can do that job..
because i know that could not do it...they deal with more crap in one day then most people do in a year...ask your self. is this a job you could do??? most of you could not so remeber before you ask for National Health Insurance.. you will lost the right to chose.. you will get wht they give you and that it's...
Ed
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7
Monkey Butt
|
|
Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7 |
Quote:
Quote:
But, one critical point: Socialism is not Communism. The two terms are not interchangeable as some of the less erudite seem to think. Communism is indeed Socialism taken to an extreme, but Communism has come to mean a totalitarian dictatorship in modern terms.
Actually, by definition, the only difference between socialism and communism is that with communism, the governmnet owns and controls all your property (which the Oregon government is attempting to do right now).
Soren
As the state takes over more and more of the responsibilities previously held by private citizens and associations it will become more and more totalitarian. As it metastasizes throughout the culture it will demand control of more and more of the choices previously left to individuals. If it is not stopped the best we can hope for is a soft warm cuddly totalitarianism rather than a cold and cruel one. The famous leftist H.G. Wells called it “Liberal Fascism†back in the early 1930’s and promoted it as a benevolent dictatorship. Aldous Huxley described it’s ultimate expression in his 1932 book “Brave New World.†For a good explanation of the roots, methods and goals of the “Progressive†movement look here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_Fascism
The only part of your lives the welfare statists don’t want to control is what you do with your sex organs. But even there, they want to underwrite the costs of poor choices.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1
Worn Saddle
|
|
Worn Saddle
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1 |
Quote:
Imagine what a govt controlled/implemented health care system will wreak in this country considering the degree of built in bureacracy that ANY program administered by the govt suffers from?
Yeah, we wouldn't ever want to approach anything like the longevity and lower infant mortality rates that other western nations exhibit while under governmentally supervised "socialist" health care. Being 42nd overall health and longevity in the world while spending at the #1 position is dumb. Unfortunately a litany of what you don't want doesn't really forward the discussion of how the system is improved. How about a discussion of what you do want instead?
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,248 Likes: 64
Fe Butt
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,248 Likes: 64 |
Glad a Canadian chimed in too. It's good to get some insight from someone who lives it. All I know about Canadian health care is what I hear and that isn't good. I thought it was a national system in total. We often look to Canada for an example of national health care. I had no idea that the UK had a system in place like that. I had a bunch more to say about being able to afford a tax hike, and being poor, and being penalized for not being able to pay. We here have financial difficulties due to medical issues and other personal matters. Has nothing to do with being weak,or not having a good job, or being lazy. I could go on and on and list all the contributing factors but I won't.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,248 Likes: 64
Fe Butt
|
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,248 Likes: 64 |
Quote:
Whose tossing around anything? Not me. I am simply using an analogous concept to support an argument. If you dont like my Michael Moore analogy that is YOUR problem.
I could care less as you can imagine. Lighten up and have a cup of coffee.
I have had no problems of an extreme nature with my health care claims over the years that could not be resolved in reasonably short order.
I shudder to think how Uncle will treat us.
Thats MY point.
That is my biggest concern too that and being taxed into the poor house to pay for it all.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7
Monkey Butt
|
|
Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7 |
You have made my point. As soon as the government takes over the responsibility for healthcare they will also claim the right to mandate behavior. No smoking, require seat belts, helmets (or ban motorcycles), ban certain foods, require people to lose weight or lose benefits, mandate that companies make their employees exercise. Once you turn your obligations over to another you lose your liberties. If you turn them over to the government it’s done by statute. If you want the state to be your mama, expect to be treated like a child.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,527
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,527 |
Quote:
Quote:
Imagine what a govt controlled/implemented health care system will wreak in this country considering the degree of built in bureacracy that ANY program administered by the govt suffers from?
Yeah, we wouldn't ever want to approach anything like the longevity and lower infant mortality rates that other western nations exhibit while under governmentally supervised "socialist" health care. Being 42nd overall health and longevity in the world while spending at the #1 position is dumb. Unfortunately a litany of what you don't want doesn't really forward the discussion of how the system is improved. How about a discussion of what you do want instead?
