 Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,192 Likes: 55
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,192 Likes: 55 |
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I’ve seen the evidence, in fact I’ve had my nose rubbed in it. But, conjecture and anecdotal stories are not really evidence. Certainly we must be especially certain of a criminal’s guilt before we put them to death. We should always look at all the evidence available and be willing set aside the death penalty if there is not overwhelming evidence of guilt. On the other hand, appeals that do not go to guilt but rather to procedure should be strictly limited and sentences carried out expeditiously. There is no legitimate reason for criminals to live on death row for generations.
Will mistakes be made? Almost certainly! Nothing done by man is perfect, but the system is now such that it will certainly be extremely rare. Over the years I had several friends and acquaintances killed in aircraft or vehicular accidents. We don’t stop flying, driving or riding because of the miniscule possibility that each time we do so may be our last. Similarly, people have spent a lifetime behind bars for crimes they did not commit. Certainly no less an injustice that being put to death. That does not mean we quit locking people away.
As for the families of people wrongly convicted and put to death, I don’t think you’ll find many. But if you do, they will at least have a cause of action and recourse to meaningful redress. Not something that can be said for the families of thousands of murder victims each year.
Some have said that the measure of a society is how it treats its criminals. I disagree, the true measure is how the victims and their families are treated and whether or not justice is done.
Like I said I wasn't taking a side just adding to what Bill was saying. I am actually for the death penalty as you should see if you read my earlier post. I also said the endless appeals should stop, I joked only half about an express lane (Ron White). I think if the evidence is overwhelming then yes appeals should be greatly curtailed.I mentioned people like John Wayne Gasey, and Jeffery Dahmer, you could add Berkowitz, Zodiak, and that guy that killed his whole family then moved away and started a new life John List I think his name was. In those cases there was no doubt and if Death sentence was handed down then in those cases maybe 1 appeal allowed then fry em. But that shouldn't be the case where the evidence is much less.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
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Will mistakes be made? Almost certainly!
Enough reason right there.
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I had several friends and acquaintances killed in aircraft or vehicular accidents
Using the power of Government to end someone's life is drastically different than one being killed pursuing an activity out of free choice.
That's not even an argument that rises to the level of a fallacy, Larry.
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but the system is now such that it will certainly be extremely rare.
That's more true today than it was many years ago, due to the review processes in place, so I agree with your statement.
My disagreement is that once is too often.
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Some have said that the measure of a society is how it treats its criminals. I disagree, the true measure is how the victims and their families are treated and whether or not justice is done.
I agree with you here too. But (you knew that was coming  ), Executing someone to atone for the death of another is approaching paganism. If there is the slightest possibility that the convicted may be innocent, he should not have been convicted in the first place. But having served on juries, I can assure you that emotions often play a stronger role than evidence.
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Similarly, people have spent a lifetime behind bars for crimes they did not commit. Certainly no less an injustice that being put to death. That does not mean we quit locking people away.
Wrongful conviction is always an injustice. However, a live inmate has a better chance of exoneration than a corpse.
Once we've killed a person, if new evidence proves his innocence, it's too late to make any kind of restitution.
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We should always look at all the evidence available and be willing set aside the death penalty if there is not overwhelming evidence of guilt.
And as this is the bottom line of my position: You actually agree with me (or vice versa if you like ).
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,284
Learned Hand
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Learned Hand
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,284 |
I saw a fantastic documentary last night:America's war on drugs:the last white hope. Sad commentary on our country's policies and dirty secrets. Very well done,very objective, but much too realistic to leave any reasonable person with much respect for all politicians and officials involved in this, very lucrative, losing battle
Strangler
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7 |
Every time a major construction project is started the builders know that a certain number of people are likely to die during the process. Whenever a large army unit jumps out of aircraft there is a good chance someone’s parachute will not open. When flu shots are given to a large population a tiny fraction of the recipients will die of reactions to the vaccine. Do we simply stop building skyscrapers, doing divisional maneuvers and giving vaccines because we can’t guarantee perfection? Like those other activities, the justice system must do it’s best to avoid errors. But, we do not abandon activities because we cannot achieve perfection. Properly administered the death penalty is the correct punishment for certain crimes and criminals. Like dropping a cruise missile on top of a terrorist hideout to kill the most evil among us, there may be collateral damage. We must do everything we reasonably can to eliminate it but we must not surrender just because we cannot achieve perfection. Once all the reasonable steps have been taken to ensure the guilt of the most heinous criminals they should be terminated. Life, and death, is filled with uncertainties and chance, and the chance of an innocent man being put to death today is microscopic. To allow the most evil people in the world to live simply because we cannot rule out every hypothetical possibility of error puts others at risk and is simply unjust. Like the contractor who builds a building, the general who orders a training exercise or the doctor who administers a vaccine, those who administer the laws must do everything to assure things go right. But we don’t stop doing what is right because we can’t achieve perfection.
As for the notion that the death penalty is somehow pagan, that is like saying breathing or child bearing is pagan. Certainly pagans did it, so what? Death as a punishment is clearly spelled out as proper in both the old and new testaments. It is certainly provided for in the US Constitution. Those who find religious or constitutional objections to capital punishment are putting a spin on the documents that those who wrote them certainly never intended.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,516 Likes: 29
Loquacious
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Loquacious
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 4,516 Likes: 29 |
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Every time a major construction project is started the builders know that a certain number of people are likely to die during the process. Whenever a large army unit jumps out of aircraft there is a good chance someone’s parachute will not open. When flu shots are given to a large population a tiny fraction of the recipients will die of reactions to the vaccine....