LOL. What I want is heath care that is at least as cost effective for me as it is now without sacrificing service which I currently find to be AOK. I had thought I made that clear...English being my first language. 
Arguments to the levity of any degree of or lack of socialism in health care have not yet entered my argument. You only choose to see what is not there.
"Proud to be an Infidel" ... "100% pure American Jingoist"
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,611 Likes: 1
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,611 Likes: 1 |
Quote:
As soon as the government takes over the responsibility for healthcare they will also claim the right to mandate behavior. No smoking, require seat belts, helmets (or ban motorcycles), ban certain foods, require people to lose weight or lose benefits, mandate that companies make their employees exercise. Once you turn your obligations over to another you lose your liberties. If you turn them over to the government it’s done by statute. If you want the state to be your mama, expect to be treated like a child.
Switching to national healthcare has little to do with most of the examples you provided. Most of those examples are already being regulated by one govt agengy or another.
Stewart
.......
"It's outside your field of expertise."
"Poppycock normally is."
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,527
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,527 |
As for infant mortality rates in this country? They are largely skewed due to the fact that many third world countries do not go out of their way to try and save underweight or otherwise impacted births simply allowing them to die and reporting them as stillborn. whereas in the US we go the extra mile to try and save them and as a result the numbers in terms of infant mortality look much worse due to the reporting methodology.
"Proud to be an Infidel" ... "100% pure American Jingoist"
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954 |
Well, I didn't accuse YOU of tossing anything around, was just making a point (which I stand by). Michael Moore is as big of an idiot as the rest of the demagogues like Limbaugh, Coulter, etc... I didn't listen to any of them when I formed my opinions about this subject, nor do most people on this board I suspect.
Don't feel like lightening up, thanks, I like being high-strung.
Last edited by Bayern710; 04/03/2008 11:32 AM.
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1
Worn Saddle
|
|
Worn Saddle
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1 |
Quote:
As for infant mortality rates in this country? They are largely skewed due to the fact that many third world countries do not go out of their way to try and save underweight or otherwise impacted births simply allowing them to die and reporting them as stillborn. whereas in the US we go the extra mile to try and save them and as a result the numbers in terms of infant mortality look much worse due to the reporting methodology.
Actually I was referring to westernized industrial nations only, not any of the third world which does implement the methods you describe. And, mea culpa, I did take liberties with your quote since you never actually brought socialism into the discussion.
I guess my biggest question at this point is how does system of national health care prevent you from seeking the level of care that you can afford if you can in fact afford to pay more for better doctors or better insurance? Do the Canadian or British systems prevent you from seeking superior care if it's available and you have the means? I don't know that's why I ask.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954 |
Quote:
That is my biggest concern too that and being taxed into the poor house to pay for it all.
Ian, what's the difference, you're paying for it right now, through an insurance premium, same as you would under NHS. Currently, if I compare my monthly deductions for Medicare (which is paying for the group of people we are talking about covering here under NHS), it's far less than what I pay for Insurance. Even my Soc Sec deduction is no more than my med insurance, and that's going toward a long term payout (if I ever see any of it that is). I would be curious to hear from someone who is under NHS what their total out of pocket is on a monthly basis as a percentage of their take home pay and really compare apples to apples here with what ours is. Mine right now is about 5% each month of my gross salary, and again, i have to still pay out of pocket for every office visit, and up to $3000 (for the family) for deductibles per year.
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,248 Likes: 64
Fe Butt
|
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,248 Likes: 64 |
We have to pay out of pocket too for every visit and Wendy has to go a lot for her different issues. I would actually like to hear some more about the out of pocket expense of people under NHS myself.
My cost concern would be as stated above that once it's paid for by the gov't people would start using it frivolously driving costs up and thus driving my taxes up. The figure was thrown out there and I am not sure how accurate it is but the 25% that doesn't have health care ins. has a cost equaling 250% of the 75% that do have ins. and I find that scary. I also wouldn't want the gov't telling Wendy that she doesn't need certain care that she does indeed need. I think the better solution would be to drive the cost down for the doctors and hospitals in any way possible to make care more affordable. Frivolous lawsuits should be discouraged and any suit being found to be frivolous should then be billed to the person bringing suit. Thats not saying just because you lose a law suit it is frivolous but those who sue just to try and make a buck. I know it would be hard to draw up guidelines as to what constitutes a suit without merit but it's wrong to see doctors being sued for trying to save a life. There are cases that are malpractice and then a suit would be in order but to have to pay for ins. because of the gold diggers is wrong and drives up our health cost. I know there are many other factors but that is a large cost.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 11,126 Likes: 13
Should be Riding
|
|
Should be Riding
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 11,126 Likes: 13 |
succinctly:
No one has a right to national health care. Don't tax me to pay for yours. When I cannot afford care, I will die.
Blowing gravel off rural roads
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1
Worn Saddle
|
|
Worn Saddle
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1 |
Quote:
succinctly:
No one has a right to national health care. Don't tax me to pay for yours. When I cannot afford care, I will die.
Hmm, then I suppose the "Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness" part didn't really mean life then?  Man alive, "Death, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" just doesn't have the same optimistic ring... 
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
|
|
|
 Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 269
Adjunct
|
|
Adjunct
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 269 |
Hi Guys and Gals,
I'm going to chime in on Greg's remarks here. I too was thinking the same thing as he stated with the military health care system. From the argument of a NHS I'd say the military health care (Tricare) is exactly that. Yes, we do have to wait in long lines at times, but very seldom.
Our military care system has gravitated over the last 20 years toward HMO style care plans and yet the price hasn't put me in the poor house as of yet. Though, in 10 months I'll get the pinch from that. My point is, even with all the retiree's and active duty in the military health care system I feel it does a pretty decent job of taking care of folks.
Our deductible PER family is still only $300 a year and our drugs very very reasonable off base and free on base. I think it is sad how big insurance companies and drug manufaturers have such a strong lobby to keep US citizens from being able to buy medications where and when they want from outside sources.
Trumpy
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 11,126 Likes: 13
Should be Riding
|
|
Should be Riding
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 11,126 Likes: 13 |
Quote:
Quote:
succinctly:
No one has a right to national health care. Don't tax me to pay for yours. When I cannot afford care, I will die.
Hmm, then I suppose the "Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness" part didn't really mean life then? Man alive, "Death, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" just doesn't have the same optimistic ring...
These are individual rights, not to be imposed on others. I have the right to Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness...Within my means, not at the expense of society. 
Blowing gravel off rural roads
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954 |
Quote:
Frivolous lawsuits should be discouraged and any suit being found to be frivolous should then be billed to the person bringing suit.
CAREFUL there Ian, now you're treading on DANGEROUS grounds (infringing on the Rights of Litigation Lawyers to make money!)
I agree 100%, I really would like to hear more from people under those types of systems, and DUH, a bunch of my friends are German, so I shall ask them a few questions (cost per month as a percentage of income, overall impressions of their system, pros and cons) I know very well how our system works, how about a word in from our other members here in the UK, and the EU who have National Health Care plans, what say you?
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954 |
Quote:
You have made my point. As soon as the government takes over the responsibility for healthcare they will also claim the right to mandate behavior. No smoking, require seat belts, helmets (or ban motorcycles), ban certain foods, require people to lose weight or lose benefits, mandate that companies make their employees exercise. Once you turn your obligations over to another you lose your liberties. If you turn them over to the government it’s done by statute. If you want the state to be your mama, expect to be treated like a child.
Sorry Larry, I saw Johns post as being pretty favourable to NHS, not being a con. Maybe I misread it! Luckily, we don't have problems HERE with people imposing smoking bans, helmet laws, and seatbelt laws...
And hey, what's this got to do with my Mama? 
Last edited by Bayern710; 04/03/2008 12:24 PM.
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,823
Learned Hand
|
|
Learned Hand
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,823 |
Quote:
I guess my biggest question at this point is how does system of national health care prevent you from seeking the level of care that you can afford if you can in fact afford to pay more for better doctors or better insurance? Do the Canadian or British systems prevent you from seeking superior care if it's available and you have the means? I don't know that's why I ask.
no many canadian... come to the usa for care.. because they some times set on a waiting list for long times.. so they come here to the us to get done what they need...the system up there limits them on who they can see..where here in the usa if i want to see a doctor out west i can.. or one right here in NY i can.. they have to see the doctor there gov tell them to see..