These (above) people undertake the potential risk of death knowingly ... not quite the same thing as the totally innocent mistakenly being condemned.
Bedouin.
Blessed are those eyes that have seen more roads than any man! (Homer).
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 879
3/4 Throttle
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3/4 Throttle
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 879 |
In the UK we have laws on the statute books for example, allowing wagon drivers to urinate up the front nearside wheel of their wagon.....and stopping us flying the Union Flag without planning permission.... We have thousands of foreigners here both legally and illegally that the EEC says we cannot deport. We have store owner that was attacked by an escaped and wanted criminal convicted of grievous bodily harm and attempted murder, who was stabbed several times but was able to turn the knife on his attacker who subsequently died, WAS ARRESTED ON SUSPICION OF MURDER ! F**K YOU MR TURN THE OTHER CHEEK, never mind the 'tarrif, forgiveness and the reforming and lets have more of the revenge and retribution.... transport them to Australia !!!!  That'll freakin' lern 'em !
Last edited by Brummie; 03/07/2008 12:02 AM.
If you do it today you MIGHT regret it. If you CAN'T do it tomorrow you WILL regret it.
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821
Bar Shake
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Bar Shake
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,821 |
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As for the notion that the death penalty is somehow pagan, that is like saying breathing or child bearing is pagan.
Sometimes Larry, I wonder if you even bother reading.
Or maybe the nuances just escape you.
My comment was someone, note the italics (well, OK, they are kind of hard to see). The implication was that some in society demand that a person die, even if convicted on less than absolute evidence in the belief that that somehow equates justice. And that is pagan.
Again your comparison of people knowingly taking chances with their lives is not a valid comparison with state sponsored execution.
And, just for the sake of argument, confining a convicted murderer for the remainder of his life also protects society.
Contra todo mal, mezcal; contra todo bien, también
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,192 Likes: 55
Fe Butt
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Fe Butt
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 23,192 Likes: 55 |
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confining a convicted murderer for the remainder of his life also protects society.
True ,but the public shouldn't have to foot the bill if the evidence is overwhelming. So I then come full circle and say fry em.
I learned all I need to know about life by killing smart people and eating their brains.
Eat right ,Exercise ,Stay fit, Die Anyway!
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,172
Saddle Sore
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Saddle Sore
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 5,172 |
Ditto. And Marilyn Manson makes me almost as sick as Charlie. 
More flags
More fun!
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7
Monkey Butt
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Monkey Butt
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,630 Likes: 7 |
Quote:
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As for the notion that the death penalty is somehow pagan, that is like saying breathing or child bearing is pagan.
Sometimes Larry, I wonder if you even bother reading.
Or maybe the nuances just escape you.
Perhaps you should consider rereading your post yourself before you get snotty in your response. The only way to read your post was that any use of the death penalty is somehow a pagan exercise. My response was that your comment is nonsense.
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My comment was someone, note the italics (well, OK, they are kind of hard to see). The implication was that some in society demand that a person die, even if convicted on less than absolute evidence in the belief that that somehow equates justice. And that is pagan.
If you can find a quote from this forum advocating the use of the death penalty for some quasi religious use please tell us about it. My comment was that a ridiculous standard of evidence is being called for by death penalty opponents. While a higher standard should be used, the requirements called for by some is simply a ruse to do away with capital punishment.
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Again your comparison of people knowingly taking chances with their lives is not a valid comparison with state sponsored execution.
Says Who? So if a child dies after a vaccine shot given in the furtherance of a public health program that is ok, but the mere thought of an innocent person being killed in the furtherance of law and justice makes capital punishment unacceptable?
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And, just for the sake of argument, confining a convicted murderer for the remainder of his life also protects society.
Except, of course, for guards and fellow inmates. Also, if the European experience is any guide, other criminals will take hostages, kill people and blow things up to get their buddies out. Dead criminals aren't worth much.
We all like to think of ourselves as rugged individualists. But when push comes to shove most of us are sheep who do what we are told. Worst of all, a lot of us become unpaid agents of whoever is controlling the agenda by enforcing the current dogma on the few rugged individualists who actually exist.
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825
"Lighten up, Francis."
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"Lighten up, Francis."
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 18,825 |
What did I miss? How did paganism get dragged into a death penalty debate? What are you guys smokin'?
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1
Worn Saddle
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Worn Saddle
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 6,432 Likes: 1 |
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an innocent person being killed in the furtherance of law and justice makes capital punishment unacceptable?
Yes. It is a total, complete injustice.
It denies justice to the victim, it denies justice to society, it allows the guilty party to escape punishment and worse yet it refutes the "rule of law" by creating another victim.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort. Herm Albright (1876 - 1944)
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Re: Now there's a record to be proud of
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 9,223
Big Bore
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Big Bore
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 9,223 |
OK, we are done here.
Bill, Larry, most of the time youse guys keep the discourse civil but why must these debates ALWAYS sink to innuendo?
[Because no one is ever going to convince anyone else of anything, so it has to devolve, either as a result of frustration or boredom - FJ]
Last edited by FriarJohn; 03/07/2008 7:34 PM.
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