Ed
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,527
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,527 |
Military care systems are not perfect but at least one can say that they are handled for the most part by "professional" people.
I would not expect to see a country wide program for everyone be handled the same way....especially when it comes to appointed political administrators (you know thats the way it will work)
High paid appintees will be given those jobs by whoever the current power elite is and as a result at least some of those positions will end up filled by people who have no idea but were simply on some candidates list of those he or she needs to "reward"
And then....thats where bureacracy will take over and make any civilian enterprise in current existence seem like efficiency personified.
"Proud to be an Infidel" ... "100% pure American Jingoist"
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 485
Adjunct
|
|
Adjunct
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 485 |
What is the definition of insanity?
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 211 Likes: 2
Adjunct
|
|
Adjunct
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 211 Likes: 2 |
I am happy with our health care system. As I have just been through chemo I has used it extensively over the last couple of year. Financially our contribution is small and not noticed off the pay cheque. You may have a long wait in emergency. But this is more related to a shortage of doctors. If you have a family doctor you can see him. The length of time before you do is dependent on of course what you have. You still determine how soon you see him. If he already has booking for the day then you will have to wait till he can squeeze you in. If it can wait a day or two that is how you make your appointment. If you don't have a family doctor you can go to a walk-in clinic. These are numerious but because there is no appointments made there are wait times.
Cat scans and MRI may take 2 weeks depending on what is wrong. Exotic expensive test may requie a trip to the U.S. because the machines are booked up.
We hear horror stories of U.S. citizens loosing everything because they get seriously ill. That just doesn't sit well. We have bus loads of Americans coming up to get their prescriptions filled because they are cheaper.
Could the system be better? No doubt. But the system works.
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,877
Should be Riding
|
|
Should be Riding
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,877 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
succinctly:
No one has a right to national health care. Don't tax me to pay for yours. When I cannot afford care, I will die.
Hmm, then I suppose the "Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness" part didn't really mean life then? Man alive, "Death, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" just doesn't have the same optimistic ring...
These are individual rights, not to be imposed on others. I have the right to Life, Liberty and Pursuit of Happiness...Within my means, not at the expense of society.
What if you have a neurological disorder potentially caused by the "environment" you live in that was polluted by these things I DO pay taxes for? Public water and sewage for example... Am I screwed cause I chose to live here? If I don't get care, I get worse and can't work, then I can't afford care. So I should just lay here and starve to death cause I can't move?
Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,877
Should be Riding
|
|
Should be Riding
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,877 |
Quote:
You have made my point. As soon as the government takes over the responsibility for healthcare they will also claim the right to mandate behavior. No smoking, require seat belts, helmets (or ban motorcycles), ban certain foods, require people to lose weight or lose benefits, mandate that companies make their employees exercise. Once you turn your obligations over to another you lose your liberties. If you turn them over to the government it’s done by statute. If you want the state to be your mama, expect to be treated like a child.
But I thought public places like a sidewalk are government owned? And that's why we have them? Not cause they are a socialist program, so the gvt can make up whatever rules they want for them?
Benny
Black & Silver '02
Too many mods to list
Not enough miles ridden
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 820
3/4 Throttle
|
|
3/4 Throttle
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 820 |
Quote:
Do the Canadian or British systems prevent you from seeking superior care if it's available and you have the means? I don't know that's why I ask.
I get my NHS by paying my taxes and national insurance (about 25% of my top line). The company I work for provides me with Bupa Healthcare for my whole family (private), to which I pay about £400/year.
I've had private health care for the last 15 years and never used it. I prefer to use the NHS. I will obviously use Bupa if I have a serious ailment because you are dealt with faster. My father waited for a knee replacement last year... 6 months wait. He could have had it done in France in 3 weeks on their NHS. Why does everyone start bringing politics in???
Dog33, we've had a NHS since 1948,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Health_Service_%28England%29
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1
Worn Saddle
|
|
Worn Saddle
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1 |
Lacking the ability to earmark how my share of the tax pool is spent here's a thought:
Since 2000, employer-based health insurance premiums have shot up 100 percent. Wage growth has hardly represented one-fifth of that. About 10 million more Americans have joined the ranks of the 30+ million uninsured. According to at least one estimate, more than 100,000 Americans have died (Nolte and McKee Health Affairs.2008; 27: 58-71) because they lacked access to quality care, it's just one estimate but even a fraction of that's a shameful thought in the wealthiest nation on earth.
Health costs have continued their double-time march, and economists now estimate that, if left unchecked, government health spending will be about 37 percent of the GDP by 2050 (last year's number was 19% of GDP). Add in private health spending, and the Brookings Institution's Henry Aron estimates that "the income that's left over for everything else in the economy, other than taxes and private health care spending, stops growing and … actually declines."
Health reform is meaningless if it isn't actually universal, if it doesn't make the system more seamless and integrated, and if it doesn't reform the insurance industry so it can begin competing on price and quality rather than risk-shifting and denials of coverage. Even better, well planned reform will also break the link between employers and health insurance and create a public plan that can compete with private plans, so consumers can choose between health insurance that seeks profit and health insurance that seeks health.
Hey, it's the 21st Century, why not?
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2
Fe Butt
|
|
Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,096 Likes: 2 |
Ya know it never ceases to amaze me that many of those who would deny Darwinism was the basis for modern life on Earth are often the very same people who wish to practice it today.(but enough about the Kansas Board of Education)
And so, I guess this kind of debate always boils down to the "theory" that either we are our brother's keeper, or we aren't.
Yep! It seems there are, and will always be in this so-called Union either the "Go it alone" set or the "We're all in this together" set in this country, and as Kipling famously said about different cultures...."never the twain shall meet".
I personally think some combination of both public and private health insurance options would be beneficial to a much larger portion of our FELLOW Americans, but after reading this thread I doubt there would or could ever be enough consensus reached in order to achieve something along these lines.
(because of course, compromise is now a dirty word)
Yep! Just like a good Single Malt Scotch, you might call me "an acquired taste" TOO.(among the many OTHER things you may care to call me, of course)
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,518 Likes: 32
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,518 Likes: 32 |
Quote:
... how about a word in from our other members here in the UK, and the EU who have National Health Care plans, what say you?
Here in Greece we have mandatory state NHS funds that everyone subscribes to (workers and employers).
This works out to about 10-15 per cent of wages (a fixed amount for employers) but also includes a pension fund (on retirement, you get 80 per cent of the average of wages you got in the last 5 years prior to retirement). The employers contributes an additional 20 per cent (over and above what the employee pays) to an employee's coverage.
If you had asked me 10 years ago I would have said it sucked in terms of adequate infrastructure (space in hospitals, clinics) and efficiency.
Since then consecutive governments have invested heavily in both infrastructure and efficiency (all from the government's annual budget).
The doctors here have always been considered top notch (but some, and only some, have other bad habits - see below).
Waiting times are way down, a lot of new state hospitals have been added (as were several private ones years ago to cover the bad service), older one's were overhauled etc.
Medicine is subsidised, you only pay a token amount.
In the very rare cases where an ailment cannot be remedied (for whatever reason) within the country, a committee convenes and approves the funds (100 per cent medical costs to include air fares and accommodation for patient and one accompanying person) for the patient to be treated abroad.
Now the bad parts.
When the system was inefficient and waiting periods were long, the doctors where prone to accepting "tips" for giving you preferential treatment (jumping the cue on hospital beds etc.).
There are still remnants of this practice today although much rarer ... by far.
In a nutshell ... inefficiency breeds corruption.
Another negative (although a small percentage overall), certain ailments (relatively newly discovered etc.) take quite a while to be included in the coverage list.
Also, on the rare occasion that the medical personnel go on strike, the system grounds to a halt, although a predetermined number of hospitals do remain operational for emergencies (only).
Ambulance services are free, but they prioritize who they serve first (e.g. a heart attack would have priority over a crushed ankle), which could cause a delay in them getting to you.
Don't ask me how I know.
Personally, because of my travelling habits, I have (since the bad old days) always also maintained a private medical/insurance policy, but this was moreso designed to be covered if something was to happen to me abroad.
For the most part, people here have a lot of faith in the state system NOWADAYS, including myself.
I say this whilst having a strong dislike (an understatement) for politicians, civil servants (Greek ones) and state/government intervention in general.
Reading this thread and watching the US election debates on the subject, I am starting to consider ourselves priveliged (sp?).
Edit: To be succesful, these programs require government spending and need to be efficient - we used/use the media to constantly criticize the system .. and still pounce on them, even for minor issues.
It keeps them on their toes.
BTW, I consider these social programs and not socialist (Greeks, by nature, cannot be socialists ... but that's another discussion).
Bedouin.
Blessed are those eyes that have seen more roads than any man! (Homer).
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1
Worn Saddle
|
|
Worn Saddle
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1 |
Quote:
I personally think some combination of both public and private health insurance options would be beneficial to a much larger portion of our FELLOW Americans, but after reading this thread I doubt there would or could ever be enough consensus reached in order to achieve something along these lines.
Yeah, you know I thought the public plan and private plan competition fit both worlds pretty well. If you can afford it buy the best, otherwise take your place in line.
But then I'm not a big fan of the "if you can't take care of yourself you're f**k*d" go it alone concept. It seems so un-American in light of the for-the-common-good mass sacrifices our forefathers (and mothers) made to create the nation.
Quote:
BTW, I consider these social programs and not socialist (Greeks, by nature, cannot be socialists ... but that's another discussion).
Seems like I recall that maybe you guys might have invented democracy like maybe when the world was still flat?
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,026
Learned Hand
|
|
Learned Hand
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 1,026 |
To bring up being our brother's keeper as a justification for robbing us of our hard earned wages and our liberty is weak, mind numbingly so. If one even "gets" the Bible, the message that God offers is one of liberty, freedom of choice, not a forced obedience. If you believe in God, Jesus as His son, then you choose to obey, to please Him, and to be charitible is for Him. So, to help out others is a personal choice, not one to be done by others, nor by a substitute entity. Govt healthcare is an excuse( one of many ) to steal personal liberty, a scam for some to "feel" better that by taking others money, they are helping others, and in the process it is a feeble, lazy manner of charity for some, but in reality it is huge waste of resources and an afront to individual liberty, choice, and responsibility ( where an individual, if so compelled, should make his own choices to who he wishes to reach out to ).
Healthcare best done is best done by the individual. Get the govt out of it, totally, let the market determine true costs, allow individuals to shop and negotiate their care ( and be responsible for it ).
The present system, like education( the more govt involvement, the more helpful monies available, the more the tuitions and costs have soared ), has engouged itself on the regulations that create all sorts of rules that require inefficiencies to exist, drive reactive medicine over preventive, and hasnt given a reason for the paper heavy/cost heavy system to go electronic( if they go electronic, jobs could be cut, much money saved on paper not used, and information is much more at hand when needed. But at present, no updates are on hand, the system exists to feed itself, not the end user ).
Our Liberties We Prize and Our Rights We Will Maintain
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and will never be.----Thomas Jefferson
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 255
Adjunct
|
|
Adjunct
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 255 |
It is all pretty simple... weather it be health care or retirement if the people in goverment had only access to the same options regular folks have, it would be fixed pronto... instead of getting votes by helping out the downtroddin they would be helping themselfs
|
|
|
Re: Support for National Health Insurance Plan
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954
Loquacious
|
|
Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,954 |
Thanks to all of our "socialist" brothers who have chimed in here, cause now that I've heard all of your horror stories and how ungodly expensive it is, I thank my lucky stars that my health will be left in the hands of an accountant for Aetna! Whew, that was close, I was this close to moving to Canada!!! If any of you socialized guys need refuge from your plights, I have a free room available here in Connecticut! Of course, you'll need a physical first, I assume you guys have insurance or MasterCard? 
|
|
|
|
|
